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Post by theclv24 on Feb 19, 2021 11:08:09 GMT -5
This idea was planted by mattf27 last night, and now I think I have to do it.
The Problem
The premise is that once we start approaching Masters time, once again folks will start asking on twitter and reddit, "Which is the best Augusta to play?". Barstool and No Laying Up groups will also probably be sniffing around. Inevitably, the best current uncensored versions of the course will be mentioned and sniffed out by ANGC/HB, and censored once again. Not to mention, who knows what changes ANGC will cook up from year to year, requiring yet more versions of the course to be updated and released.
The Solution
What if there was one fictional course that belonged to the community, which represented the best elements of Augusta, and was immune to the constant re-shuffling, searching, and secret distributions? Will some folks complain that they want to compete on the real Augusta, and nothing else will do? Sure! For them, I'm sure there will always a version out there to be found which will satisfy the itch. For TGC Tours, however, it might be best to remove any possible spotlight directed by ANGC, both to preserve the organization and to remove any year to year confusion as to which course will be played.
(Let me just quickly mention that I know other Augusta-inspired fictional courses exist, and several of them are quite good, but none have managed to, as of yet, garner serious consideration as a permanent replacement for the Masters event in April. I understand it's a tall order.)
The Vision I've gone back over Geoff Ogilvy's hole-by-hole breakdown of the course, discussing the major strategic elements, and the overall essence of the course and the routing. I've also been looking the historical changes made to each hole. I don't believe the correct way to approach this is to copy the same routing, or to try and match Augusta hole for hole with the same designs, only slightly altered. I do believe that the goal should be to try and preserve the unique strategic decisions that the modern course offers, and to generally provide a test that requires bold and confident decisions in order to go low, while making life difficult for those who miss in the wrong places. Learning what the wrong misses are, and then avoiding them, should be a key to mastering the course.
I would love for this WIP thread to be a lively discussion about each hole and its design merits, and also a lab for seeing what kind of course the community wants to play every spring.... if that's what eventually ends up happening. If this project is seen all of the way through to the end, but never ends up replacing the desire to play the real course every April, I'm totally fine with that. It's the journey that will be most important.
The Question With all of that said, the first hurdle might be the biggest for me, mentally, and is the subject of the poll. The intent of the project is to replicate and replace the existing Augusta course for use at TGCT. Does that mean it should replicate the modern course in all ways? That would mean green and lush, impeccably manicured surfaces, azaleas in full bloom, rounded bunker edges, perfect pine straw areas.
Or should this be used as an opportunity to take the course back to its roots? Shaggy MacKenzie bunkers, more wandering and abstract green designs, a more natural environment, likely with fewer trees.
I see the merit in both, and I certainly see a way in which the modern conditioning and presentation of the course could mostly be retained, while mixing in some of the MacKenzie elements that have been lost over time. Mostly, however, I want to make sure that a majority (I certainly don't expect all) are pleased with the style that is chosen. Without the community's support, I don't think the vision comes to fruition, and it just becomes yet another Augusta-inspired course, and nothing more.
That's the end of my initial write-up. I've been taking lots of notes, and I intend to type them up and either post them here, and/or post a link to a Google doc so everyone can follow along. As I mentioned, I really hope this space offers up a lively discussion about all aspects of Augusta, as well as a place to contribute to the routing, design, and final product of this project.
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Post by mde103 on Feb 19, 2021 11:42:52 GMT -5
I voted for the manicured style, but I would like to expand a bit on that. My vote was mainly centered around the aesthetics and bunker style of the current edition of Augusta National. I don’t typically like the manicured look, but for an Augusta recreation, I would prefer it to look as close to what we see on TV as possible.
With that being said, I would prefer all of the narrowing and tree planting measures that have been taken since 97 to not carry over (ex. 11th hole fairway prior to early 2000s).
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Post by rob4590 on Feb 19, 2021 11:53:32 GMT -5
How about a mirrored version? So the first has the fairway bunker on the left and doglegs slightly left round it? The 2nd is a dog leg right, with Sunday pin back left? 13 would be a dogleg sharply right...
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Post by mattf27 on Feb 19, 2021 12:05:42 GMT -5
Having done a similar exercise recently, I'm happy to offer any thoughts, lessons learned, etc. from Georgia Match Club if you wanted them. The file is yours as well if you wanted to poke around it as well.
Also, as far as the look, I'd personally prefer the scruffier, original look, but I think the current manicured version is probably the "better" choice, as it's what most people are familiar with and associate with Augusta. I'm so excited to see what you come up with!
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Post by hallzballz6908 on Feb 19, 2021 12:52:18 GMT -5
After seeing photos and drawings of what the original Augusta looked like, I’d love to see someone with your skill attempt to recreate the OG Augusta but at more modern lengths. I feel that most of the changes made to the course over the last 20 or so years have essentially ruined the course in terms of what Jones’s original vision for the course was unfortunately. What used to be an intriguing strategic course has been turned into another cookie cutter tour course that is too long and too narrow. Interested to see where you go with this👍🏻.
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Post by theclv24 on Feb 19, 2021 13:00:18 GMT -5
Having done a similar exercise recently, I'm happy to offer any thoughts, lessons learned, etc. from Georgia Match Club if you wanted them. The file is yours as well if you wanted to poke around it as well.
Also, as far as the look, I'd personally prefer the scruffier, original look, but I think the current manicured version is probably the "better" choice, as it's what most people are familiar with and associate with Augusta. I'm so excited to see what you come up with!
You know, I hadn't remembered off the top of my head, but I had an inkling that you made Georgia Match Club. But then you sounded kind of down on it last night, I didn't know you were being modest.
Let me take a look at it again, about to hop on twitch.
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Post by theclv24 on Feb 19, 2021 14:24:21 GMT -5
Not going entirely off of voting so far, but also not wanting to sway future voting...
I've been thinking since I did my write-up, and I wonder if the two styles aren't just two different projects. One fictional course resembling the modern aesthetic, and one restoration that is a little more of an attempt to simply modify the current holes.
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Post by sroel908 on Feb 19, 2021 14:27:17 GMT -5
I voted for the original look. I absolutely loved that Tiger Woods 14 Masters Edition included the 1934 version of Augusta, as well as the "current" version of it. They are two very different courses, in both look and how they play. Would love to play a classic version of ANGC in PGA 2K21.
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Post by hickoryghost on Feb 19, 2021 19:24:54 GMT -5
Original Augusta to the inch, but with some back tees tossed in. That would be amazing.
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Post by j3ngs_ on Feb 19, 2021 20:28:34 GMT -5
Wish I wouldn't have voted prematurely. Voted for current Augusta but GOD DANG does classic augusta do something to me
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Post by blueblood1995 on Feb 19, 2021 20:39:05 GMT -5
Original Augusta to the inch, but with some back tees tossed in. That would be amazing. Agree with this and also remember like sroel908 the "old" Augusta in TW. It was a joy to have both in game. I think your latest version A Big Golf Weekend 2020 is as good as it gets so an historic "scruffy" recreation but with some back tees to suit the modern tech would be amazing. Old Augusta on EA Sports TW...
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Post by tpetro on Feb 20, 2021 1:37:15 GMT -5
Current Augusta planting scheme? Could be worse. Current Augusta bunker aesthetic? Please kill me.
For what it’s worth, Dylan and I have always kicked around the idea of restoring Augusta and even did 2 or 3 holes of work towards that on your file. Would love to get back into it post-WCoD.
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Post by theclv24 on Feb 20, 2021 14:48:27 GMT -5
Current Augusta planting scheme? Could be worse. Current Augusta bunker aesthetic? Please kill me. For what it’s worth, Dylan and I have always kicked around the idea of restoring Augusta and even did 2 or 3 holes of work towards that on your file. Would love to get back into it post-WCoD.
Go on, I'm listening....
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Post by theclv24 on Feb 21, 2021 20:51:18 GMT -5
Here are some notes. This is a combination of stuff that I've picked up from Geoff Ogilvy, some stuff from the detailed changes to the course over the years, and some that I've just deduced myself. These are just things that I think are important features of the course/each hole, and that a new fictional course should attempt to capture.
Some of the main strategic elements and best/worst misses are covered by Ogilvy, and some are just my own pure conjecture. So I would say with confidence that they are maybe, 90% accurate?
Overall Course/Routing The area around the 2nd green and 7th green is like a focal point. The course plays to it and then away from it several times.
If you want to win, you need birdies and cannot play safe. You have to take risks on nearly every hole if you want to make a birdie. Playing safely for par is rarely good enough, and can get you into more trouble on some holes.
The trees are mostly in groups or bunches, rather than long lines. This allows for longer sightlines. Combined with large fairways, gives the place a sense of scale, and yet intimate with other holes and action nearby.
The stretch of 4,5,6 can play very difficult based on the pin, but 6 and 7 both have an easy pin. Can change the character of the stretch with each day. The difficulty of the course can be manipulated by the pins.
Short is usually a better miss than long. Some holes or pins have a reverse tendency, though.
Front 9 1- Major false front plus steep runoffs in all directions. Intense green undulations. Uphill. Need to stay below the hole for a birdie chance, bringing false front into play. Above the hole or missing the green is in trouble. Main strategic element: Challenging the false front to stay below hole. Best miss: middle of green. Worst miss: Long
2- Green majorly left to right. Right bunker is ok, left miss not as good. One of the few holes without much score variance, basically a 4 or 5 hole. Main strategic element: Staying right/below hole. Best miss: right bunker. Worst miss: left bunker/left pin. Long.
3- Missing the green in the wrong spot can leave you dead. The only way to score is to take on the risk of leaving the approach short. Any short shots that come back down the slope have to take it on again for a chance at par. McKlay Kidd recommended improvement: Move tees forward. Main strategic element: Challenging the front slope of the green. Best miss: Long left? (not many) Worst miss: Short of green.
4- Modeled after Eden hole at Old Course. Main strategic element: Stay below hole. Best miss: short left of pin. Worst miss: Long right/above hole
5- Modeled after Road Hole at Old Course. Main strategic element: Challenge bunkers/left side for best angle. Best miss: Left/back bunker Worst miss: Short and right, or long over back
6- Front left pin is one of the easier on the course. High right tier pins among the most difficult. A Redan, but “much more attractive” than North Berwick - MacKenzie. Main strategic element: Find correct section of green. Best miss: High tier - long Left pins - middle/front left. Worst miss: Short right long left
7- Pins on the left sit on a bowl that slopes in both directions. Those are the hard pins. Pin in the bowl is easy. Changes the character of the hole depending on the day. Intended to replicate 18th at Old Course. Bob Jones wasn’t satisfied with the result. Remodeled green intended to replicate 8th at Pine Valley. Bill Bergin recommended improvement: Remove middle greenside bunker. Main strategic element: ? Best miss: Front bunkers. Worst miss: Long
8- Not many doubles, not many eagles. Basically a 4 or 5 hole. Uphill to a receptive punchbowl green. A hook is tough to hit on an upslope, which is needed on the approach. Long right past the mounds can make it difficult to have any chance at birdie. Par is not so hard though. More risk off of the tee makes for an easier second shot, less risk makes a harder 2nd. Fairway bunker was originally a center line hazard. Bruce Charlton recommended improvement: Shift tees to right. Main strategic element: Angle of attack. Best miss: right. Worst miss: left.
9- Too far right off the tee leaves downhill lie to uphill green. Encourages players to pull a shot left into the trees. Draw green with fade lie in the fairway. Doak recommended improvement: Restore MacKenzie boomerang green. Main strategic element: Reaching flat lie in fairway/staying below hole. Best miss: right Worst miss: Long
Back 9 10- A low draw lie into a green that needs a high fade. Main strategic element: Staying below/left of hole. Best miss: middle of green. Worst miss: Long right. Left down hill.
11- Trouble is left, so aim right. But a right miss makes it hard to get to many of the pins. Low point on the course, so chipping uphill to a green that runs away to the water. Short right feels like the bailout, but mounds there are unpredictable, could propel a ball into the water. Had a center line bunker in 1935, but then removed. Golfers said they could not see it. Recommended improvement: Remove right trees. Main strategic element: Land between water and pin. Best miss: Right. Worst miss: Left.
12- Worst misses match righty misses: Long left and short right. Angle of the green is everything. Green has continually shrunk over past 60 years. Recommended improvement: Move tees back. Best miss: middle of green or front bunker.
13- Left is the big miss off the tee, players liable to drive through the fairway out of fear of left side. Closer to the water is the best result, flatter lie, better angle, and closer. Farther from the water leaves hook lie to fade green, at a worse angle, and farther away. Left miss at the green leaves uphill chip to downhill slope towards water. The safe play for a 5 is easy, but takes risk for a 3-4. Would play much differently as the 4th hole as originally designed, less urgency at that point in the round. Recommended improvement: Move green back 50 yards. Main strategic element: Challenge creek for best approach. Best miss: Right off tee. Left of green. Worst miss: Left off tee. Water on approach.
14- Long right is the miss, which is not a common miss for a righty. A chance at birdie requires risking a shot that comes up short. Almost a 3-tier green. Draw to keep tee shot in fairway, leaves fade lie into a draw green. 2nd shot has to be precise, could leave a difficult putt that is massively uphill, or treacherous downhill putt. Main strategic elements: Fade lie into draw green, sloped green with small targets and harsh miss short. Based on 6th at old course. Best miss: Long right. Worst miss: Long left, or short.
15- Anything over the green is preferable to short, including wedge shots in, but leaves uphill chip shot to a green that runs away to water. Fast right to left green, gets shallower as you move to left. Left side has more front to back tilt, so green is like potato chip. Left pins seem like they need approach from right, but impossible to hold. Layups should be as far left as possible. Main strategic element: Avoid water short of green. Best miss: Long. Worst miss: Short.
16- 2 days of fun pins and 2 days of extremely difficult pins. Past pin is tough in any location. Long left and short right, righty misses, are bad. Front tee typically used for front right pin. Land in back right bunker with back right pin, can’t make par. Main strategic element: Stay below hole. Best miss: Bottom left shelf. Worst miss: Right bunker or water.
17- Uphill, need to use driver to try to get to flat landing area. Right pins, long is bad, uphill chip to downslope. Left side pins, long is the miss. Potato chip green, fashioned after 14th hole at Old Course. Left side putts to right pins are deceptive due to slope towards creek. Best miss: Long left or middle. Worst miss: Short left or long right.
18- Hard drive for drawers. The fairway bunkers are deep and can make it difficult to reach green. Hitting off upslope can lead to right miss. Right bunker is a tough miss to most pins. Sunday pin offers about a 30ft circle to land shots in for a birdie putt chance. Main strategic element: Finding fairway off of the tee. Hitting correct level of the green. Best Miss: Long for back pins, anything in lower bowl. Worst miss: Left. Right bunker for lower pins.
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Post by theclv24 on Mar 3, 2021 11:15:29 GMT -5
Ok I'm going to crowdsource some thinking here to you guys, so hopefully you can help.
I think I'm set on two project. The second project is 1934 Augusta at modern lengths. The first project is current Augusta, but with some elements of 1934 added in, plus any other suggestions that I've seen or heard to make the course better, and perhaps even my own (or your own) tweaks that make sense.
Here's where I've started on the first hole. For reference, here's the 1934 diagram. Edit: Here's the modern hole for comparison
Currently the main strategic objective of the first hole is to find the green and stay below the hole. The false front is the major feature, along with steep runoffs on all sides. The fairway bunker historically has not been something to be cleared off of the tee (although these days I think some players can), so most players just try to stay somewhere on the fairway, usually left of the bunker. In appearance at least, the greenside bunker seems to suggest that going left off of the tee means a more difficult approach shot. Only a front left pin really brings the bunker into play though, and I think most players fear a short right miss more than a miss in the bunker.
Here is how my line of thinking went. If the green is really supposed to be one where coming in from the right is the line of charm, two changes need to occur. First, a potential drive over the fairway bunker needs to be a realistic option, given the proper conditions. Therefore, I moved the back tee up a little bit. I think you still need some wind to help, but now the first tee shot of the day is not automatic, and a decision needs to be made. Second, the green needs to actually be slightly more intimidating from the left than from the right. Sticking with the aesthetic of the modern course, I removed the left bunker, smoothed the face a little bit, and turned it into green surface, much like the 5th or the 14th. Now instead of a fairly predictable bunker shot, short misses on any side face an uphill chip or putt to a tricky green.
Lastly, in a nod to 1934, I added the original left bunker back in. As it says in the description and in subsequent year descriptions, the bunker played a role back when the game was less aerial, but quickly became obsolete. My bunker, therefore, is not so much a strategic element as it is aesthetic. The modern greenside bunker does provide framing for the fairway bunker while standing on the tee, so I wanted to keep some of that visual element in play. And while it's not a factor in the game, where the scout cam exists, and is a diminishing factor in real life with range finders, I believe MacKenzie was a fan of deception bunkers much like Ross was, so this would be in keeping with his design philosophy.
My goal with bunkers is to try and mimic some of the shapes of the original bunkers, but without the rustic edges. Sort of like softened versions of the originals. The modern fairway bunker on the first is fine to me, as it actually has some character, so I didn't touch that one. The new left bunker is a scaled back version of the 1934 bunker in the diagram.
Thoughts on the changes? Any ideas for a strategically interesting hole that I'm not considering? Any changes aesthetically that would make the hole more visually appealing?
I'll update the planting at some point. I just haven't decided if I want to do it hole by hole, or wait until the end.
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