Z3NZ
Caddy
twitch.tv/z3nz
Posts: 32
TGCT Name: Adam Lynch
Tour: PGA
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Post by Z3NZ on Feb 19, 2020 15:37:11 GMT -5
mrohde4 unclevirt materialization So, instead of continuing to write comments on my youtube video with anecdotal evidence like the following: "I actually did a little bit of testing on this late last night just to see how it translates to PS4, and it's very similar, even when I swing MILES right. Just right, out of the cone, to miles right, the difference is negligible." - fadgewacker And just so I'm not quoting him out of context: I thought it would be best to start a thread where we can debate this with actual proof and metrics to go off of. As I agree with you fadgewacker , that it is good to talk and discuss these things. To start, I'd like to completely disprove the quote above with some pictures from the range. I'd like to point out for this next one that this is the swing line I always try to produce every swing. I'm not perfect by any means, but I'm very consistent at reproducing it. So, where do we draw the line (pun intended) when we are talking about a push swing being an advantage? If this swing is inside the blue cone which you believe (and correct me if I'm wrong) is the "right way to play" or the "way the developers intended the game to be played", then what argument do you have that my swing line is an advantage? I apologize for the typo, it's supposed to be "I'm now 20+ yds" Now that we've proven the assumption that every push swing line has a negligible difference is entirely false, I'll leave it to you guys to what you would like to debate next. However, I'd like to advise that we only debate whether or not it is an advantage to play a push/pull swing line instead of this turning into a "what the developers intended" debate. I will always agree with you that the game should be more difficult than it's current state, but this is the game we have currently and there's no changing that. I'd be happy to start another thread with you guys for ideas on how we could improve the game for the next version, but let's just keep this one focused on the main topic. Cheers.
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Post by mrohde4 on Feb 19, 2020 17:44:09 GMT -5
Interesting topic here. A lot to unpack. Screenshots, quotes, allegations(?), and finally a proven falsehood. To me, this doesn't prove anything and actually does the opposite.
... We have still frames from three shots (1, 2, 3) all with a masters mode 8-iron. Swing #1 (blue edge of cone) is 12:15, Swing #2 is 1:30 and Swing #3 is... 2:45? Let's hopefully agree on that. To me, this sequence shows that the accuracy "penalty" for the 1:30 swing is disproportionate to the penalty for the 12:15 swing.
Swing #1 is on the right-most edge of the blue channel and comes to rest approx. 9 yards from the middle of the aiming circle. (You say 4 yards from the outer edge in your picture, but I believe it's more like 2-3). And with a left-to-right 4-5 mph wind, then we can conclude the accuracy penalty for a downswing on the right edge of the blue channel with an 8-iron is approx. 4-5 yards. If we accept this as true, then the possible accuracy dispersion for the entirety of the channel (outermost left point to outermost right point) is roughly 9-10 yards for an 8-iron. Stated differently, the penalty for '15 minutes' of miss (downswing line of 12:15) is 4-5 yards with an 8-iron.
Swing #2, with a downswing line at 1:30, we can all agree, is a terrible swing line. If I designed the game, swing #2 would travel a random distance between 100 and 150 yards and miss the target by at minimum by 25 yards. Yet that shot travels full distance and comes to rest approx. 20 yards from the CENTER OF THE TARGET and approx 8-10 yards from the resting point of swing #1. I disagree with your explanation of the typo. Swing #2 landed approx 10 yards right of swing #1. It appears the lines from the lawnmower are ten yards apart. Based on this, it appears the penalty for a 1:30 on the downswing is only 3X the penalty for missing at 12:15 (5-yard penalty in swing #1 vs. 15 yard penalty in swing #2). This is glaring when you realize the swing line of #2 is 6-7 times farther right from 12:00 than swing #1. To make the minutes comparison, swing #2's miss is '90 minutes' from center which should result in 30 yards of accuracy penalty when compared with swing #1's penalty of 5 yards at 12:15.
Swing #3, if we're being honest, isn't worth discussing. But it appears swinging 90 degrees to the right still produces a shot of 150+ yards, even though from the swing line the ball should only travel about 40-50 yards, if that at all.
I can't agree with your "proven" falsehood. The penalty for miles right #2 "1:30" swing is disproportionate to the penalty for #1's right edge of the channel "12:15". I'm kind of surprised you don't recognize it. All that said, yours or my explanation is hardly scientific. But we can both agree that several top players are using this "guided miss" strategy to gain accuracy consistency. Why is that? These players are just massively more consistent?
If anything, it begs the question what's the purpose of the channel? If missing the channel doesn't matter, then why is it there, and why does it shrink when lofting/de-lofting when out-of-channel strikes are consistent? What kills me most is that swings that miss the channel travel the same distance as 12:00 swings. It makes no sense. It's the equivalent of a club hitting the ball off the toe with an angled flight at 5-10 degrees, but they all travel the same distance.
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Post by hippystein on Feb 19, 2020 18:28:05 GMT -5
Now do it with a short swing. Your 3rd still that is 20yds + right of target will be a 10 yard push laser straight same and still 2 will be half again. Ill post video if you havent seen it irl. Full swing and short swings
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Post by fadgewacker on Feb 19, 2020 18:33:31 GMT -5
Now do it with a short swing. Your 3rd still that is 20yds + right of target will be a 10 yard push laser straight same and still 2 will be half again. Ill post video if you havent seen it irl. Full swing and short swings Lets do the short swing another day mate. I've just done it with the full swing... Allow me to retort.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2020 18:47:29 GMT -5
Interesting topic here. A lot to unpack. Screenshots, quotes, allegations(?), and finally a proven falsehood. To me, this doesn't prove anything and actually does the opposite. Swing #3, if we're being honest, isn't worth discussing. But it appears swinging 90 degrees to the right still produces a shot of 150+ yards, even though from the swing line the ball should only travel about 40-50 yards, if that at all. You are totaly missing how this is implemented in the game. The swing line determines if there is a push or a pull - or if the shot is hit straight. The game calculates the average points on the line to determine how far of a push or pull you get. The swing line is not a representation of how the club travels or how you hit the ball on the club face. You may say that you want to have it that way in the game; then you need to head over to the HB forum and argue with the developers.
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Post by fadgewacker on Feb 19, 2020 19:02:12 GMT -5
Oooookay. So, late last night (1am, after few drinks) I thought I'd play a society round with this new fangled push swing that's being discussed here. I found that Z3NZ edge of the circle aiming marker tip was a pretty good starting point, and I also found that, relating to the degree of accuracy required to play the game the way I play it, that there was negligible difference between swings that finished on the edge, just outside the cone, to what I would consider as miles outside of the cone. Our man Z3NZ has taken the push to another level with his screenshots and overlaid text above. Of course if you hit it 90deg right it'll be more destructive. That's not in question. What is, is how repeatable this push is, and how good your swing lines need to be to achieve that repeatably, especially when lofting the club, vs playing the game "traditionally". So I made some videos, on a track (of Hippys) with no wind. Please bear in mind that I was a push swing virgin less than 24 hours ago, have been to work all day and managed to see 2 kids and the wife off to bed - I have NOT been practicing Anyone that has played any amount of the game will be able to see that the push swing can be there or thereabouts, and produce great results. It can of course, only go in one direction, and the results, especially when lofted, are very, very repeatable. I was trying to hit the ball varying degrees of "right" through this, without going to retarded extremes. If you go out of your way to push one miles, it will deviate more, but I found it hard to make that happen when just slapping it out right pretty mindlessly. I was not trying to be repeatable here. I didn't feel the need to add text, or narrate these, but if any of it requires explanation, I will gladly supplement with some. I will also quote Adam, just so this isn't out of context: "I will always agree with you that the game should be more difficult than it's current state, but this is the game we have currently and there's no changing that"What you could do, to increase the challenge that the game offers, is to try playing it with a "traditional" swing. Believe me, it is more difficult to repeatably achieve the desired result, especially when you have the ability to hit it left, as well as right. Be ready to jog these on, as there's a lot of taking unplayable lies. Example 1 - Just pushing it Example 2 - Starts with a bit of "Traditional Lofted Shots" for comparison, and then a variety of pushes. Again, starts with Traditional lofted shots (note the variance with a minor discrepancy in line) and then comparison with lofted pushes
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Post by DrnkNdKnwThngs on Feb 19, 2020 19:10:49 GMT -5
~Drnk
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Post by GW_Hope on Feb 19, 2020 20:01:04 GMT -5
Bottom line HB should have had Rory in the title.
It’s a dumbed down swing compared to TGC2. There are shot selections in this game that would have anybody shaking in TGC2 but don’t even cause a quiver in 2019. Dumb
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Post by nevadaballin on Feb 19, 2020 20:59:17 GMT -5
Every controller is going to give different results, meaning every controller of like brand. I have four PS4 Dual Shock controllers (used to be five), none of them play the same as the others. Repeat: none of them are the same. All are Sony brand DS4's, none play like the others. I think the best and only advice needed here is >>>>> Find the swing that works for you on the controller you like to use. You won't be able to replicate someone else's swing and results if you aren't using their controller. Just like real golf, find your own swing and own it
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Post by fadgewacker on Feb 20, 2020 4:55:24 GMT -5
Every controller is going to give different results, meaning every controller of like brand. I have four PS4 Dual Shock controllers (used to be five), none of them play the same as the others. Repeat: none of them are the same. All are Sony brand DS4's, none play like the others. I think the best and only advice needed here is >>>>> Find the swing that works for you on the controller you like to use. You won't be able to replicate someone else's swing and results if you aren't using their controller. Just like real golf, find your own swing and own it Hi Jimmy, hope you and your significant other are seeing some light at the end of the tunnel. Agree, all controllers are different , but try lining your aiming circle up just past the right edge and hitting a push. Then see how little the difference in controller matters... the acceptability of input variance with swings on/outside the cone is not on ratio with those that are in the cone / attempting to be straight. Then try to hit 10 shots at the flag with a fully lofted straight swing 😂... and 10 shots at the flag (using the just past the edge of the circle method) with a fully lofted push 👌 Most people probably couldn’t give a damn about this... but there is an active debate on it ongoing.
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Post by fadgewacker on Feb 20, 2020 6:57:48 GMT -5
Ok - So last night I joined Z3NZ on his Twitch channel (very well presented by the way) so that we could have a little "live" chat on the topic that we're debating. I think that the time, as frustrating as it was for us both at points, was useful, as my "point" was understood and recognised - I agree with you Adam, we're unlikely to ever meet 100% in the middle on this. In the end, I wasn't really comfortable with how my contribution left the general feel in the stream, but hey, we're all big boys. I watched the end of the stream while brushing my teeth and having a shave this morning. I'd like to make a few points: - As another guy suggested on the stream last night, I'm not just some guy that's bad at the game (I'm not great, but I can hold my own in the top 50), that's calling push / pullers cheats. Not at all.
- I do not want everyone to swing the same way. This is not a puritan mission for the holy grail of legitimately hitting it straight - honestly. It couldn't be further from that. There should be creativity, but with equal penalty.
- This is not a personal thing - far from it, but is borne of frustration of a game that has elements to it that are very, very easy to use to your advantage. Some of those elements (the short swing) have been proven to the designers beyond any doubt, and they just switched off, after being interested to a point - the truth, to them, was not pretty. We are NOT here to discuss the short swing, and I am NOT putting push / pull swingers in the short swing bracket.
- Just so we're 100% clear on my view on this - I AM NOT calling anybody a cheat:
I (and others, I assume, based on stream comments last night) believe, through some limited play testing, that there are a number of advantages afforded to somebody that plays a push / pull shot, over and above the fact that it's all but guaranteeing a one way miss.
The dispersion penalty for variance in the push / pull swing looks to be less than with a traditional swing - Ok, it's an advantage to "play to a tendency" as you put it, I get that... But is it intended that while playing to that tendency, your accuracy is improved? Did the designer intend that, and if not, is it a fair advantage?
The ability to repeatably loft, as we agreed last night Z3NZ , is a thing with the push swing. The narrowing of the swing channel on lofted shots makes no, or negligible differences to the push swing, whereas the penalty for minimal deviation in the "traditional" swing is severe, and unpredictable... That CANNOT be how the game designer intended that feature to work - it is massively at odds with how the narrowing of the swing channel is meant to affect play...
Whether knowingly or unintentionally taking advantage of the reduced swing channel flaw is viewed as unfair, is open to interpretation, and is obviously something of a personal thing. This, I suppose, is our impasse, although we both agree that it is an advantage.
- This is totally different to playing a slow backswing to knock distance off your shot vs hitting a 90% swing - sorry man, but it just isn't in the same park. I get your reason for mentioning that as a comparison, but the designers intended a slow backswing to reduce distance. That's exactly what it does.
That's all I got for now. If anyone cares, check out Z3NZ Twitch feed from last night . I joined at 1 hr 18 ish... it went on a while from there. I'll be on Twitch tonight - - an I'll just play some golf, or Death Stranding, until anyone fancies doing a bit of further Q&A or testing.
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Post by Generic_Casual on Feb 20, 2020 11:11:25 GMT -5
#inb4
😊😊
Not even sure why this is a thing?
Not even sure why I read it.
10/10 not a fan.
Also, not quite the 'C-word' I had in mind.
😂😂
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Post by titan30003 on Feb 20, 2020 12:15:08 GMT -5
Good summary Fadge. I am somebody whose natural swing has become something of a constant pull, so I don't like the idea of this being thought of as an exploit. However, in my testing, I agree, it does seem like there is less punishment for a pull swing when deviating from the intended pull line. This is a flaw in the game. I view a repeatable but wonky game swing to be something like a real life swing that has a lot of moving parts but is repeatable. In real life, when something goes wrong with that swing, you're punished severely, since it's hard to compensate with all the moving parts. But when something goes wrong on a beautiful, well constructed swing, the punishment is not as bad, as you don't have a hundred things you need to do to compensate. The game should be like this, but it appears to be the opposite. (which I don't understand, as I thought once you're outside the cone, mistakes are magnified... I'm not sure HB actually understands the swing tbh).
However, in popping into the stream last night, Adam brought up something (maybe you responded, maybe not) that I agree with. If we're looking down upon this pseudo-exploit, why don't we look down upon things like slow flops? The partial shot flop is more realistic (and more difficult to pull off). You never see someone on tour take a flop shot back, hold for 2 seconds, then move forward. But this is used by most (I think) in the game. One difference in practice is that the push pull is used for most shots, while the flop only sporadically, but fundamentally it seems the same to me. (Edit: I see you addressed that in the post, missed it on a first reading... I see your point, that they designed it that way... it still feels dumb to me. I would say for the push pull swing, they made a mistake in allowing this to happen, a mistake in the code I guess that deviated from their philosophy. Whereas the slow flop was a theoretical mistake that HB made in my opinion. If your goal is to mimic real life, I still think the slow flop is similar to the push pull pseudo-exploit in that there is no basis for it in real golf)
Anyway, not sure what I'm going to do going forward. Luckily I'm bad enough that nobody is expecting videos from me anytime soon.
The good news for everyone who is a straight swing zealot is that when the new game comes out and HB has perfected the swing mechanic, us heretics with the push / pull swing will have no idea how to golf anymore.
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Post by unclevirt on Feb 20, 2020 12:18:48 GMT -5
The good news for everyone who is a straight swing zealot is that when the new game comes out and HB has perfected the swing mechanic, us heretics with the push / pull swing will have no idea how to golf anymore. You right. Lol. Although, I have doubt in them perfecting the swing mechanic=P
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Post by GW_Hope on Feb 20, 2020 12:21:09 GMT -5
I wish or hope that is true, both on a new game and that they admit there is a problem. I leaning towards neither happening.
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