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Post by Q on Mar 7, 2021 15:45:27 GMT -5
I like incorporating Alister MacKenzie into the name somehow. "Mackenzie's Orchard" or "Alister Arboretum" come to mind
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Post by theclv24 on Mar 8, 2021 10:03:14 GMT -5
A micro-update here. I figured it might be helpful to provide at least a little info, in case someone sees something really dumb that I'm doing and can point it out to me before I invest too much time in the wrong direction. Hopefully that's not happening, but this is a super quick update so I don't feel like it's adding too much to my workload.
Name update, I combined two ideas that I've received, and going with Mackenzie's Tree Farm for now. Yay, nay, or keep working on it?
8th hole: In keeping with a theme that will exist throughout the course, I added more fairway. More fairway means more runout, which means more chances to put yourself at a bad angle.
I added more fairway on the left, enticing you to play farther away from the bunker, giving you a much worse angle. On the other side, I pruned some forest in order to add a right side fairway, making the bunker a centerline hazard as originally intended. Successfully placing a tee shot here gives a prime angle in. This side of the fairway is higher than the left, though, so it kicks more balls into the bunker. Go too far right, and you are blocked by trees. So far in my play attempts, as a fast swinger (and therefore a hooker), going right results in trouble for me more times than it pays off. When it pays off, though, this actually has a chance of being an eagle hole.
Hopefully these changes make the hole a 3-6 hole, rather than simply the 4-5 hole it mostly is today.
2nd hole: I went with the inside dogleg bunker. It's a more mini version of the massive bunker in the 1934 design. Even though I expanded the fairway by a few yards on the right, the inside bunker does make this a narrower drive. There's a couple of interesting developments, though.
The first is that the inside bunker had to be built up to make it visible from the tee. Now I wouldn't attempt to clear the bunker without a tailwind, but in the right conditions when I have gone over it, it makes for a huge kickboard down the hill, to the tune of about a 390 yard drive. It now becomes a massive risk/reward drive.
The other scenario, now that drives down the right side are more common, becomes the possibility of left side pins actually becoming eagle chances with the better angle in. In keeping with the 1934 design, and for the following reasons, I removed the left side bunker and made it a swale with short grass, along with adding a sliver of new green on the left.
Here's what this does: From a visual standpoint, it's much more appealing now to have a go at the two left side pins. With the bunker there and a long club in, it seems rather useless to go anywhere other than middle of the green, maybe try to draw it in if you are feeling confident.
When going for the left side pins, I find it very easy to end up left or long, and with short grass there the ball tends to run farther away from the surface than if it simply got trapped in a bunker. Now you are hitting a longish pitch to a green than runs severely away. Especially for the back left pin which has a backstop all around it, you are looking at an easier 4 by laying up to the right and drawing a pitch back to the hole, than if you went for the pin in 2 and ended up left or long.
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Post by theclv24 on Mar 9, 2021 6:55:07 GMT -5
6 holes are done-ish, so I'll get myself organized at some point today and distribute betas to those who requested it.
3rd: There are several different takes on what would make this hole better. Most involve getting rid of the unfortunate Nicklaus bunkers. I went with David McKlay Kidd's idea of moving the tee up to 320 to make it a truly driveable par 4. And while I liked DMK's overall concept in Golf Digest for redesigning the hole, his idea had 5 bunkers scattered all over. It's probably a fine hole by itself, but it doesn't fit with the rest of Augusta.
So I took one of DMK's bunkers, in front of the green by about 30-40 yards, and then I redesigned the Nicklaus bunkers into one bunker, similar to the sketch that Troy Vincent provided to Golf Digest.
I added more fairway short and left of the bunker, so the very short iron layup playing the angle in is now an option, and I also added more fairway on the right. The goal is to entice you to play up along the right, attempting to curl one around the bunker and onto the green.
I'm trying to tempt you into either leaving one up on the right hill, which is a nightmare trying to stay on the green, or into collecting a shot in the valley before the green. I've successfully curled one onto the front left of the green on many occasions, though, so it's entirely doable. The one thing that the new bunker adds, or takes away rather, is the automatic layup off of the tee. Now you might see 4 different decisions here on 4 different days depending on the wind.
7th: This was a tough one to make a plan for, since the 1934 hole is completely gone. The original hole had no bunkers, and was intended to be a short hole that imitated the 18th at St. Andrews. Bobby Jones did not like the hole. I don't know if it was any good or not, but I question how good the 18th at the Old Course is as a hole to emulate anyways. On the other hand, the hole that was created and exists today sticks out as a sore thumb. Other than the fun Sunday pin, this hole is otherwise entirely forgettable.
The first thing I did is widen the hole, as this is among the most overplanted holes on the course. If you are going to have a wide and shallow green, the least you can do is provide enough fairway to try and play the angles on your approach shot.
It's been recommended that the hole, and front pins in particular, might be more interesting if the front middle bunker was removed, allowing for at least a little ground game. After removing that bunker, I played around with creating a tongue of green there, very slightly how the 1934 green had a front tongue. Honestly, the result is a terrifying approach shot.
The Sunday pin is no longer just a hit and giggle shot. You can either score big, come up short, or go long if you are scared of being short, which might be even more terrifying.
I removed the back bunkers and contoured the area to retain shots a little more, and created a tongue in the back left for a pin. I think this creates a little more nuance to the hole, rather than the current strategy of hit it straight, then hit it straight and try to hold the green. It's more forgiving in some areas, while more punishing in front. In all honesty, hopefully it's polarizing. At least it will be a memorable hole then, as opposed to what it is now.
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Post by rod81simo on Mar 9, 2021 7:16:43 GMT -5
I like this concept of creating your own ‘ultimate’ Augusta a lot Craig and the redesign of the holes so far for the most part will really make it feel like something that everyone knows but not really! Great job!! Look forward to seeing more.
I’d be happy to offer some opinions/suggestions through your beta if you wanted another set of eyes.
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Post by theclv24 on Mar 9, 2021 10:53:37 GMT -5
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Post by tpetro on Mar 9, 2021 10:57:32 GMT -5
Sure, I'll take a peek
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Post by mattf27 on Mar 9, 2021 11:42:34 GMT -5
I can take a look at it as well if you wanted.
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Post by PithyDoctorG on Mar 9, 2021 13:18:53 GMT -5
Ok so far I have beta requests from gamesdecent , Q , and rod81simo . Anyone else? They are going out now. I'm in on the beta testing. Regarding the name, any thoughts on a James Brown tie-in? He grew up in Augusta. He is also the Godfather of Soul, and I think you could argue that this project is looking to inject some "soul" into the modern day Augusta. None of the possibilities based on his most famous songs resonate at first glance, but just another possible direction.
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mayday_golf83
TGCT Design Competition Directors
Posts: 2,279
TGCT Name: Jeremy Mayo
Tour: Elite
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Post by mayday_golf83 on Mar 9, 2021 14:19:08 GMT -5
I'd also be happy to take a look!
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Post by theclv24 on Mar 9, 2021 14:25:10 GMT -5
Ok so far I have beta requests from gamesdecent , Q , and rod81simo . Anyone else? They are going out now. I'm in on the beta testing. Regarding the name, any thoughts on a James Brown tie-in? He grew up in Augusta. He is also the Godfather of Soul, and I think you could argue that this project is looking to inject some "soul" into the modern day Augusta. None of the possibilities based on his most famous songs resonate at first glance, but just another possible direction.
The Dr's Brand New Bag?
Talking about the good doctor Mackenzie of course. (If it needs an explanation it can't be good)
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Post by theclv24 on Mar 10, 2021 9:51:34 GMT -5
I have a lot of notes so far from the beta testing. Like I told Petro, due to the time constraints I might not be able to make wholesale changes to holes right away before the first publish, but much like Augusta makes changes year to year, I get to implement changes too, so something that doesn't make it now could be in next year.
As far as immediate issues to address, I believe I have solved the 9th tee shot issue, at a slight detriment to the overall aesthetics of that area. I worked on it for a long time and tried to make it look as good as I can while still being functional.
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Post by theclv24 on Mar 12, 2021 14:27:14 GMT -5
This is the opposite order that I worked on them in, but here's updates for 4-6
Hole 4 My least favorite hole on the course, and a real headscratcher on how to make it better. So here's a couple of things.
First of all, it's probably too long and too shallow, it can't be both at the same time. I kept the tee box as is, but moved the tee to the front, which is around 225-230 to most pins. I also added another tee box at around 205, just a little to the right. Here's a big difference from Augusta, which has just two tee boxes per hole. They are really limiting their ability to switch up how holes play by doing this. I definitely envision using this new tee on the front pins.
Second, I know it's a par 3, but this hole is so narrow and so packed with trees. The more I open up this course, the more I think Augusta is doing itself a disservice by not having less planting and more views across the course. I get that they have little enclaves throughout the tournament where people can feel some "privacy", whatever good that is for at a golf tournament, but it's detrimental to the course. This 3-hole loop and the new views are incredible to me.
Third, this is supposed to be inspired by the Eden hole, so why not angle the green a little bit like the real hole and give it some more depth? By turning it a little and giving it some more depth, there are now a lot more shots in to the green available.
Last, I trimmed the front right bunker and sloped the right edge, making the back right pin less insane. You can now land it short and work it in, but there's also a false front there if you don't make it.
5th hole The Road hole should play like a Road hole.
The tee is moved back to near where the new modern tee is, meaning a long club is needed on approach. Back to one bunker, a la 1934. There is plenty of fairway to the right, just drawing you in. It's possible to get over or around the bunker on occasion, because if you can't take a bold route on a Road hole, it's not a Road hole.
You will also notice the greenside bunker is gone. If you play it safe off the tee and you are hitting from the wrong angle to a really shallow green, you know what would be comforting? A greenside bunker that prevents shots from running to far away, and leaving an uphill shot back to the pin. That safety net is gone now.
6th hole I couldn't find much to change. I made the bunker more like 1934. I added some front right green, but it's not pinnable. It's just closer to the original, and maybe sends short right shots farther down the hill. One thing that I would love to add is a unique 4th pin, so there aren't two on top of the back right ledge, but I couldn't find any obvious moves to make.
Like 4 and 5, most of the work here was redoing planting, and clearing out the excess. This corner of the property was just thick with trees and bushes.
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Post by mattf27 on Mar 12, 2021 14:55:29 GMT -5
Had a couple thoughts. First, if you're running short on time, would having other folks help with the file be useful? And second, I'm curious on what other folks think about the similarities to the real life course. While we'd obviously want to keep it close to the original, I'm also worried that there's not enough changes to the landscape to make it distinct, and therefore avoid any issues with it getting removed.
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Post by theclv24 on Mar 12, 2021 15:59:43 GMT -5
Had a couple thoughts. First, if you're running short on time, would having other folks help with the file be useful? And second, I'm curious on what other folks think about the similarities to the real life course. While we'd obviously want to keep it close to the original, I'm also worried that there's not enough changes to the landscape to make it distinct, and therefore avoid any issues with it getting removed.
I'm not too worried at this point about the course being removed. The trouble doesn't usually start until someone like Barstool gets ahold of a course, usually in response to people asking, "what's the best Augusta?" around this time of year. I don't see too many people outside of TGC Tours clamoring about a course that is similar to Augusta but every hole is somewhere between just slightly different and very much different. If anything I would see the Barstool crowd labeling it a bad attempt at Augusta and moving on.
For the first question, I think both yes and no. For the sake of getting this one out in time, it might be useful to have a single decision maker for now, especially since I'm ahead of pace, with 9 holes left to go in 19 days or so. Going forward, I absolutely see this as TGCT's course, and accordingly there should be a greens committee making updates year after year. There's value to me, though, in simply pulling the trigger on this first course and getting it out there to establish a baseline that can be improved on, rather than getting caught in the minutiae on a short deadline.
With that said, anything is possible between now and then. I'll keep my head down and keep hammering away, while casting a wide net with the betas for the most feedback possible.
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Post by mctrees02 on Mar 12, 2021 16:41:53 GMT -5
Now that I'm in the PC club, I would love be a part of the greens committee after you get the initial version out. A word of warning, I won't hesitate to clean out the overplanted areas brought on by Hootie and the Faz this century! I also still have my PS3 and a copy of TW14 any time somebody needs to do a deep dive into a particular hole from the original design.
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