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Post by PithyDoctorG on Mar 12, 2021 17:22:42 GMT -5
Now that I'm in the PC club, I would love be a part of the greens committee after you get the initial version out. A word of warning, I won't hesitate to clean out the overplanted areas brought on by Hootie and the Faz this century! I also still have my PS3 and a copy of TW14 any time somebody needs to do a deep dive into a particular hole from the original design. Sorry, green committee is for tree huggers only.
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Post by adamhill413 on Mar 14, 2021 8:42:51 GMT -5
I like incorporating Alister MacKenzie into the name somehow. "Mackenzie's Orchard" or "Alister Arboretum" come to mind Mack Daddy’s Peach Tree Ranch Fruitland Manor Golf Club? - named for the clubhouse.
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Post by knickerbocker on Mar 14, 2021 10:11:15 GMT -5
I love the removal of the back bunker on 5. Augusta used to be about Width and Angles, but with all the planting they have done and technology, it has lost that. They need to firm up the fairways the dry out Augusta for it to get its teeth back, but then it won't look as nice on TV.
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Post by theclv24 on Mar 14, 2021 12:38:59 GMT -5
Looking for ideas on the 10th hole. I've been toying around with PithyDoctorG's idea of making it a short hole, with drives having to go left, right, over, or short of the bunker (I'm considering restoring the original 10th to be off the table for this version, because it was an unsustainable hole). I guess I'm having a mental block. Something feels off to me about turning one of the longest and most difficult holes on the course into a short hole, like I'm fundamentally altering the entire back 9 (excuse me, second 9) by making a change like that. On the other hand, if I keep the hole long, I'm struggling with any way to make the hole more interesting.
I have a more definitive plan for the 11th, so I'm going to keep working on it while you all brainstorm on the 10th.
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Post by knickerbocker on Mar 15, 2021 9:24:46 GMT -5
Looking for ideas on the 10th hole. I've been toying around with PithyDoctorG 's idea of making it a short hole, with drives having to go left, right, over, or short of the bunker (I'm considering restoring the original 10th to be off the table for this version, because it was an unsustainable hole). I guess I'm having a mental block. Something feels off to me about turning one of the longest and most difficult holes on the course into a short hole, like I'm fundamentally altering the entire back 9 (excuse me, second 9) by making a change like that. On the other hand, if I keep the hole long, I'm struggling with any way to make the hole more interesting.
I have a more definitive plan for the 11th, so I'm going to keep working on it while you all brainstorm on the 10th.
It is hard to make the 10th more interesting, because it one of the few holes left at ANGC that has not lost its Width and Angle magic. Tee shots down the left are much benefited leaving a shorter shot and a much better angle to the green. Shots down the right leave longer shots landing on a downslope with the large drop off behind. On TGC/2K21 - you still receive a fair amount of run off the right side, so I would actually think about making the hole longer or softening the slope on the right hand side to have more mid/long irons into the green. The 11th needs serious fixing. They ruined that hole.
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Post by PithyDoctorG on Mar 15, 2021 10:21:15 GMT -5
Looking for ideas on the 10th hole. I've been toying around with PithyDoctorG 's idea of making it a short hole, with drives having to go left, right, over, or short of the bunker (I'm considering restoring the original 10th to be off the table for this version, because it was an unsustainable hole). I guess I'm having a mental block. Something feels off to me about turning one of the longest and most difficult holes on the course into a short hole, like I'm fundamentally altering the entire back 9 (excuse me, second 9) by making a change like that. On the other hand, if I keep the hole long, I'm struggling with any way to make the hole more interesting.
I have a more definitive plan for the 11th, so I'm going to keep working on it while you all brainstorm on the 10th.
My main logic on that one was that this course absolutely NEEDS another short par four, and given that 3 is now drivable, there's not much testing of precision wedge play and the associated strategies. This was one where it didn't feel like the green was especially set up for a longer shot (like 5 or 11 or 14), and that huge bunker is just sitting there begging to be brought into play; we should be able to tweak things such that safe or thoughtless play off the tee can lead to an awkward second shot. And given that 9 and 11 are both fairly long holes (plus you're hitting a long club into 8 and 13), a shorter hole here would seem to fit with the flow of the routing.
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tdawgcincy
Weekend Golfer
Posts: 149
TGCT Name: Tony Theobald
Tour: Elite
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Post by tdawgcincy on Mar 15, 2021 11:21:10 GMT -5
A little more green in the back right behind the bunker could certainly make things interesting. Forcing more strategy off the tee to try and get as far left as possible.
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Post by rob4590 on Mar 15, 2021 13:31:33 GMT -5
Could you camber the tee shot landing area to be more like the area around the bunker in the bottom pic? So that the tiger line shot hooked down the left gets the bounce forward down the fairway - while the bail out tee shot is bounced right into the rough / trees a lot more than it is currently (especially in game - where it just goes down the right of the fairway leaving wedge to the green) Force people to attempt the hero shot (or the standard red fast!!!) to find the fairway.....?
Or move that (fairly useless) bunker back up the hill into driving distance.......?
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Post by knickerbocker on Mar 15, 2021 15:23:25 GMT -5
Looking for ideas on the 10th hole. I've been toying around with PithyDoctorG 's idea of making it a short hole, with drives having to go left, right, over, or short of the bunker (I'm considering restoring the original 10th to be off the table for this version, because it was an unsustainable hole). I guess I'm having a mental block. Something feels off to me about turning one of the longest and most difficult holes on the course into a short hole, like I'm fundamentally altering the entire back 9 (excuse me, second 9) by making a change like that. On the other hand, if I keep the hole long, I'm struggling with any way to make the hole more interesting.
I have a more definitive plan for the 11th, so I'm going to keep working on it while you all brainstorm on the 10th.
My main logic on that one was that this course absolutely NEEDS another short par four, and given that 3 is now drivable, there's not much testing of precision wedge play and the associated strategies. This was one where it didn't feel like the green was especially set up for a longer shot (like 5 or 11 or 14), and that huge bunker is just sitting there begging to be brought into play; we should be able to tweak things such that safe or thoughtless play off the tee can lead to an awkward second shot. And given that 9 and 11 are both fairly long holes (plus you're hitting a long club into 8 and 13), a shorter hole here would seem to fit with the flow of the routing. I agree that another shorter Par 4 would be great. I think 7 and 17 are better candidates by widening the fairways and moving the tees up. 10 has always been a long par 4 and has kept its strategic value over the years.
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Post by theclv24 on Mar 15, 2021 19:10:15 GMT -5
As far as short holes go, I like a lot of what is going on here.
I don't think that necessarily precludes 10 from playing both short or long either. Augusta doesn't like the multiple tee thing, but I have no problem with flexible tees. Combined with the tee trick in the designer, holes could play quite different from day to day. I haven't implemented it, but for a 10th hole playing short, I also like the idea of some more back right green as a pin placement. So far I'm finding that I'm a little apprehensive to go too deep on any single hole, out of fear of that I might run out of time. So I'm mostly sticking to the most obvious changes for now, or the ones that I know I can pull off quickly. I'm almost to 13, though, and have to make a decision soon whether or not I want to take on the task of moving the green 50 yards deeper and rerouting the creek.
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Post by PithyDoctorG on Mar 15, 2021 19:25:49 GMT -5
As far as short holes go, I like a lot of what is going on here.
I don't think that necessarily precludes 10 from playing both short or long either. Augusta doesn't like the multiple tee thing, but I have no problem with flexible tees. Combined with the tee trick in the designer, holes could play quite different from day to day. I haven't implemented it, but for a 10th hole playing short, I also like the idea of some more back right green as a pin placement.
This would actually be kind of similar to what they did with #7 when they restored LACC (North). There's a back right pin that works well for the tee where it plays as a short par 4 but the left pins are used when it's playing as a super-long par three.
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Post by theclv24 on Mar 16, 2021 12:20:29 GMT -5
Sending out a new batch of betas soon.
11th hole Wiped out the whole batch of trees along the right that shouldn't be there. Added some random mounding to influence lies.
Going off an idea from Kyle Franz, I adjusted the mounding in front of the green. I reduced the major mounds that kick very short shots into the water, and replaced them with a little bit of a kicker mound close to the green. These were supposed in the original design, and were designed to help low draws going around the water, rather than directing shots into the water. But they also prevented balls that came in from that angle from reaching back right pins. Franz believed one spline actually ran into the green. I tried recreating what I could tell from the shading in the 1934 diagram, although time will tell how these play and how they should be adjusted.
The bunker didn't serve much purpose to me, nor did the trees, so I got rid of them. I wanted anything that reaches this back right/back area of the green to run for days. The result is a 20-30 yard pitch that needs to clear the green edge, but then runs towards the water. The back slope isn't enough to send balls into the creek, but it will travel a few yards away from the green edge, leaving an uphill chip that runs away.
12th hole
I kept the members tee while moving the pro tee back farther to a shot of 170-180 depending on the pin. I imagine utilizing both tees, with the front tee for a pin right behind the front bunker. I reshaped the front bunker, as the little tongue was always awkward to recreate in that space close to the water. Now the bunker lip runs entirely along the green edge with no tongue. I also reshaped the back bunkers into one, as the two bunkers in back weren't much related to any of the other bunkers on the course, except for maybe the third hole, another set of out of place bunkers.
I added a little more surface to the green in back, along the left, and on the front right close to the water.
You'll also see that I stuck with the planting theme of, if there is something to see in the distance, let's see it! There are only a few places along the perimeter where I blocked off sightlines. ANGC has been encroaching on their neighbors at Augusta CC for so long, the least they could do is not try to block them off with trees.
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Post by PithyDoctorG on Mar 16, 2021 13:17:00 GMT -5
Sending out a new batch of betas soon.
11th hole Wiped out the whole batch of trees along the right that shouldn't be there. Added some random mounding to influence lies.
Going off an idea from Kyle Franz, I adjusted the mounding in front of the green. I reduced the major mounds that kick very short shots into the water, and replaced them with a little bit of a kicker mound close to the green. These were supposed in the original design, and were designed to help low draws going around the water, rather than directing shots into the water. But they also prevented balls that came in from that angle from reaching back right pins. Franz believed one spline actually ran into the green. I tried recreating what I could tell from the shading in the 1934 diagram, although time will tell how these play and how they should be adjusted.
The bunker didn't serve much purpose to me, nor did the trees, so I got rid of them. I wanted anything that reaches this back right/back area of the green to run for days. The result is a 20-30 yard pitch that needs to clear the green edge, but then runs towards the water. The back slope isn't enough to send balls into the creek, but it will travel a few yards away from the green edge, leaving an uphill chip that runs away.
12th hole
I kept the members tee while moving the pro tee back farther to a shot of 170-180 depending on the pin. I imagine utilizing both tees, with the front tee for a pin right behind the front bunker. I reshaped the front bunker, as the little tongue was always awkward to recreate in that space close to the water. Now the bunker lip runs entirely along the green edge with no tongue. I also reshaped the back bunkers into one, as the two bunkers in back weren't much related to any of the other bunkers on the course, except for maybe the third hole, another set of out of place bunkers.
I added a little more surface to the green in back, along the left, and on the front right close to the water.
You'll also see that I stuck with the planting theme of, if there is something to see in the distance, let's see it! There are only a few places along the perimeter where I blocked off sightlines. ANGC has been encroaching on their neighbors at Augusta CC for so long, the least they could do is not try to block them off with trees.
Any thoughts on expanding the front left of the green into its own little wing (may require shrinking the bunker a tiny bit)? Could make for a fun pin combo with the front tee.
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mayday_golf83
TGCT Design Competition Directors
Posts: 2,279
TGCT Name: Jeremy Mayo
Tour: Elite
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Post by mayday_golf83 on Mar 16, 2021 13:31:43 GMT -5
Can confirm that the Bryson line has been taken away on 9 with the addition of trees. All in on the tee shots on 10 and 11 as well.
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Post by knickerbocker on Mar 16, 2021 14:51:45 GMT -5
I love the changes to 11.
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