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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2015 15:25:19 GMT -5
I am a very average player on this tour just check my scores. The people who run this tour wanted to set up up a tour that is realistic as much as possible to the real thing. Play an arcade tour if you want to flop/pitch shots from 60 to 80 feet on the green.That is not golf its exploitation because we all know in this game and its much easier to get closer from that range than putt the same shot, the good honest players putt so why not everyone. I have a total respect for the players who believe in that. People complain the scores are too low but are looking for the easy option on the green because it suits them.
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Post by classicphil on Jan 24, 2015 15:44:23 GMT -5
Honestly Taste, if I felt I had a better chance of making the putt for whatever reason with a wedge in real life than with a putter, I'd use a wedge (and there have been times in real life where I have done that). It would be legal and I wouldn't have any qualms about it. As I said before, I've played rounds of golf with my brother (who's a single digit handicap) who putted the whole round with his 3 Wood, as he was getting better results. I didn't throw a hissy fit and go off about how he was playing the game wrong etc - for him, it was easier to putt with a 3 Wood than with a putter. Fair enough, the rules allow it. In TGC, for some it is easier to lag putt than it is to chip. I'm personally getting a little tired of the throwaway assumption that somehow chipping is universally easier to every player than putting in TGC in any and all circumstances; its not. Some players are probably better at chipping (I am) than putting - why we should arbitrarily punish players who are better at chipping than putting is somewhat unfair and punitive. We're forcing players to play away from their strengths which favor those who are better at putting than chipping. Just because you find chipping easier than putting doesn't mean everyone else does (I know 1 or 2 players who never chip in this game because its so difficult for example). It's simply a false assumption to make, and its unfair to try and force everyone to play the game exactly the same as everyone else. Someone else said it previous but there is no "right" way to play golf, and that's the beauty of the game. These types of actions run contrary to that and serve to benefit those who's strengths these actions play to. Sidenote: if by chipping you mean flop shots Taste, I would give you that point (though flopping shots that are less than 30 yards is not a slam-dunk easy shot) - if that's what the complaints are about then ban flop shots on greens except if you don't have a line at the pin. not even sure if you read what i said, here you go around in that full circle, so i will just repost my last post. putting with a 3 wood, .....its putting the freaking ball, he is not leaving the putting surface to null the breaks now is he? read what I said, if you can't understand the point, then there is no help in having you understand the point we are trying to make. THIS IS NOT ABOUT EXTREME SITUATIONS, THIS RULE WAS NOT PUT IN PLACE FOR EXTREME SITUATIONS, FEET ARE NOT YARDS, THERE WERE PLAYERS CHIPPING THEIR PUTTS FROM 15-25 FEET, get it? got it? good. Granger, for the ones who get it done. Love the level of respect and decorum you bring to the discussion Taste. I did understand your point - and my response to that was in real life, I would and have chipped on the greens. Therefore when you accuse people like me of "ignoring parts of reality" but citing other parts of reality in support of my position, it doesn't wash because I'm not doing that. I can understand your point, thanks for the condescension though. Your point consists of a straw men you constructed then knocked down. And here is where I'll quote you back to you: "read what I said, if you can't understand the point, then there is no help in having you understand the point we are trying to make." You're constructing straw men arguments here, plain and simple. My failure to accept your straw men arguments does not mean I don't understand them - lets not confuse disagreement with a lack of intelligence. Furthermore, you continue to assert that chipping is easier than putting; its not. They are two different shot types that require two different strategies and ways of playing them. If you think its so easy, go play a round and chip instead of putt - let me know if you score higher (I dare say you wont). Chipping is easier for some, putting is easier for some - why is this such a difficult concept to accept and understand? And while the reasons for this rule change may have been to eliminate those who are chipping from inside 20 feet, the lack of compromise and draconian style of action taken affects ALL forms of chipping on the greens. So yes, we will talk about extreme situations because now we are no longer allowed to consider a different shot option in those circumstances due to the nature of this ruling. The rule affects extreme situations as well as non-extreme situations regardless of what you continue to assert. All it takes is one stickler to report it and its a DQ, even if that person was in an extreme situation where putting was a bad option. I brought up my brother to make a point. I daresay if some started using a 3 Wood on greens in TGC and started to get better results than putting, all the squeaky wheels would come out and start decrying such blatant "cheating" or use of an "exploit" and push to make it illegal. This is the ridiculousness that underscores this debate. Those who are really good at this game feel that everyone should play the same way they do, because the way they play is the "proper" way to play the game. This is simply BS. There is no "right" or "correct" or "proper" way to play golf - that's the beauty of the game. It is an individuals sport, and as such individuals play using shot types and strategies that they feel gives them the best result. This ban simply makes this game less diverse, less individualistic, less free and punishes those who have developed a different approach from the norm. It punishes some and rewards others on very arbitrary grounds. |
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Post by Brighttail on Jan 24, 2015 15:48:46 GMT -5
I'm sorry I type 50 instead of 60. Lol A fully lofted flop shot is 20 yards or 60 feet. If I was 60 feet or more out. The flop shot is easier to get closer than a putt. Yes I admitted to taking an advantage over the game. Hence my posts that I don't have a problem with the new rule. Plus I was trying to make a point, anybody that chips, pitches or flops on a green is taking advantage of the game mechanics. This is a good rule even though it goes against real golf rules. So what did you do, on the off chance that your ball hit the pin, spun backwards, down the slope and you found yourself 100 feet from the hole uphill 3 feet? Do you still think you should have to putt that monstrosity, knowing full well there may be a chance you might not get up it the first, second, third time? Do you mind that for the first 1/2 of your putt you can't even tell what direction the green is sloping and all you are doing is putting the putting at max, hitting and hoping cause when you are that far out that is all you are really doing. I go back to the whole point of this rule. Originally the mass amounts of complaints from the few that were complaining were about a select few players who were consistently chipping from short distance to avoid severe breaks. Some how, that narrow focus got blown up into the legality of the shot, the morality of the shot, the ethics of the shot and the etiquette of the shot. We went from trying to address these select players to banning a shot for all. I mean it escalated that quickly over a 24-48 hour time period. I ask what is the harm to you as a player personally if someone decides to chip from 80 feet out while on the green? What does it hurt you personally if they use a flop shot? It doesn't. Why? Because you can do the same thing, only you choose not to use that shot in your game due to some ethical dilemma. It is the same thing if you are 40-45 yards out. You like using an elevated pitch shot, another likes using a flop shot and another likes using a full stroke lofting a LW to the max, hell another might like to take a 1/2 swing with a full LW. 3 of those ways are not the way YOU like it, so do you want to ban the rest? Do we take a poll to see which shot is most realistic and ban the rest? There is NO difference of shooting with any club off the fairway, rough, sand, putting surface or tee. You can use a putter off the tee if you want and a driver on the green. Golf is a game of infinite possibilities with no right way. There are better ways but no right way. All that being said, this is a video game and it can have situations that can be abused. I agree with this. The original complaint was short chipping to avoid severe breaks. Fine ban that part, but it is not right, ethically, morally or in the spirit of fairness to take away chipping/flopping from long distances on the green just because some people here are under the deluded impression that it should be illegal. Golf has been around for over 100 years as has this rule. People with a lot more experience and intelligence have debated it and this is their conclusion. And yet here we are because there are people here who feel it is an ethical dilemma to use a pitch/chip/flop on the green, when they can make the exact same shot but CHOOSE not to, it is banned for the folks that want to use it. Lets be clear what this rule is when it comes to long distances from the pin. It isn't about fairness because every player has the ability to make the same shot they are wanting banned. It is about an ideal. It is about a personal belief. It is about someone doing something legal that some CHOOSE not to do. There is nothing fair about it. In fact it is unfair to those that can no longer do this without fear of being DQ'd. And before any of you say, "Well you should practice it..." Why the hell should I or anyone practice a shot that YOU prefer that I do not? Can I demand you practice a particular delofted shot I came across recently because I prefer it and you might not? The vast majority of players that will be chipping/flopping from 60 feet out are those that land 60 feet away, you know the duffers and the non-elite, and this rule has just taken a potentially par saving shot out of our bags and inserted a bogey or worse... but fear not.. we can practice!!! I'm glad you all sorts of extra time to build a course or two, and spend hours on end putting from long distances. We are a community and to those who are damn good at this game and will always be in the top 20, I say this to you. Doyley was nice enough to give us charts and tips to get better, why would you then support something that is going to make those same people he tried to help, get worse? |
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Post by classicphil on Jan 24, 2015 15:50:22 GMT -5
I'm sorry I type 50 instead of 60. Lol A fully lofted flop shot is 20 yards or 60 feet. If I was 60 feet or more out. The flop shot is easier to get closer than a putt. Yes I admitted to taking an advantage over the game. Hence my posts that I don't have a problem with the new rule. Plus I was trying to make a point, anybody that chips, pitches or flops on a green is taking advantage of the game mechanics. This is a good rule even though it goes against real golf rules. Actually, I've found that flopping it on the greens is not the greatest shot to make, due to slopes around the pin and the issue of back spin off the flop shot. Perhaps I just plain old suck at this game but I really don't understand those who keep asserting that chipping/flopping on the green is a piece of cake. In my experience it can be easier than putting in certain situations (which is why you would play it, just like you would in real life if you had a situation where a flop/chip was better than putting) but its by no means a walk in the park. Perhaps this is why some are able to shoot in the 50's all the time? Again, I would like to call on the admins and site officials to give us a little bit more information so we can evaluate the issue better. How many people are shooting top 20 or top 10 scores by taking advantage of this "exploit"? Are the "abusers" 1 or 2 people, 1 or 2% of tour players? We are really debating out of ignorance when we discuss this without further information from admins/tour officials. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2015 15:57:20 GMT -5
Time to lock down another thread.
The rule has been made. The 'Discussion' has run its course. This topic is becoming a black-eye for TGCT ... It should never been allowed to get this far.
The creators have done way to much work to create a community site and attempt to simulate a Tour type atmosphere, for players to have fun and compete at all levels. Not to have it tarnished over a Topic such as this. It appears that there are some on both sides of the issue that are determined that they are correct and if the others don't agree with them its all out war.
I cannot see any "Fair" solution resulting satisfactory results serving both sides of this topic. The fact remains, the Administrators has made their decision.
We all now have two choices. Play within the TGCT rules, or suffer the penalty of the infraction.
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Post by dlw1964 on Jan 24, 2015 16:01:18 GMT -5
For me the ruling has very little effect on me.
Like I said I'm rarely 60 ft out.
Using when it happens it's a Par 5 that I on in 2.
As long as there isn't a lot of slope around the pin the flop shot is a lot easier to get close or even in than a putt from 60ft or farther.
Now in real life there's no way I'm flopping over putting and I'm pretty good at hitting flop shots in real life.
Personally I understand both sides of this debate.
I was trying to use myself as an example of why I think this is a good rule.
If a top player is chipping, pitching or flopping on the greens he's most likely taking advantage over the game mechanics.
Just my 2 cents
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2015 16:04:51 GMT -5
I'm sorry I type 50 instead of 60. Lol A fully lofted flop shot is 20 yards or 60 feet. If I was 60 feet or more out. The flop shot is easier to get closer than a putt. Yes I admitted to taking an advantage over the game. Hence my posts that I don't have a problem with the new rule. Plus I was trying to make a point, anybody that chips, pitches or flops on a green is taking advantage of the game mechanics. This is a good rule even though it goes against real golf rules. Actually, I've found that flopping it on the greens is not the greatest shot to make, due to slopes around the pin and the issue of back spin off the flop shot. Perhaps I just plain old suck at this game but I really don't understand those who keep asserting that chipping/flopping on the green is a piece of cake. In my experience it can be easier than putting in certain situations (which is why you would play it, just like you would in real life if you had a situation where a flop/chip was better than putting) but its by no means a walk in the park. Perhaps this is why some are able to shoot in the 50's all the time? Again, I would like to call on the admins and site officials to give us a little bit more information so we can evaluate the issue better. How many people are shooting top 20 or top 10 scores by taking advantage of this "exploit"? Are the "abusers" 1 or 2 people, 1 or 2% of tour players? We are really debating out of ignorance when we discuss this without further information from admins/tour officials. putting on this game is all about pace and feel from 20 to 30 yards. Where as a pitch shot is about doing the math on your loft and hitting it 100 % . Thats why I think putting is the most realistic shot in the game. How many people hit 50% to 80% shots in this game from wedges. Putting is the only part of the game that is about hitting say 20 to 100% of your distance thats about feel and takes practice |
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Post by Brighttail on Jan 24, 2015 16:09:45 GMT -5
Time to lock down another thread. The rule has been made. The 'Discussion' has run its course. This topic is becoming a black-eye for TGCT ... It should never been allowed to get this far. The creators have done way to much work to create a community site and attempt to simulate a Tour type atmosphere, for players to have fun and compete at all levels. Not to have it tarnished over a Topic such as this. It appears that there are some on both sides of the issue that are determined that they are correct and if the others don't agree with them its all out war. I cannot see any "Fair" solution resulting satisfactory results serving both sides of this topic. The fact remains, the Administrators has made their decision. We all now have two choices. Play within the TGCT rules, or suffer the penalty of the infraction. How can you possibly say there is now "fair" solution that serves both sides of the subject? The subject was to keep people from chipping short distances when they wanted to avoid a break. Make that the RULE! WHen you get beyond 50,60,70,80 feet there is no way people can be that accurate, even with a flop shot where they will be holing the shot with any degree of consistency that these people were doing from 12-20 feet. THAT is the compromise. Make the rule to combat the "cheating" that was originally the issue. Those that don't want chipping get no chipping from within 50,60,70,80 feet. Those that like to have that shot in their bag get the opportunity to use that shot. To say you don't see a 'fair' solution when there are obvious compromises is like saying, "I don't see a solution that I like, thus all discussion should be terminated." Nothing fair about That. |
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Post by Brighttail on Jan 24, 2015 16:12:19 GMT -5
Actually, I've found that flopping it on the greens is not the greatest shot to make, due to slopes around the pin and the issue of back spin off the flop shot. Perhaps I just plain old suck at this game but I really don't understand those who keep asserting that chipping/flopping on the green is a piece of cake. In my experience it can be easier than putting in certain situations (which is why you would play it, just like you would in real life if you had a situation where a flop/chip was better than putting) but its by no means a walk in the park. Perhaps this is why some are able to shoot in the 50's all the time? Again, I would like to call on the admins and site officials to give us a little bit more information so we can evaluate the issue better. How many people are shooting top 20 or top 10 scores by taking advantage of this "exploit"? Are the "abusers" 1 or 2 people, 1 or 2% of tour players? We are really debating out of ignorance when we discuss this without further information from admins/tour officials. putting on this game is all about pace and feel from 20 to 30 yards. Where as a pitch shot is about doing the math on your loft and hitting it 100 % . Thats why I think putting is the most realistic shot in the game. How many people hit 50% to 80% shots in this game from wedges. Putting is the only part of the game that is about hitting say 20 to 100% of your distance thats about feel and takes practice Lets be honest, putting is about knowing the formula. If you know how many ticks right/left you need to go when the slope line crosses a grid within 2 seconds versus four.. you can use math to figure out exactly how many ticks you need to adjust. Adding slope or downhill is just an extra part of that equation. |
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Post by dlw1964 on Jan 24, 2015 16:19:50 GMT -5
All I know is in real golf if your 50,60,70 ft away from the pin. My friends & I would call this 3 putt territory.
In this game its a flop and a tap in for me. Lol
Again I understand the purest thinking but sorry I believe this is a good rule but hey if they decide to change it back or compromise, that's fine with me too.
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Post by Wildrover on Jan 24, 2015 16:31:03 GMT -5
I've said all I've wanted to say on this matter as I've already stated but additionally and I think I speak for most players when I say this, the staff at tgc tours have already done a lot of work to build up 4 fantastic tours for all of our enjoyment..they continue to work hard behind the scenes I'm sure to maintain tgctours as a whole which incidently is very well organised n excellently presented.. Whether u agree or disagree with tgc tours's new ruling n stance on chipping on greens the fact remains this is among the rules we've all to abide by and respect!!they are well within there rights to apply such rules to all 4 tours.. I for one (I'm sure the vast majority on tgc tours agree)greatly appreciate all there efforts and welcome the new rule changes in recent days.. Have a great weekend one n all  |
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Painmantle
Weekend Golfer
Posts: 89 
TGCT Name: Rhett Parsons
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Post by Painmantle on Jan 24, 2015 16:32:21 GMT -5
Time to lock down another thread. The rule has been made. The 'Discussion' has run its course. This topic is becoming a black-eye for TGCT ... It should never been allowed to get this far. The creators have done way to much work to create a community site and attempt to simulate a Tour type atmosphere, for players to have fun and compete at all levels. Not to have it tarnished over a Topic such as this. It appears that there are some on both sides of the issue that are determined that they are correct and if the others don't agree with them its all out war. I cannot see any "Fair" solution resulting satisfactory results serving both sides of this topic. The fact remains, the Administrators has made their decision. We all now have two choices. Play within the TGCT rules, or suffer the penalty of the infraction. ^^^^This. I'd hate to think that I'm still reading this thread in 2 weeks as it approaches the century mark for pages. It's a done deal, move on. |
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Post by dlw1964 on Jan 24, 2015 16:50:47 GMT -5
I have to agree, it's a done deal. Time would be better serve to practice lag putting than writing in this thread. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2015 17:03:10 GMT -5
not even sure if you read what i said, here you go around in that full circle, so i will just repost my last post. putting with a 3 wood, .....its putting the freaking ball, he is not leaving the putting surface to null the breaks now is he? read what I said, if you can't understand the point, then there is no help in having you understand the point we are trying to make. THIS IS NOT ABOUT EXTREME SITUATIONS, THIS RULE WAS NOT PUT IN PLACE FOR EXTREME SITUATIONS, FEET ARE NOT YARDS, THERE WERE PLAYERS CHIPPING THEIR PUTTS FROM 15-25 FEET, get it? got it? good. Granger, for the ones who get it done. Love the level of respect and decorum you bring to the discussion Taste. I did understand your point - and my response to that was in real life, I would and have chipped on the greens. Therefore when you accuse people like me of "ignoring parts of reality" but citing other parts of reality in support of my position, it doesn't wash because I'm not doing that. I can understand your point, thanks for the condescension though. Your point consists of a straw men you constructed then knocked down. And here is where I'll quote you back to you: "read what I said, if you can't understand the point, then there is no help in having you understand the point we are trying to make." You're constructing straw men arguments here, plain and simple. My failure to accept your straw men arguments does not mean I don't understand them - lets not confuse disagreement with a lack of intelligence. Furthermore, you continue to assert that chipping is easier than putting; its not. They are two different shot types that require two different strategies and ways of playing them. If you think its so easy, go play a round and chip instead of putt - let me know if you score higher (I dare say you wont). Chipping is easier for some, putting is easier for some - why is this such a difficult concept to accept and understand? And while the reasons for this rule change may have been to eliminate those who are chipping from inside 20 feet, the lack of compromise and draconian style of action taken affects ALL forms of chipping on the greens. So yes, we will talk about extreme situations because now we are no longer allowed to consider a different shot option in those circumstances due to the nature of this ruling. The rule affects extreme situations as well as non-extreme situations regardless of what you continue to assert. All it takes is one stickler to report it and its a DQ, even if that person was in an extreme situation where putting was a bad option. I brought up my brother to make a point. I daresay if some started using a 3 Wood on greens in TGC and started to get better results than putting, all the squeaky wheels would come out and start decrying such blatant "cheating" or use of an "exploit" and push to make it illegal. This is the ridiculousness that underscores this debate. Those who are really good at this game feel that everyone should play the same way they do, because the way they play is the "proper" way to play the game. This is simply BS. There is no "right" or "correct" or "proper" way to play golf - that's the beauty of the game. It is an individuals sport, and as such individuals play using shot types and strategies that they feel gives them the best result. This ban simply makes this game less diverse, less individualistic, less free and punishes those who have developed a different approach from the norm. It punishes some and rewards others on very arbitrary grounds. oh the irony |
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Post by Brighttail on Jan 24, 2015 17:16:19 GMT -5
I too will say I do appreciate the level of work put in from everyone involved in making these tours. The reason this is still a topic for me is because there was no debate or consultation prior to the rule being created. It is my hope that the admin will look at what is being said and work towards a fair compromise that both sides can get something out of instead of just instituting such a draconian and sweeping rule. I still say that no rule is necessary if players simply report abuses and the staff investigates those and issues penalties under a "spirit of the rules/game" rule. We all know what abuse is and it would be easy to determine it and provide a 1st, 2nd, 3rd warning.
Those who think chipping/flopping is so accurate. I'll lay down this challenge. I'll publish a 100 foot hole. You can chip/flop/pitch.. I'll even make it an even lie, all you have to do is contend with wind. I'll set it as low. I will put up $100 USD if you can make the shot 6 times out of 10, that is above average and what some here have said is possible. If you lose you pay me $5 USD, payable to a pay pal account of our choice. It is a ridiculous bet I know and I can't think of any pro that would take it. A sucker bet they call it, but I hope it illustrates my point. I could do the same with a 60foot putt where you can fully deloft a LW and add a normal sloped green with low wind and I still contend no one could make 6 of ten.
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