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Post by B.Smooth13 on Aug 8, 2019 14:50:41 GMT -5
I value fairness and cross-platform play, but am very against the forcing of pro clubs. A - That means that you value everyone choosing to play the way they want over fairness. I think it would be fair to say that I'm someone who experiences the multi-platform differences in performance with master clubs more than most, but couldn't disagree more with the idea that we need to make everyone use pro clubs B - You are quite literally saying that, in spite of being at a demonstrable disadvantage, you want to continue playing with Master Clubs against players on other platforms. That doesn't mean I value "playing my way" over the concepts of fairness and inclusion in the cross-platform setup that TGCT has always been. C - Yes, it quite literally does mean that you value "playing your way" and cross-platform play over fairness. You're willing to accept a disadvantage so that you can have club choice and cross-platform play. Last one from me on this, because I recognize that nothing I say is going to change any minds here, but just for clarity's sake:
A - Disagree, and think you're jumping to conclusions about the definition of "fairness" and assuming what you've determined "fair" to be is the same for everyone B - Sure, but it hasn't stopped me from doing decently well this year, and it's been fun, which is what I'd like to have here C - Just...disagree man, and I'll leave it at that.
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Post by ErixonStone on Aug 8, 2019 15:01:26 GMT -5
If your definition of fair is "completely equal across platform" then it has literally NEVER been fair. That's true, but you know that's a straw-man definition of fair. We've seen that metrics; it's not even close to that. The word unfair also implies that we don't all have the option of playing the easiest form of the game (for most, seemingly PS4) if we choose to do so. The vast majority do, or already have. Having to drop $350 to get a fair shake at a golf game is the antithesis of fair. That it's a possibility does not mean it qualifies as "fair." 2/3 of Masters club players (ie the disadvantaged players) don't want to give them up. End of Story? Then they value club choice. At the Pro Tour level, PS4 Master Clubs users are the privileged group since Pro Clubs are outlawed. Check the CC leaderboards and see the dominance of Pro Club users - especially in the first half of the season before the promotion marks were split evenly between Masters and Pros.
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Post by ErixonStone on Aug 8, 2019 15:13:48 GMT -5
OK, so by the "prefer to play their way" logic - if 70% of Pro Club users prefer that everyone MUST use Pro Clubs, but only around 30% of Master Club users think that should happen, couldn't we then say "Pro Club players prefer to play their way, and for everyone else to play their way, too?" You would say that 70% of Pro Club players do not value club choice as much as they value fairness and cross-platform play. I am in this camp, even though my preferred way to play this game is with Master Clubs. You could be in the camp of valuing fairness AND club choice over cross-platform play. You would then favor splitting the tours by Clubset/Platform. There's not a right/wrong answer to this which is why it's been a constant debate since the outset of TGC2. The problem is exacerbated in TGC2019. Maybe you think it's a temporary problem, so the fact that the scales are tipped a little bit is not a concern.
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Post by ezzinomilonga on Aug 8, 2019 16:29:37 GMT -5
grinder12000 (I bet you are crunching popcorn laughing, right now, isn't? )
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Post by jacobkessler on Aug 8, 2019 16:32:43 GMT -5
Personally I’m okay with master clubs being allowed to use, but the moment I can’t use pro clubs, this game is 100% unplayable and unenjoyable got me. Even pro clubs make me mad at times because my PC just isn’t that great and the tempo seems random at times.
That’s all I’ll say for now.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2019 17:07:15 GMT -5
I have a question. Who will be making any decision to make these changes? Is it Doyley or is there a committee?
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Post by cephyn on Aug 8, 2019 17:07:20 GMT -5
Pro clubs act the same across all platforms.
Master clubs do not.
The implementation of them is bugged. There's no way the intention was to have Pro clubs work the same and Master clubs not. People are dying on the hill of defending a bug in the game, and it will never make sense to me. HB gets a pass on this for some reason, when it's probably the worst bug in the game.
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Post by lastchancehombre on Aug 8, 2019 17:13:47 GMT -5
I've said it already, leave it alone until the next iteration comes about. If that turns out to be too damn long & by say the mid way point into the next season there are glaring needs for something to get changed then head on with some changes. But if anything is going to be "Forced" then split the CC Tours into Master & Pro Club levels. Those using Pro Clubs that want to try to make it to the Master Club Tour in CC can do so by way of a side or special event to qualify or something along those lines. Those that are tired of using Master Clubs can just request a bump to the Pro Club Tour.
Maybe not the ideal solution to appease the masses (which you will never do anyway) but forcing people that are playing the game the way they enjoy it as it's structured now just isn't the the answer imo. Take away the way some of us enjoy playing the game & simply put, I/We will lose interest in TGCT with the exception being for myself at least Sim style.
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LFCallum
Weekend Golfer
Posts: 122
TGCT Name: Callum Hutchinson
Tour: PGA
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Post by LFCallum on Aug 8, 2019 17:44:28 GMT -5
The more I think about it, the more I grow fond of the idea of forced pro clubs. I think if there is a new game announced then I'd say go for it. May as well see the feedback and also give everyone a good idea of where they stand going into the next game.
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Post by Celtic Wolf on Aug 8, 2019 18:16:42 GMT -5
I wouldn't want to force a lot of players into using a certain club set, whether it be Pro or Master. When I play the game it's for enjoyment first and to compete secondly, if I wanted to compete on a level playing field I'd join a society specific to my platform and club set.
I do believe if you want to play at the highest level you should use the hardest clubs. I proposed using Masters in the Pro Tours and at the top of CC, then have a flight or two below that with a mix of Masters and Pro clubs. Then below that the rest of the flights would be Pro clubs, I don't know if there would be any interest for players to promote from BCT to lower CC or if it should be left as is.
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Post by GW_Hope on Aug 8, 2019 18:18:35 GMT -5
I prefer playing Masters clubs, but I also want competition to be equal. So there is the quandary. Without taking XBOX into account the game on PS4 has competition killing bugs that can’t be controlled. This was found out a month into the season and word of it and techniques have spread. Every week multiple DQs by the same group that refuses to let go of the crutch. I can play Masters clubs in any society but I can’t compete here anymore. My thought is if top players get easy mode then give it to everybody. Now for clarification, I can swing straight and have good tempo but as soon as I get near half loft/deloft I am screwed where as the chosen ones can full loft at will. That is a big deal in the Pros. Whatever happens I support the decision and I would hope any new game fixes this and we go back to the hardest difficulty.
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Post by ezzinomilonga on Aug 8, 2019 18:23:54 GMT -5
I have a question. Who will be making any decision to make these changes? Is it Doyley or is there a committee? Dunno, but I suppose that every choice will be taken by our admins. After all, in the end someone must take the huge responsibility of a final decision and I think is obvious that they are the people deputed to do this. And less they are and better is. And all we know is that, whatever will be this decision, will be taken having in mind the best thing possible for the whole tour. As you can see, this is one of those situation in which you can ear anyone's bell (as they did), but you can never make anyone happy. They have the data of the survey..but you can see we are stucked in a discussion in which everyone has good points of view. There will be complaints. This is the only thing I know
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Post by hershalcrustofsk on Aug 8, 2019 19:00:20 GMT -5
Could there be a couple levels of CC masters on the tours where everyone uses masters clubs. And then the ccpro and cc am will have all the pro club players. I’m all for the level playing field thing but for those who enjoy the game more with the masters clubs but aren’t quite at the level of the professional tours it would suck to not be able to play the game the way they want to. I’m on the euro so I have nothing to gain or lose either way, but think this would be a good way to filter more talent up to the web as people’s games improve. Sorry if this has been said didn’t read all the posts.
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Post by TreeWood on Aug 8, 2019 19:19:00 GMT -5
Where exactly is this data that indicates that Master Clubs difficulty isn't balanced across platforms? Is this publicly available? I'm sorry if I missed it somewhere along the line, but would appreciate seeing it if someone can post a link...
Earlier today I did a quick eye-test in the CC flights - naturally, filtering for Masters clubs users only, and looking at the respective console results. Interestingly, I saw no appreciable or significant difference between PS4 scores and XB scores in CC-Z and CC-F. In CC-E and above, there did appear to be slightly lower scores on the PS4 side. I ignored PC scores simply because of the relatively small sample sizes.
Do the lower scores necessarily indicate easier playability? If so, why isn't that reflected clearly in all flights??
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Post by ezzinomilonga on Aug 8, 2019 20:53:59 GMT -5
Where exactly is this data that indicates that Master Clubs difficulty isn't balanced across platforms? Is this publicly available? I'm sorry if I missed it somewhere along the line, but would appreciate seeing it if someone can post a link... Earlier today I did a quick eye-test in the CC flights - naturally, filtering for Masters clubs users only, and looking at the respective console results. Interestingly, I saw no appreciable or significant difference between PS4 scores and XB scores in CC-Z and CC-F. In CC-E and above, there did appear to be slightly lower scores on the PS4 side. I ignored PC scores simply because of the relatively small sample sizes. Do the lower scores necessarily indicate easier playability? If so, why isn't that reflected clearly in all flights?? I can't remember or indicate the exact thread, maybe they were even more than one..but I just don't remember anymore, sorry. Probably some other guy will remember it. Maybe it was a thread started by crazycanuck..probably a pair of months ago..not sure, but you could search and check if I'm wrong. Anyway..in this thread some guy (again, I don't remember who exactly) posted a tot of data, about the results of the players across systems. Stunningly, all these numbers was indicating pretty clearly that actually the scores of Xbox players who used master clubs were really worst than results of ps4 players, with PC players in the middle of the pack, more or less. Conversely, these numbers indicated that this gap was actually almost nullified playing with pro clubs. I think that the debate has his roots in that post (before there was a lot of complaints from Xbox players..but the numbers obviously changed the perspective of all the problem). Furthermore, just to give you a complete information, in these last months, another reason why a good number of guys would accept the mandatory switch to pro clubs is that this move seems it could minimize the unfair advantage gained by the short flick players (the second..if not the first and last..huge issue we have), but honestly I have still not understand how or why this can happens. I just report what I know. And..well..that's all I think. Sorry if I can't be more precise..but the numbers that shows the gap between systems exists.
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