|
Post by tpetro on Mar 3, 2021 11:44:56 GMT -5
I don't think the encroaching trees fit with the Mackenzie ethos enough to be considered a necessary part of the modern aesthetic. Probably best to go off the tree planting shown in the '34 diagrams. Will also open up some big views, which the modern iteration of Augusta lacks despite the incredible piece of rolling land it sits on.
|
|
|
Post by theclv24 on Mar 3, 2021 12:17:53 GMT -5
I don't think the encroaching trees fit with the Mackenzie ethos enough to be considered a necessary part of the modern aesthetic. Probably best to go off the tree planting shown in the '34 diagrams. Will also open up some big views, which the modern iteration of Augusta lacks despite the incredible piece of rolling land it sits on.
Yeah I already added a little more fairway along the left side to encourage a drive to the tougher angle. The right side offers more opportunity for opening up, as the trees along the left were originally planted to factor into play on the 9th, where players were going down the 1st fairway to get a better angle into the boomerang green at the 9th. I'm planning on the boomerang green, so whatever trees factor into preventing that option will have to stay.
|
|
|
Post by theclv24 on Mar 4, 2021 14:03:11 GMT -5
Replanting the first hole begins at the tee, so I figured it was time to finally update the clubhouse.
|
|
|
Post by theclv24 on Mar 4, 2021 14:15:10 GMT -5
While I continue to plant the first hole, I think a good debate about the 2nd hole is in order regarding the fairway bunker. I think the evolution of the bunker is captured well here:
I pretty much like the modern 2nd hole. I like an eagle opportunity so early in the round. I also like that the opening to the green is on the left side, but the safest miss to almost any pin is in the right bunker, hitting back into the slope of the green. Getting too aggressive and going left or long can be trouble, especially to left pins or the one in the middle of the back shelf.
With that in mind, a right fairway bunker doesn't make much sense here. I'm with Ben Hogan. I don't want an overly penal hazard though. I'm thinking a bunker on the inside of the dogleg that is just ever so slightly a hazard, so that if you're nerve isn't there and you bail out right, you lose your angle into the green.
Am I giving away too much? If it was a larger bunker like in 1934, but placed to require a heroic carry, that means you either go for it all or have to bail right no matter what. This means two heroic shots for an eagle chance, but probably many fewer attempts at it.
That's why I lean towards my first idea. What say you?
Edit: Actually re-reading the 1934 description about a bad bounce going left down the hill, that is sort of the ultimate penal situation for this hole. Regardless of where a fairway bunker is, you're really only giving up your chance at eagle if you hit into it. However, if you go too far left and into the trees, then you are possibly giving up your chance at birdie if you can't get it out and down by the green somewhere. Should I be thinking of more of a contour hazard on the left, bringing trees into play? Or does something too penal take away the excitement of the hole?
|
|
|
Post by blueblood1995 on Mar 4, 2021 16:15:33 GMT -5
While I continue to plant the first hole, I think a good debate about the 2nd hole is in order regarding the fairway bunker. I think the evolution of the bunker is captured well here:
I pretty much like the modern 2nd hole. I like an eagle opportunity so early in the round. I also like that the opening to the green is on the left side, but the safest miss to almost any pin is in the right bunker, hitting back into the slope of the green. Getting too aggressive and going left or long can be trouble, especially to left pins or the one in the middle of the back shelf.
With that in mind, a right fairway bunker doesn't make much sense here. I'm with Ben Hogan. I don't want an overly penal hazard though. I'm thinking a bunker on the inside of the dogleg that is just ever so slightly a hazard, so that if you're nerve isn't there and you bail out right, you lose your angle into the green.
Am I giving away too much? If it was a larger bunker like in 1934, but placed to require a heroic carry, that means you either go for it all or have to bail right no matter what. This means two heroic shots for an eagle chance, but probably many fewer attempts at it.
That's why I lean towards my first idea. What say you?
Edit: Actually re-reading the 1934 description about a bad bounce going left down the hill, that is sort of the ultimate penal situation for this hole. Regardless of where a fairway bunker is, you're really only giving up your chance at eagle if you hit into it. However, if you go too far left and into the trees, then you are possibly giving up your chance at birdie if you can't get it out and down by the green somewhere. Should I be thinking of more of a contour hazard on the left, bringing trees into play? Or does something too penal take away the excitement of the hole?
What about a bunker inside left and a cambered fairway right so that if you end in the rough/pine straw/trees you can still knock a shot back out long down the fairway but on the preferred side coming in. So it may be penal but not as much as going left into the trees? Or perhaps this takes away too much of the current character of the hole in terms of fairway movement?
|
|
|
Post by theclv24 on Mar 5, 2021 14:07:13 GMT -5
What about a bunker inside left and a cambered fairway right so that if you end in the rough/pine straw/trees you can still knock a shot back out long down the fairway but on the preferred side coming in. So it may be penal but not as much as going left into the trees? Or perhaps this takes away too much of the current character of the hole in terms of fairway movement?
I just looked and the fairway slopes from right to left. It's not major, and I think it's accentuated some by the buildup of the right bunker, but it makes sense given the dry drainage ditch that runs between 2 and 8 along the left.
It's not a bad idea, although the current slope provides a draw lie for a green that really requires a fade, which is kind of an Augusta trait. My gut is telling me I should probably retain that.
I'm going to think on it awhile longer and work on the 9th hole, as I can't really make progress on the planting between 1 and 9 without doing so.
|
|
|
Post by Q on Mar 5, 2021 15:07:57 GMT -5
I do love how open the left side is in the original version of hole 2. Agreed on the fairway bunker needing to go
|
|
|
Post by theclv24 on Mar 6, 2021 4:19:45 GMT -5
As promised, I wanted to restore the horseshoe/boomerang green on the 9th, much like Tom Doak has recommended. Not only is it original to the course, but it's sort of a Mackenzie trademark in my state, with boomerang greens at both Crystal Downs and the University of Michigan, so I had to go with it.
Compared to the diagram, this new green has a little more width on the right side, retaining almost all of the surface of the modern green while adding the left tongue. It is slightly less angled from the fairway than the modern green, though.
Augusta, and probably more specifically Clifford Roberts, leaned on Perry Maxwell throughout the years for making changes, and a lot of Maxwell's changes were just horrendous (mainly the 9th and the 7th, the 10th green was a pretty good change). Hard to imagine this was the same guy who created Prairie Dunes.
After orientating the green this way, it really highlighted how much the current green, and now the right side of this green, has 3 distinct tiers, all with very straight dropoffs from tier to tier. That's a very modern look and doesn't feel Mackenzie at all. So I leaned on the 11th and 16th greens at Pasatiempo, which are also 3-tier greens, but also cascade from left to right and back again. So this green has 4 areas now, the left tongue, a back right tier, a middle left tier, and a front right tier.
Other than the back right tier, each one has slopes that can be used to bring shots near the hole, especially the middle left and front right. However, these slopes also mean that if you get above any of the tiers you might be screwed. There are creative ways to manage shots like that, but mindless shots will usually end up at least one tier below, if not 50 yards short of the green.
Working backwards, I never understand why this hole needs a narrow chute to drive through, or so much forest on the right. The hole sits perfectly on the land, so if you want to bail right, bail as far as you want. It's just going to leave you a longer shot in. And if you want to hug the tree line on the left for a shorter approach, go right ahead. It just leaves you a worse angle in to every pin except the left. The only reason any trees on the left need to exist at all is to keep players from going down the first fairway.
I've begun opening things up on the right, but it won't be finished until I work on the 8th hole. The 8th will also cut into this patch of trees from the other side, so it will be significantly smaller than it is today.
|
|
|
Post by joegolferg on Mar 6, 2021 11:04:27 GMT -5
How about a mirrored version? So the first has the fairway bunker on the left and doglegs slightly left round it? The 2nd is a dog leg right, with Sunday pin back left? 13 would be a dogleg sharply right... This would require a compete rebuild, though. Whereas I'm guessing the other proposed versions would be built upon the file that already exists. Is a nice idea, though.
|
|
|
Post by mattf27 on Mar 6, 2021 12:31:29 GMT -5
Are we already on the 9th hole already? Everything about this looks awesome, and I can't wait to play it.
|
|
|
Post by theclv24 on Mar 6, 2021 13:17:27 GMT -5
Are we already on the 9th hole already? Everything about this looks awesome, and I can't wait to play it.
Yep, already on hole 9 and humming along!*
*holes 2-8 haven't been touched yet
|
|
|
Post by theclv24 on Mar 7, 2021 13:35:30 GMT -5
I'm going to put the extensive WIP updates on hold, as I will now attempt to complete this by the end of the month to be used for the Masters. That means I have to work at a clip of about just under one hole per day (luckily I finished the 8th last night, so only 15 holes to go).
I imagine this will be a 2021 version, and then I can touch it up and implement feedback over the next year for the 2022 version to make it better. To help expedite things, I'll be looking for beta testers along the way. PM me if interested. I'll start circulating one after 6 holes are ready, probably.
Last item of business, I need a name. I really liked jacking the name The Tree Farm from Zac Blair, given the property's history as a nursery, but I've started not feeling great about stealing that name. I'd love to play off the nursery theme, possibly taking the name of the previous property holder, Fruitland Nursery, but that's not appealing to me very much. Even something brief like The Nursery doesn't feel appropriate. I'd love some suggestions. My only caveat is that I don't want National anywhere in the name.
|
|
|
Post by gamesdecent on Mar 7, 2021 14:57:42 GMT -5
I like Fruitland Tree Farm for a name.
Also willing to help playtest this now that I’ve turned tempo off and don’t thoroughly hate playing this game.
|
|
|
Post by hallzballz6908 on Mar 7, 2021 15:15:04 GMT -5
I’d like to submit “Old Dominion Club” as a name and would be interested in playing some betas if needed.
|
|
|
Post by rob4590 on Mar 7, 2021 15:17:18 GMT -5
Given whatever name you use is effectively an alias......why not incorporate either Alias or Alibi into the course name? Or just use the title of this thread as the name
|
|