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Post by SweetTeeBag on Feb 20, 2020 16:12:36 GMT -5
I mean the real goal is to swing as straight as you can to get accurate results. Not have these boomerang swing lines and shooting scores which should resemble +15 not -15 When did you lose the cat?? Jeez, I've been away from the PGA for too long. That'll teach me for trying to hit it straight. A couple weeks ago Jamie. My NASACR driver pretty much retired in 2013 so time for a change
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Post by GW_Hope on Feb 20, 2020 16:17:55 GMT -5
When did you lose the cat?? Jeez, I've been away from the PGA for too long. That'll teach me for trying to hit it straight. A couple weeks ago Jamie. My NASACR driver pretty much retired in 2013 so time for a change I thought Jeff Gordon retired too?
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Post by fadgewacker on Feb 20, 2020 16:23:51 GMT -5
Good summary Fadge. I am somebody whose natural swing has become something of a constant pull, so I don't like the idea of this being thought of as an exploit. However, in my testing, I agree, it does seem like there is less punishment for a pull swing when deviating from the intended pull line. This is a flaw in the game. I view a repeatable but wonky game swing to be something like a real life swing that has a lot of moving parts but is repeatable. In real life, when something goes wrong with that swing, you're punished severely, since it's hard to compensate with all the moving parts. But when something goes wrong on a beautiful, well constructed swing, the punishment is not as bad, as you don't have a hundred things you need to do to compensate. The game should be like this, but it appears to be the opposite. (which I don't understand, as I thought once you're outside the cone, mistakes are magnified... I'm not sure HB actually understands the swing tbh). However, in popping into the stream last night, Adam brought up something (maybe you responded, maybe not) that I agree with. If we're looking down upon this pseudo-exploit, why don't we look down upon things like slow flops? The partial shot flop is more realistic (and more difficult to pull off). You never see someone on tour take a flop shot back, hold for 2 seconds, then move forward. But this is used by most (I think) in the game. One difference in practice is that the push pull is used for most shots, while the flop only sporadically, but fundamentally it seems the same to me. (Edit: I see you addressed that in the post, missed it on a first reading... I see your point, that they designed it that way... it still feels dumb to me. I would say for the push pull swing, they made a mistake in allowing this to happen, a mistake in the code I guess that deviated from their philosophy. Whereas the slow flop was a theoretical mistake that HB made in my opinion. If your goal is to mimic real life, I still think the slow flop is similar to the push pull pseudo-exploit in that there is no basis for it in real golf) Anyway, not sure what I'm going to do going forward. Luckily I'm bad enough that nobody is expecting videos from me anytime soon. The good news for everyone who is a straight swing zealot is that when the new game comes out and HB has perfected the swing mechanic, us heretics with the push / pull swing will have no idea how to golf anymore. Agree on the slow flop which I don’t play - I prefer to try to % them for a number of reasons , and in honesty, I agree on slow backswings too, which I do play on full shots. Trying to 90% a backswing is risky. The mechanic is however working as intended from HB. The uptake on user base playing that mechanic is probably not intended. The easy fix, which we won’t get, as nothing gets fixed, is to make a slow backswing a random distance on full shots and a much more severe random distance % on flops.
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Post by fadgewacker on Feb 20, 2020 16:28:17 GMT -5
Death Stranding it is... not sure if I even really need to stream, but happy to do so if anyone’s interested.
I’ll be playing Death Stranding and will happily gold if anybody is arsed.
I think this thread has covered a lot today.
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Post by mrohde4 on Feb 20, 2020 16:32:27 GMT -5
Hey Mr. Z Z3NZ, If you wanted a debate I think you got one. Care to respond?
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Post by LKeet6 on Feb 20, 2020 16:35:43 GMT -5
If people play this game the way it was intended it's actually still a pretty damn good golf game. I still have a lot of fun with it! It's all you people trying to find loopholes and mechanical exploits that are ruining your own fun, and for what? Just to see your names a bit higher on a fake money leaderboard? You can keep your flick swings and deliberate misses, that sounds like no fun at all to me. Come and join us at Ultra sim experience! *Shameless plug!
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Post by xEB50x on Feb 20, 2020 17:11:09 GMT -5
The more stuff like this that comes out the harder it is to enjoy the tours. It's bad enough being on xbox, let alone knowing the majority of players are on better systems for this game, some flick, and now we'll have a whole new crop of push pull people because of this thread. It's a shame really.
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Post by SweetTeeBag on Feb 20, 2020 17:12:06 GMT -5
A couple weeks ago Jamie. My NASACR driver pretty much retired in 2013 so time for a change I thought Jeff Gordon retired too? He did. Was a huge Jeff Burton fan late 90’s into the 2000’s. When I setup my PlayStation user name in 2010 he drove the #31 Caterpillar car hence where the burton31cat name originated 😁
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2020 17:24:50 GMT -5
Good summary Fadge. I am somebody whose natural swing has become something of a constant pull, so I don't like the idea of this being thought of as an exploit. However, in my testing, I agree, it does seem like there is less punishment for a pull swing when deviating from the intended pull line. This is a flaw in the game. I view a repeatable but wonky game swing to be something like a real life swing that has a lot of moving parts but is repeatable. In real life, when something goes wrong with that swing, you're punished severely, since it's hard to compensate with all the moving parts. But when something goes wrong on a beautiful, well constructed swing, the punishment is not as bad, as you don't have a hundred things you need to do to compensate. The game should be like this, but it appears to be the opposite. (which I don't understand, as I thought once you're outside the cone, mistakes are magnified... I'm not sure HB actually understands the swing tbh). However, in popping into the stream last night, Adam brought up something (maybe you responded, maybe not) that I agree with. If we're looking down upon this pseudo-exploit, why don't we look down upon things like slow flops? The partial shot flop is more realistic (and more difficult to pull off). You never see someone on tour take a flop shot back, hold for 2 seconds, then move forward. But this is used by most (I think) in the game. One difference in practice is that the push pull is used for most shots, while the flop only sporadically, but fundamentally it seems the same to me. (Edit: I see you addressed that in the post, missed it on a first reading... I see your point, that they designed it that way... it still feels dumb to me. I would say for the push pull swing, they made a mistake in allowing this to happen, a mistake in the code I guess that deviated from their philosophy. Whereas the slow flop was a theoretical mistake that HB made in my opinion. If your goal is to mimic real life, I still think the slow flop is similar to the push pull pseudo-exploit in that there is no basis for it in real golf) Anyway, not sure what I'm going to do going forward. Luckily I'm bad enough that nobody is expecting videos from me anytime soon. The good news for everyone who is a straight swing zealot is that when the new game comes out and HB has perfected the swing mechanic, us heretics with the push / pull swing will have no idea how to golf anymore. Agree on the slow flop which I don’t play - I prefer to try to % them for a number of reasons , and in honesty, I agree on slow backswings too, which I do play on full shots. Trying to 90% a backswing is risky. The mechanic is however working as intended from HB. The uptake on user base playing that mechanic is probably not intended. The easy fix, which we won’t get, as nothing gets fixed, is to make a slow backswing a random distance on full shots and a much more severe random distance % on flops. Slow backswing is another awful design flaw in this game that in no way resembles the game of golf. But we'll just add that to the rest of the arcade crap in this game. There is actually a good sim in the game when we make our own rules.
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Post by fadgewacker on Feb 20, 2020 17:31:51 GMT -5
The more stuff like this that comes out the harder it is to enjoy the tours. It's bad enough being on xbox, let alone knowing the majority of players are on better systems for this game, some flick, and now we'll have a whole new crop of push pull people because of this thread. It's a shame really. Because if this thread? I assume you’re not serious?
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Post by materialization on Feb 20, 2020 21:36:15 GMT -5
Hello all, Interesting topic and after initially being completely dismissive of some of this I decided to do my own experiment and would like now to share my findings. I know some of you wouldn't need such great lengths or detail or may even think this is overkill, but if it contributes in some way or even just helps clarify to those who don't fully understand, then so be it. Firstly, I'll just point out that its impossible to get exact figures on the data I'm about to provide but I think you'll all agree it will be a fairly good estimation based from the picture diagrams and the subsequent values derived from them. To begin, a course was created completely flat and the course designer measuring tool used to place objects at the correct positions (nothing new to all the course designers out there). For the purpose of this experiment, I created lanes for the ball to land in and the identity of the lane labelled by the colour of the car. This will all become obvious in what follows below. Next step is to begin hitting shots off the tee and aiming in the exact same position each time in order to record exactly where this ball lands. This is easily done by performing a screenshot on the PC and using this to plot a graph. To get the best results, I am hitting the longest club in the game namely the master club driver with no loft modification. So lets just get straight to it. The first graph here shows 22 shots performed as straight as I possibly (humanly) can. The graph is basically a screenshot of part of the course and the ball shapes are where my ball lands (length is irrelevant so ignore it). These ball shapes are each given a number so that this landing position can be compared with the swing meter that was displayed after hitting that particular shot. 22 shots landed here for straight shots, Here are the swing meters pairing with each number, Nothing surprising to observe so far, as you can see the target is right in the middle of the hedge, the swings are good but we do still see a fair amount of variability in landing positions, namely the fairly even distribution between 3 lanes. Let me just point out the 3 meter gaps between the hedge and fences as labelled. From the chart we can deduce that shot 1 lands roughly 4 meters left of center whereas shot 21 lands roughly 5 meters right of center. These two outliers give 9 meters (10 yards) of distance in total between the two in terms of shot dispersion which is fairly big considering both shots are still clearly within the blue cone. So here comes the moment of truth, lets now compare the above using the same strategy only here we will be performing 22 shots that are 'pushed'. 22 shots landed here for pushed shots, and here are the swing meters pairing with each number, So what does all this even mean? If you begin dissecting the data and make comparisons we can see that the push shots occupy a more constrained area within two lanes (purple and green car lanes to be exact). Take for example the two outliers (shot 22 and shot 1), shot 22 lands roughly 13.5m right whereas shot 1 lands roughly 4.5m right which is still a dispersion difference of 9m (10 yards) but the swing meter variation it took to create this was a lot more pronounced. Shot 20, 21 and 22 were delibrate attempts to push further right and thus land in the red car lane. Conclusion? Shots 1 and 21 that were performed trying to be as straight as possible differ by 9 meters (10 yards) but the swing meter doesn't really vary a great deal. Shots 1 and 22 that were performed with the push shot differ by 9 meters (10 yards) but the swing meter varies considerably more. There are many more conclusions that can be made from this but I think the evidence speaks for itself and it pains me to say that if you can adapt to a push/pull shot by my guesstimate you'll be about 33% more accurate and probably more when lofting . Did the designers mean for this? I'm really not sure who really knows anymore. The most important thing about a golf game must surely be the swing mechanic yet we seem to have issues left and right (no pun intended). Imagine if there was an update that fixed tempo inconsistency and made the shot variation outside of the blue cone the same as that inside of it? Problem solved then we wouldn't be having this debate and I wouldn't of just spent the last 8 hours compiling this data, oh well. Thanks for your time.
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Post by OldSouled on Feb 20, 2020 22:06:08 GMT -5
It’s too bad this will create another angle for players to abuse. I’ll continue to try to hit the ball straight even if it is tougher.
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Post by materialization on Feb 20, 2020 22:21:43 GMT -5
People may intentionally do this because they knew this already however there are plenty out there who do this because they play a tendency and this is golf there is nothing wrong with it. As for where I stand on whether I think this is an exploit? no chance, but if this wasn't meant to be designed this way then the game just has poor mechanics that's all that can really be said.
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Post by OldSouled on Feb 20, 2020 22:25:11 GMT -5
People may intentionally do this because they knew this already however there are plenty out there who do this because they play a tendency and this is golf there is nothing wrong with it. As for where I stand on whether I think this is an exploit? no chance, but if this wasn't meant to be designed this way then the game just has poor mechanics that's all that can really be said. What was the rate of p/p you experienced on each method? Or did you literally hit p/p every swing?
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Post by fadgewacker on Feb 21, 2020 2:14:18 GMT -5
It’s too bad this will create another angle for players to abuse. I’ll continue to try to hit the ball straight even if it is tougher. Thanks for taking the time to put that together and put some data behind the already offered evidence and experiences. I’d be really interested to see this done with a fully lofted scoring club, say a 7i, as that is where the game is won or lost, especially on PGA with our postage stamp landing areas. I don’t like the word exploit. I don’t want to point fingers. I don’t and won’t say “I told you so!”, but the evidence presented so far of the driver with an unmolested swing line, coupled with the currently anecdotal evidence / experiences of myself, Doyley and others of the vastly improved performance when lofting shots, a cannot see this as anything but an unfair advantage. It’s is not intentionally adopted by most, but I know for absolute certain it has been adopted of late by one of the “worlds best” players. Why would he do that? Most people have just “always played that way”, which is exactly the same as the situation we found ourselves in when we proved that flicking / short swinging was a problem. Nobody believed that first either... for those that remember. HB still don’t believe us... 😂 This isn’t as easy to do as flicking and I view the issues separately, but can’t overlook the similarities, both are taking advantage of a flaw in the game to increase accuracy and scoring potential exponentially, while both methods also eliminate the 2 way miss. People that are excellent “traditional swingers” will still be excellent traditional swingers. People that are crappy traditional swingers can do this, or short swing, and reap more reward than being “traditionally” good at the main element of the game. That is not to say, by any means, that there are not excellent push/pullers exclusively. In closing - it is all on HB. All of it. This isn’t what people want to hear, but it’s the cold hard facts of the matter. Sorry.
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