Auto Promotion/Demotion on All Tours - Thoughts!?

[gmg]

I would like to see the inactive players have their card removed then having to play QSchool again. ( ie. player miss 3 cuts on the euro tour and get demoted to web - yes, but a player misses 3/4 months and still on the euro tour  ? )

[dh-nufc]

What about this for a suggestion for all tours. This is a mixture of other peoples suggestions and one or two of my own mixed together.
The more I read this the more I'm convinced my promotion idea is good but demotion needs some more working out!!!

CC-Z may need to be different due to the number of participants in there

Promotions

Top 3 mandatory promotion
Positions 4-10 optional promotion (You can put in your profile if you would take a chance if given)
3 x top 10. mandatory Battlefield Promotion

Once promoted you have 5 weeks grace before any demotions occur. You no longer need to perform on 1 week.

Demotions

Create a form table for each tour which will be on a rolling 5 week format. Your top 3 weeks would make up your position. This is to accommodate players who can't play 5 out of 5 weeks. If you happen to miss more than 2 weeks you would still have a chance if you played well. You would not be at disadvantage if you missed 2 weeks.
This will be used to demote all players not in the designated number of participants for a tour. Some weeks it will be higher than others.


Promotions and demotions stop for the last 4-6 weeks of the regular season.

Doing it this way would ensure that the right number of people are on tours, it also makes promotion easier, filling the top tours as needed(The web is so strong, look at how well promoted played do)
It would make it exciting for more people, seeing a table with the cut off line each week and seeing what you needed to do to stay ahead of it.
This would negate the need for an inactive rule as you'd be demoted anyway due to your position.

[gmg]

Jan 13, 2016 8:36:54 GMT -5 gmg said:

I would like to see the inactive players have their card removed then having to play QSchool again. ( ie. player miss 3 cuts on the euro tour and get demoted to web - yes, but a player misses 3/4 months and still on the euro tour  ? )

Then there is the crossover element. I would have made the cut last week if there was no PGA crossovers on the euro tour

[BMann1976]

Yes, please to all of this. Thank you.

[djdavefl]

My 2 cents on the subject. As a very low ranked Euro Tour player, under this proposal I would have been relegated to the Web.com tour.

I fought hard to win my card in the opening season, and to keep it for this season. Of my missed cuts the majority have been by a stroke or two, so I am "in the mix" and feel that I can keep up.

Rather than the demotion be mandatory for missing consecutive cuts, it should be auto-approved if requested.

I do not have the skill to compete with Sweeney and the rest, and I know I will never win an event on tour, but by God I want to be in the field.

While I realize others may wish to feel they have a chance to win each week, and missing cuts is not fun for them. Then by all means allow them to request demotion after three strikes.

I prefer to stay where I am and fight for cuts each week.

[Moe Slorkman]

To be fair the majority of this thread if not all and 80% of the Web are saying make it mandatory and/or more open to get bodies up the Tours!

Don't know when/if this will be called as a decision but on the back of it its what the people want.

[billybudd0623]

I agree with Dave Mills that if you are on the PGA/Euro tour now that you should not be demoted unless you request it. On the other hand if I wasn't competitive there, (battling for cuts or better) I would want to go down a rung.
When we made the Euro/Pga roster for this year, it was supposed to be for the entire season. I do agree that inactives should be demoted, and worthy Web guys should be promoted. At one time, you really needed to register early for an event to assure that you were in the field.
Now we have late registrations that I don't really care for. Fill up the Euro/PGA rosters as needed.

My 2 cents.

[nantez88]

Not sure demotions from pga would solve the problem in web,in fact I think it will make it even harder for current web players to get promoted as ex pga/ Euro players would be competing for 5 spots again and trying to get their cards back. Simple solution imo forced promotion in web unless it is too late in the season or else instead of 5 spots make it 10. The lads in web have made some great suggestions, especially the drop down box where players can say yes or no to an exemption and then the exemption gets passed on to the next best finisher in 6th, 7th and so on... and if its a 3 way tie for example it will go to countback to decide who gets the exemption.
I think this is what the majority of web ( judging by the poll)...wants ....that's all I personally want to see anyway

[phoenixjay]

Jan 13, 2016 12:13:39 GMT -5 nantez88 said:

Not sure demotions from pga would solve the problem in web,in fact I think it will make it even harder for current web players to get promoted as ex pga/ Euro players would be competing for 5 spots again and trying to get their cards back. Simple solution imo forced promotion in web unless it is too late in the season or else instead of 5 spots make it 10. The lads in web have made some great suggestions, especially the drop down box where players can say yes or no to an exemption and then the exemption gets passed on to the next best finisher in 6th, 7th and so on... and if its a 3 way tie for example it will go to countback to decide who gets the exemption.
I think this is what the majority of web ( judging by the poll)...wants ....that's all I personally want to see anyway

10 spots to go up in web and 10 in cc-a. And i agree about filling up the pga/euro tours then get the promotion/demotion working so the same goes up that is coming down and keep the top 2 competitive then fill up the web and have a better promotion amount from the cc

[silap]

Thanks for bringing this up Tim!

I'm going to be honest with you all .. this last month I thought I might quit or pauze my TGC Tours career. Why? Well I feel a bit stuck myself.
My TGCT weeks look like this:
- Top 5 - 20; good week
- Top 40; mediocre week
- Top 70; bad week
- Missed Cut; not going to happen.
It shows that you can get stuck at many levels .. for some it's missing cuts week after week and for me it's basically being close to goals in the good weeks but never close enough to reach them.

I found some interesting quotes I'd like to comment on:

1. Robert Karlsson
: Not a fan simply because I think one of the key "values" of TGCT is that it follows in many ways the real world structure. Don't see the longer time periods as an issue but rather a strength. Keeps it from being just another gaming league.

+1 Robert. Going back and forth between Tier 1 and Tier 2 tours mid season doesn't reflect the real world of golf. Sponsor exemptions set aside. 

2. David Brown: I'm a mid level Euro player and I do battle to make cuts and have been fortunate to make most, but I did miss two in a row early in the year. I'd have hated to have been demoted after I had spent the whole year in the Web working up the money list to lose it in three weeks.

Seems to me that you really earned you spot on the Euro Tour. Forced demotion after 3 consecutive strikes would be very harsh.

3. Nick Weisgerber: This is interesting. I am currently on the Euro tour and probably don't belong there. I have made 1 of 7 cuts so far I believe, and 3 or 4 of those missed cuts were by a stroke or two.

Well Nick, In my opinion you do belong. It's unfortunate to miss cuts by one or two strokes most weeks. The reason is this, you're battling against the same bunch of players every week

4. Damon Lowenberger: I don't know if changing this addressed the problem that the top 10 or 20 guys are almost always going to win and that for a lot of the middle guys there isn't whole lot to play for, especially once you kind of plateau in the WGR.

You're right .. there isn't much to play for. Kind of the heart of my personal issue (You do realize you're in the top spot after two rounds on the PGA Tour this week    )

To answer your questions Tim:
1. We put in the promotion/demotion rules for ALL TOURS.
Voluntary promotion (sponsor exemption and such) YES, if there's room in the next tier. I know there's now (Euro Tour for example), but there shouldn't be (much) room.
2. We enforced all exemptions to play on a higher tour the follow week. No optional exemptions across the board.
No! If players are put in let's say the Web.com Tour, they should be able to end on top of the leaderboard when the season ends if that is their choice. If they want to be promoted, go ahead. If they want to stay, let them stay. Forcing them will lead to people leaving our Tours. 
3. We add in demotion strikes to PGA/EURO/WEB for missed cuts.
No, but please add demotion strikes for people not finishing round 3 and 4 after making the cut or for not teeing off in the first place. Come on people you got a whole week to get in those rounds. And if you do get demoted in a season, you cannot get promoted in the same one. Whew... got that off my chest now  
4. If you make cut on pro tours, it clears strikes.
Maybe... (see #3)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In my (not so humble anymore) opinion the answer to all of the above is quite simple. Mandatory sit-outs, max. number of tournaments a year etc.
Want to keep it real? Golfers don't play 50 tournaments a year. In fact a lot of the 'Machines' in real life play less than the average Joe Golfer. Because they can.

You, me and 95% of the players are battling against the same 'demons' week in week out. Let me choose my demons!

For example. Every player gets to play 32 tournaments per season (including Majors/WGC's/Playoffs ...) 
The 'Machines' are likely to choose the bigger tournaments (especially on the Euro Tour).. and Average Joe get's the choice of joining (risk of missing the cut) or choosing a tournament with a smaller purse and get a better result.
But no matter what tour you're on; you will be avoiding the better players sooner or later, if that's the choice for you. 

The Tier 1 Tours will be able to cater 180 - 200 players each I think (didn't do the math yet). And if the field does not fill up .. let Webbers join the tournament if they so choose. They just found themselves a Sponsor Exemption.

Sure .. we're going to miss out on 20 weeks a year. What to do with those? 
I'm pretty sure this creative community will think of something. Organize matchplay tourneys, country club vs. country club matches in the near future etc. Some might even like a weeks rest every now and then. I really don't think this is a problem.

Well, that's it for now .. Good topic. I'm sure the board will choose wisely!

[mrooola]

Jan 13, 2016 15:35:35 GMT -5 silap said:

Thanks for bringing this up Tim!

I'm going to be honest with you all .. this last month I thought I might quit or pauze my TGC Tours career. Why? Well I feel a bit stuck myself.
My TGCT weeks look like this:
- Top 5 - 20; good week
- Top 40; mediocre week
- Top 70; bad week
- Missed Cut; not going to happen.
It shows that you can get stuck at many levels .. for some it's missing cuts week after week and for me it's basically being close to goals in the good weeks but never close enough to reach them.

I found some interesting quotes I'd like to comment on:

1. Robert Karlsson
: Not a fan simply because I think one of the key "values" of TGCT is that it follows in many ways the real world structure. Don't see the longer time periods as an issue but rather a strength. Keeps it from being just another gaming league.

+1 Robert. Going back and forth between Tier 1 and Tier 2 tours mid season doesn't reflect the real world of golf. Sponsor exemptions set aside. 

2. David Brown: I'm a mid level Euro player and I do battle to make cuts and have been fortunate to make most, but I did miss two in a row early in the year. I'd have hated to have been demoted after I had spent the whole year in the Web working up the money list to lose it in three weeks.

Seems to me that you really earned you spot on the Euro Tour. Forced demotion after 3 consecutive strikes would be very harsh.

3. Nick Weisgerber: This is interesting. I am currently on the Euro tour and probably don't belong there. I have made 1 of 7 cuts so far I believe, and 3 or 4 of those missed cuts were by a stroke or two.

Well Nick, In my opinion you do belong. It's unfortunate to miss cuts by one or two strokes most weeks. The reason is this, you're battling against the same bunch of players every week

4. Damon Lowenberger: I don't know if changing this addressed the problem that the top 10 or 20 guys are almost always going to win and that for a lot of the middle guys there isn't whole lot to play for, especially once you kind of plateau in the WGR.

You're right .. there isn't much to play for. Kind of the heart of my personal issue (You do realize you're in the top spot after two rounds on the PGA Tour this week    )

To answer your questions Tim:
1. We put in the promotion/demotion rules for ALL TOURS.
Voluntary promotion (sponsor exemption and such) YES, if there's room in the next tier. I know there's now (Euro Tour for example), but there shouldn't be (much) room.
2. We enforced all exemptions to play on a higher tour the follow week. No optional exemptions across the board.
No! If players are put in let's say the Web.com Tour, they should be able to end on top of the leaderboard when the season ends if that is their choice. If they want to be promoted, go ahead. If they want to stay, let them stay. Forcing them will lead to people leaving our Tours. 
3. We add in demotion strikes to PGA/EURO/WEB for missed cuts.
No, but please add demotion strikes for people not finishing round 3 and 4 after making the cut or for not teeing off in the first place. Come on people you got a whole week to get in those rounds. And if you do get demoted in a season, you cannot get promoted in the same one. Whew... got that off my chest now  
4. If you make cut on pro tours, it clears strikes.
Maybe... (see #3)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In my (not so humble anymore) opinion the answer to all of the above is quite simple. Mandatory sit-outs, max. number of tournaments a year etc.
Want to keep it real? Golfers don't play 50 tournaments a year. In fact a lot of the 'Machines' in real life play less than the average Joe Golfer. Because they can.

You, me and 95% of the players are battling against the same 'demons' week in week out. Let me choose my demons!

For example. Every player gets to play 32 tournaments per season (including Majors/WGC's/Playoffs ...) 
The 'Machines' are likely to choose the bigger tournaments (especially on the Euro Tour).. and Average Joe get's the choice of joining (risk of missing the cut) or choosing a tournament with a smaller purse and get a better result.
But no matter what tour you're on; you will be avoiding the better players sooner or later, if that's the choice for you. 

The Tier 1 Tours will be able to cater 180 - 200 players each I think (didn't do the math yet). And if the field does not fill up .. let Webbers join the tournament if they so choose. They just found themselves a Sponsor Exemption.

Sure .. we're going to miss out on 20 weeks a year. What to do with those? 
I'm pretty sure this creative community will think of something. Organize matchplay tourneys, country club vs. country club matches in the near future etc. Some might even like a weeks rest every now and then. I really don't think this is a problem.

Well, that's it for now .. Good topic. I'm sure the board will choose wisely!

Well.. even if this is a lot different than the opinions I put forward in this thread earlier, this actually makes a whole lot of sense. I liked it all except the "let webber join" part. It would be better to fill the tours first Imo in some way faster than we are doing now. I'm going to let this sink in a bit before making any further comments in this matter.

[silap]

Jan 13, 2016 16:14:08 GMT -5 mrooola said:

Jan 13, 2016 15:35:35 GMT -5 silap said:

Well.. even if this is a lot different than the opinions I put forward in this thread earlier, this actually makes a whole lot of sense. I liked it all except the "let webber join" part. It would be better to fill the tours first Imo in some way faster than we are doing now. I'm going to let this sink in a bit before making any further comments in this matter.

Thanks Ola.
What I meant by 'let webber join part' is, if the field isn't full yet he/she can seize the opportunity to play a Tier 1 tourney and earn a Tier 1 card if requirements are met. 
There is a chance that some tournaments don't fill up easily when players have to plan their schedule. Open spots equals chance for a Web.com player

I agree with you on the part that the tours should be filled first .. without force

I'll still have to face these 'Machines' every now and then .. and that's a good thing. Majors, WGC's .. who doesn't want to play in those tournaments.
I just don't want to meet all of them (or half of them) every single week.

[mcbogga]

Mandatory sit outs with entry caps based on ranking would add schedule management. I'm all for it. Plenty of side tourneys going on to keep people busy - or why not tee it up on the TST?

Also would lead to more balanced fields and minor tourneys being minor.

[yaters]

What if, instead of 3 missed cuts in a row you had a season tally. For example, maybe everyone starts with +5 and if you get to a -3 or some other metric, you get demoted. That prevents a couple of bad weeks from resulting in demotion. It gives you time to get used to the tour you are on if you are new. It emphasizes consistent play (good or bad) a little more than streaky play (good or bad).

Those numbers are just hypothetical. But if you started at +5 you are getting a grace period. You miss those first 5 cuts and it is time to improve or you are getting close to being demoted. And maybe by week 20 you are more steady and have built up your positive number a bit. Or, by Week 20 you have made only 5 cuts out of the 20. Again, hypothetical numbers and maybe they are too severe or too lax. Or maybe different tours have a larger starting positive level.

Just thinking out loud...

I understand the point about real life though - that's a valid view in my opinion too.

I've enjoyed reading everyone's comments on this. Interesting situation for sure!

[Deleted]

I said my feelings on web exemptions in the web forums.

Top 5 get mandatory exemptions onto their tour of choice for the next week. Needs to be mandatory to keep the flow going through the tours and get everyone at their required skill level. Exemptions then stop around July as from July onwards its a money list race to earn that PGA/Euro Card. Top 25 regular season money list earn PGA/Euro Card like real life (instead of last years top 10). Rest of cards given in web tour finals.

As for Demotions from top tours. I feel 3, maybe 4, straight missed cuts and you get demoted. Until July time (same time as exemptions stop). From there you keep your PGA/Euro card until seasons end. Be interesting to see how many people would have been demoted under this criteria this season, although I'm sure they would have tried that extra bit harder in the 3rd week if these were the rules.

Also, there needs to be more punishment for not completing your rounds. I registered for this weeks tournament but I'm not entering my scores because I gave up halfway through the 2nd round due to toothache (hated the course). What's my punishment? Would it go down as a missed cut?

Ditch late registration as it's open for abusing the system. You have more than enough time to pre-register. You forget? Tough tittes, you'll miss that week. Take your medicine and I'm sure you'll remember to register next time.