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Post by Lowenberger on Jan 12, 2016 20:10:19 GMT -5
Personally think its ok as is, but no big issues with this. At the moment I think I'd be mad if I got demoted because of 3 bad rounds after working so long to get to the PGA, but maybe at that point I'd have a different opinion.
I don't know if changing this addressed the problem that the top 10 or 20 guys are almost always going to win and that for a lot of the middle guys there isn't whole lot to play for, especially once you kind of plateau in the WGR.
To address that, I think it'd be fun to just have monthly standings (mentioned in the suggestions thread as well) to compete on. You could even divide the monthly standings into flights to give the mid to lower tier guys something compete for. Could even hand out trophies that wouldn't be that far out of reality (golfer of the month, or most improved golfer, etc.)
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Post by yaters on Jan 12, 2016 21:06:28 GMT -5
I like it. I like the fact that all tours would have the same rules, no matter what those rules become. The only exception I feel would be automatic PGA or Euro card for a win on the Web. Just my personal opinion, but I think those should be earned.
How would it work for taking a break or not registering for consecutive weeks?
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Post by Doyley on Jan 12, 2016 22:18:23 GMT -5
How would it work for taking a break or not registering for consecutive weeks? Wouldn't change - would just go on inactive list after 4 consecutive weeks like you do now. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2016 23:37:12 GMT -5
I'm all for moving up the players that should be at the top, and making tours more balanced. However, In reality there are only a handful of players that win all the top tour events. So unless you made the top tours with 30-40 players in them, there aren't that many new players that can compete with the top players anyhow. I'm a mid level Euro player and I do battle to make cuts and have been fortunate to make most, but I did miss two in a row early in the year. I'd have hated to have been demoted after I had spent the whole year in the Web working up the money list to lose it in three weeks. I think these demotIons are fine, but start after say 3 months so new rookies can get used to the harder courses and life on tour. Also, players inside a certain ranking on the money list and WGR should be excluded from this. The money cutoff should match the number that are scheduled to retain their card at the end of the season as it is now. Top 75?
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Post by mrooola on Jan 13, 2016 0:30:42 GMT -5
1. We put in the promotion/demotion rules for ALL TOURS.
I think this is only logical, but I also do have my concerns. See question 3 for the concern part. It's true what Robert says about the pro tours mimicking real life and that is somewhat a good feature also. However. 1 year in gaming is a lot of time and I believe that putting players in the tour they belong in will benefit TGCtours far more than the real life aspect of things. I'm all for demotion strikes on top tours. I'm guessing that some behind the scenes testing would be needed so that the demotions don't over-weigh the promotions as the competition would become even tougher on the top tours a couple of weeks after implementation. If the players who does not really belong in the top tours get demoted it will be even harder to get promoted. If demotions from the PGA and Euros are implemented I'd like to see an increase of exemptions from Web too keep the flow of players more consistent.
2. We enforced all exemptions to play on a higher tour the follow week. No optional exemptions across the board.
THIS! I would however want to see this become optional in web (if web stays in its current form) and cc-a late in the season to not ruin someones seasonal progress on their respective tour.
3. We add in demotion strikes to PGA/EURO/WEB for missed cuts.
This is somewhat the same question as 1, but there are some big differences to discuss. How many missed cuts before demotion for example? 3?
The pro tours are different than CC. If you get demoted in CC you are faced with somewhat lesser field the next week when it comes to talent, but you are still competing towards the same goal. The Money you earn in CC-C is less than in CC-B or CC-A, but money earned is still counted as one by the end of the season towards that same goal. PGA / Euro and Web have different leaderboards though so a demotion from the PRO tours to Web or Web to CC would have a far greater impact towards the end of the season and on any players as an individual. Maybe I don't understand how the Top tours work completely, but If demotions are implemented on Top Tours I would want you to consider Web to be more of a minor league towards the pros than a PRO tour of its own. This would perhaps be a bit of a killer for Web, but if Web worked for the PRO Tours more in a manner that CC-B works for CC-A the impact of a demotion would be less and it could be repairable for a player good enough and dedicated enough to make it back up.
4. If you make cut on pro tours, it clears strikes.
Sounds reasonable
To sum it up for me:
Yes I think promotions and demotions should be across the board OR we keep Amature and PRO tours separated as they are today but add promotions and demotions from pro tours to Web. This would need a change on the Web.com format perhaps, but I'm all for that. Another way to do it is to use a higher amount of missed cuts in Web to get demoted to CC. As you have probably figured out I am a bit torn between the keep it as is team and bring on the changes fort. I think there is a middle ground to be found. Also I think that any win on CC-Z - CC-B should be an automatic promotion.
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Post by Doyley on Jan 13, 2016 0:33:27 GMT -5
other PGA/Euro options could be
- get a strike if you finish 100th or worse
- clear strikes if you make cut
The strike system is supposed to be in place for those that are really struggling - if you are missing cuts but finishing 71st every week I don't want to demote that golfer. If you are missing cuts and finishing 114th, 135 etc - there is likely a web player to replace you that is of a higher skill. Those are the ones that need to be demoted on from the PGA/Euro. I think most PGA/Euro guys that hover in the 50-90 range every week won't have much trouble staying in a pro tour. Its the ones that finish 70-140 that would need to either step up the game or be prepared to drop down a level.
The Web.com Tour is stacked with talent - we're just looking to move to a model that gets them up to a level they are playing at.
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Post by nevadaballin on Jan 13, 2016 0:46:20 GMT -5
Send me to the High School team, i had my worst round ever this week lol. Working way too many hours lately and it is taking it's toll. The brain just doesn't want to function at times. Thank goodness I get back to a normal schedule near the end of February.
But I will fight to keep my PGA Card! Already looking forward to redeeming myself in the next event (cuz it can't get any worse than this week LoL)
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Post by rod81simo on Jan 13, 2016 3:10:05 GMT -5
I think the issue that I can see is that at present it takes a long time to go up the ranks/tiers, correct me if I'm wrong but the field sizes for the PGA/Euro seem to be down a bit and there is room to plug up the spaces with the wealth of top level players in the Web and pushing thru some of the CCs, could we therefore look at fast tracking some of the better known players that are slowly making their way up and add them to the PGA/Euro by way of a 10week fast track plan or something, whereas the winners and say top 3 of the Webs get promoted straight up and say the winners of some of the CC flights where the winner wins by like 3 shots or more jumps straight up to the top ranks. To me it seems that some/most of the issues are around players that are thought to be of a better talent than the tier they currently reside and therefore taking some higher finishes away from some of the other mainstay tier players. Furthermore I think that demotion is a tricky one to enforce, players go thru bad patches, I know I did for a good couple of months last year but I know I can compete with the tier I am in and would have hated to be relegated/demoted down because of this, it's the competition in my eyes that brings out the best, and what say I was demoted for missing a few cuts and then I figure out something in my game and I end up winning lets say the next Web event because I am really a tier up level player and instead of say a top 5,10,20 finish on my home tour and the points/money that I would have earned to go towards the end of year points race would have been for nothing because I'm in the tier below for a week.... Not sure of the solution but we need someway of being sure of whom is demoted and when, I think the way it is now where you ask to be demoted should still be there, maybe instead of missed cuts we can look at scoring average for the week and if you happen to be in the bottom 5-10% then those players a sent an email reminding them or showing the positives of maybe looking at a demotion..... Just a couple of ideas, more so me just rambling on though, haha  |
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Post by AFCTUJacko on Jan 13, 2016 4:17:40 GMT -5
I like it, but i'd make it harder to get demoted the higher you go up the food chain.
ie - six straight missed cuts to be moved down from Euro/PGA to Web.
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Post by Moe Slorkman on Jan 13, 2016 4:25:28 GMT -5
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Post by Driver8 on Jan 13, 2016 4:26:40 GMT -5
Not a fan simply because I think one of the key "values" of TGCT is that it follows in many ways the real world structure. Don't see the longer time periods as an issue but rather a strength. Keeps it from being just another gaming league. Not like we have full fields on the Euro tour as is. This is what I like about the Tour. Could we perhaps fill the pro tours and then see what the situation looks like? Also getting rid of inactive players |
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Post by mcbogga on Jan 13, 2016 4:28:12 GMT -5
other PGA/Euro options could be - get a strike if you finish 100th or worse - clear strikes if you make cut The strike system is supposed to be in place for those that are really struggling - if you are missing cuts but finishing 71st every week I don't want to demote that golfer. If you are missing cuts and finishing 114th, 135 etc - there is likely a web player to replace you that is of a higher skill. Those are the ones that need to be demoted on from the PGA/Euro. I think most PGA/Euro guys that hover in the 50-90 range every week won't have much trouble staying in a pro tour. Its the ones that finish 70-140 that would need to either step up the game or be prepared to drop down a level. The Web.com Tour is stacked with talent - we're just looking to move to a model that gets them up to a level they are playing at. Or - another system to reach the same effect while keeping it more realistic. Euro Tour is not really at capacity so fill that up by promoting webbers more aggressively. In fact - make sure that there are more players than spots for the pro tours. Every week if there are more registrations than slots only the top 144 (140) based on Euro Money, Fed ex etc. gets to play. New card holders should get a bunch of "sponsor" invites to have a chance to establish themselves. This would simulate the categories players have IRL and the bottom dwellers on the money lists would only get to play occasionally and in minor events. Maybe give each player a couple of "sponsors excemptions" that they could use to guarantee participation in an event they really want to play. Option lower ranked players have is to demote to the web. Convoluted and probably has a bunch of holes - but I'd like something like that. The real web.com is stacked with potential PGA tour winners that don't get the chance. That's just the way pro golf tours work... |
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Post by Moe Slorkman on Jan 13, 2016 6:12:42 GMT -5
IMO filling PGA & Euro is priority here!
If I may suggest potentially selecting a comp on Web were the top X get promoted to fill them up and do the same for the CC's to fill all the holes behind.
If players don't want to go up they don't play. The only negative here is it been a one off comp if someone has a bad week or is unable to play it is unfair on them.
Either that or extend the Web exemptions short term down to more places till filled to the required level.
Once PGA is filled then Exemptions only available for Euro till its full.
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Post by feng187 on Jan 13, 2016 6:23:17 GMT -5
As a current Web player the only problem I see with the system at the moment is the optional exemptions in Web as it has created a situation where the top players including multiple winners are more concerned about winning the Web money list at the end of the season than go and fight for a promotion. The result of this is leading to an imbalanced field as these players are obviously good enough to at least try to move up and feed the top tours with new players. They are also regularly taking up one of the five exemption spots on offer that others would jump at to have a chance to gain promotion. Forced exemptions with the exception of when the following weeks tournament is a minor event sorts this problem and when it gets too late in the season just remove all exemptions and offer promotion only through the money list or play offs.
As for the proposed changes to the PGA/Euro tours regarding demotions, I am not sure on this one as I am not on those tours so can't really comment too much but I do feel guys that have earned their way to the top deserve a bit of leeway to keep their card so maybe a higher number of straight missed cuts or finishes outside top 100 results in a demotion.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2016 7:55:13 GMT -5
I kind of skimmed all the replies, so pardon me if I repeat something.
1. We put in the promotion/demotion rules for ALL TOURS.
Not a fan, but I wouldn't be totally against it. As mcbogga said, we do a reasonable job of mimicing the actual tours here as far as many things, scores notwithstanding. To force a PGA or European player to move down would only lighten the participation in the top two tours even more? Maybe I am wrong, but I think if #1 goes in place, you HAVE to put #2 in place or else the Web.com tour will get too crowded and push deserving players down to CC-A. The balance created with these rules seems nice as it would allow for more players to move up per week while also having the eventual slow trickle down as well. The PGA gets somewhat close to the 144 cap, but the European Tour gets roughly 20 less players per week. Between the two, I would guess we are 40-50 under max fields on average. I do see where the thinking is on this. It would allow the talent level to be where it "should" be. Forcing top tiers down to Web if they miss enough cuts in a row and forcing Web to take their exemptions seems a reasonable balance. How it actually would play out I am not sure.
2. We enforced all exemptions to play on a higher tour the follow week. No optional exemptions across the board.
This would be a Web.com exclusive rule pretty much, right? CC tour exemptions are already "forced", and PGA/Euro players have nowhere higher to go. The issue I see is if the next week is a WGC event, a Major, or The Players with side "minor" events. Those do not currently allow for promotion, so it would be a "wasted" exemption. Perhaps the above should read: "We enforce all exemptions to play on a higher tour the next available week that promotions are given. No optional...." Also, it was put out there already, but I do have to stress the late in season problem with this rule going from Web.com to PGA or Web.com to European Tour. If you are forced to take an exemption with only 2-3 weeks left in the season, there is little time to earn FedEx points or European $$$. You would likely be dropped back to the Web.com Finals, and you would actually be hurt in that regard if you were in play for the Top 10 on the end of season Web.com $$$ list that automatically earn a card. So perhaps this rule is only in place until week XX of the season?! My initial thought is that with less than 8 weeks to the Web.com Finals and the CC equivalent, this rule is not enforced and exemptions are back to optional. The 8 number is arbitrary and may be too long or too short depending on the player.
3. We add in demotion strikes to PGA/EURO/WEB for missed cuts.
In order of participation, this would affect the most active tours more than less active ones. So that means right now it would affect Web.com the most, then PGA, and lastly European Tour. So if it is put into play, I do like that if you earn a strike on these tours, erasing them would be simply by making a cut (see below).
4. If you make cut on pro tours, it clears strikes.
Obviously I think that this rule should be in place if #3 is implemented.
Some summary thoughts that are arbitrary pros and cons, with some opinions as well:
-Pro : It would more easily put talent where it properly belongs and would more quickly even out someone being in the wrong tour vs their current skill level
-Con: It would disrupt rivalries more quickly as well. I love reading the Web boards this season. Those players have a good thing going.
-Pro: It would give "journeymen" players who pretty much know they won't win something to play for.
-Con: Someone could abuse the system, but I don't think many would tank just to win on a lower tour. Especially established players.
-Pro: The top tours would eventually have nothing but top talent.
-Con: If it works that way, it could cause long time members to leave if they are dropped to a tour they have been above the whole time TGCT has been around (This is mostly an opinion, but I think a small number of members could/would do this).
I may think of other things and add later.
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