Why are we playing easy courses?

[Deleted]

Maybe Im playing the wrong one? New Redwood it says.

[Deleted]

Jan 26, 2015 6:55:02 GMT -5 sirandrew214 said:

Maybe Im playing the wrong one? New Redwood it says.

rofl

duh!

try redwood elite, that is the course i was referring to.

[nzer]

No grid! Lol, that would fill up the Web tour fast. Not like you can walk up and down the green feeling the slope. The grid is crucial.

No wind display? You tripping son.

[Mitchblue]

Jan 26, 2015 6:50:25 GMT -5 sirandrew214 said:

Jan 26, 2015 6:46:11 GMT -5 Mitchblue said:

Wait a minute..you had to lay up with your 2nd shot on a par 5? Oh the humanity 

Yeah well, when that layup was a FORCED 90 yard shot, so you still have 240 yard to the hole.... thats just strange... If it had been a forced layup whereever before the green, I wouldnt mind.

Those are fun holes. You certainly have to think around that course and it's one tough hombre. We need some of that. I think Taste said it best, and I'm paraphrasing here as I don't remember the exact quote, "others wanted higher scores/tougher courses" so they were created and then the same said it was "too tough/long/hard." Catch 22.

[Deleted]

Jan 26, 2015 6:55:02 GMT -5 sirandrew214 said:

Maybe Im playing the wrong one? New Redwood it says.

haha.... So, just forget everything I wrote then, because I have obviously played the wrong course...  
I will be back... 

[Deleted]

So, back after playing Redwood Elite. Thats a golfcourse, and not to be confused with New Redwood!

Redwood Elite can obviously be played in a tournament, and I would be surprised if it is not!
I obviously made an error in what course I was talking about in the earlier answers, so please just disregard them!

[jwfickett]

Lots of good feedback to consider as we pick courses going forward. Thanks for the civil discussion.

A quick jaunt through how courses have been selected thus far and the process moving forward:

The first few courses for PGA and Euro have been deliberately not too tough, possibly with the exception of Jebel Ali Emirates (we'll get here in a second). The idea was to: 1) ease members and staff into the tournament process, 2) pick courses that would give us a good look at what the low end scores would be like for our WGR calculations (forthcoming), and 3) err on the side of caution so as to not alienate the members that are not going to be winning tournaments every week.

It is, in my opinion, better to go easy and transition into hard than the other way around. We could have easily busted out some brutal courses in the first month, but what message does that send? I think the clamoring for easier courses would have come much earlier and much more often than this thread asking for hard courses, so to me, that is a small victory in and of itself. I also understand that picking courses is a thankless job and that you can't please everyone every week, which is why we have cross-over options. It's not as straightforward as it may seem.

In brief, there are at least the following factors that go into every course selection: 1) Does it have a reasonable analogue to the real life course that week (or, is it fictionally set in the same area/country that the real course is set?) 2) Is the course fair? 3) How difficult is this course going to be for the average golfer on this specific tour? 4) Is the course interesting enough to be played for four rounds without boring the members? 5) How tough are the last few courses we've played and how tough are the next few that we are going to play (balance striking) 6) Have we used this designer before/can we find a way to use another designer if it's an equally applicable course? 7) How tough is the real life analogue course?

These are the myriad considerations that go into every selection, plus more factors that pop up occasionally, which are not listed here.

This is also the reason we only finalize courses 1 month out...because we want to be able to make adjustments on the fly and to have courses that have come out recently get the same fair shot as selection as some of the classics. We are trying to find a way to present courses for tournament play that are challenging at every level, which is somewhat difficult to do, as most courses will be torn up by the elite players regardless of difficulty, and the really difficult ones will make the mid and lower tier players on that tour so frustrated that they want to (or do) ragequit. That might not be bad once in a while, but do that three or four weeks in a row just to challenge the top tier and you have a bottom and middle tier that are going to be starting the threads that say "Why are we playing such tough courses?!" that is, if they don't quit entirely.

One last thing about Jebel...that course is probably pretty tough by most European Tour player's standards. The cut was the highest of any pro tournament so far...-6. The winning score? Still -44. We have to be mindful that putting out more difficult courses mostly just makes the gap higher between the contention group and the guys struggling to make the cut. And guess what...that thread was chock full of people complaining about how the course was too difficult, the rough too deep/close to the fairway, the pins too close to edges...well guess what, guys...that's how you make a course tough when it will be played with grids/scout cam/wind meter all turned on. Courses are indefensible, except for wind, if they have what would be considered a "realistic" design and pin placements. It's video game golf...it's easier than real life.

Turning off all the aids would make the scores somewhat more realistic, but really would just do more to alienate the guys at the bottom...same issue.

We have some tougher courses coming up on both PGA and Euro tours in February. Hang around and see what you think.

Finally...the major courses we have coming are going to be brutal. Hopefully, REALLY brutal. But we have to strike a balance between brutal and fun. So we'll see if people really want tougher after the Masters and US Open.

[onhobobobohno]

I don't think people realize that this is VIDEO GAME GOLF, it is supposed to be easier. I myself am not surprised that you are seeing -45 to -60 in these tournaments. If you play the game long enough, and learn how to take advantage of the subtle shortcuts the game has to offer, then yeah, you will start shooting higher than normal scores. Thats why golfing in RL is so much harder to play than a video game version, controlling the variables is so much harder in RL. I never understood why people come on these threads to complain about people shooting lights out in a video game. Put your time into playing constantly and your scores will go up. I also hate the, "this game is supposed to represent a true simulation of golf, blah blah blah," argument. No golf video game for PC or console will be a true simulation of a round of golf (I'll admit that this game comes close). If you want a true simulation, then go buy a simulator.

[steelereign]

I understand and agree with the desire to have more realism in the game. For this reason, I typically play only sports and racing games that would be considered "simulations." I found no enjoyment in beating an opponent in Madden 93-3 or hitting 12 homeruns in a baseball game. I would dial up the difficulty and/or adjust sliders to bring things more in line with real life.

In TGC it's possible to dial in more realistic results with harder courses and removal of some aids. However, as Fickett said, how do you do this for the tournaments and keep those in the lower end of the scoreboard happy? In my opinion, the survival of this site and tour is largely based on keeping those that struggle to make cuts engaged.

It's a delicate balance to challenge those at the top w/out alienating the weaker players. Good luck with that!  

[theclv24]

I skipped from page one to page four, so forgive if someone already made this point. This part of the real life PGA Tour, at least, sees lots of low scores. Just look at the winning scores so far.

Hyundai TOC - Actually a fairly tough course at Kapalua, but Patrick Reed wins at -21. I believe 2 players also shot 62 on Sunday.
Sony Open - A historically easy course, if I recall. Jimmy Walker wins at -23.
Humana - -22, another course with a history of low scores.
Phoenix Open - The winner here always goes low. It's a shootout.

2 weeks away is Torrey Pines, which is the first difficult course the pros will see. I don't recall the difficulty of Bailiwick Grand, so I can't comment on if TGC Tours will match or not.

[dlw1964]

The toughest but very fair course that I've played so far is Magnolia National & it's 4 pin position.

[wendy]

I would like to see the overhead like a golf gps, move pointer etc to find carry just like you would playing real golf... then no more scout cam, would be more realistic, but we know that won't happen

[justamush]

Jan 26, 2015 9:45:10 GMT -5 wendy said:

I would like to see the overhead like a golf gps, move pointer etc to find carry just like you would playing real golf... then no more scout cam, would be more realistic, but we know that won't happen

This would be ideal. 

[steelereign]

Jan 26, 2015 9:45:10 GMT -5 wendy said:

I would like to see the overhead like a golf gps, move pointer etc to find carry just like you would playing real golf... then no more scout cam, would be more realistic, but we know that won't happen

Would love this!

[djdavefl]

Speaking as a player who has struggled to make the cut. I knew after Q-school (#203) where I stood in relation to the other players. I probably will never shoot a 55 on any course at any time under any wind condition. And you know what, I am okay with that.

Realistic scores are nice, but I have kinda came to a conclusion.

Players will be about double under-par what their RL Tour counterpart would shot.

For example, the leader shoots a round of -14, would really be equal to a round of -7. Which is a pretty realistic spot for a 1st round leader to be. If the player shoots a round of say -16, that's like shooting a -8.

If I shoot a -8, it's like a -4 round. Again pretty realistic for a mid to lower tier tour player.

Actually, if we look at it with that perspective, the scoring actually comes close to real life.

If I would change anything, not even saying we should, maybe turn off the scout cams. That would make the players really pay attention during practice rounds, and make it tougher to pinpoint exactly where to land in a changing wind condition.

Keep up the great work guys!