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Post by grinder12000 on Aug 8, 2019 7:04:07 GMT -5
Not sure how I like this and it will be controversial but seems a majority want it. A slim majority.
I think changing it will lead to some heated conversations.
I can’t wait. Oh this will be fun. Get your popcorn ready lol
Side note. Thank you for the survey. Appreciated
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Post by ezzinomilonga on Aug 8, 2019 7:19:11 GMT -5
I'm not so sure pro clubs will win. I noticed the strong (and honestly admirable) desire of a huge number of Xbox players who absolutely wants to keep going on with master clubs. And I think their voice should count the double, if not the triple, of mine (for example) as a PC player. If they can deal with those clubs, I can too. And I want.
I also think that a good number of people who voted for mandatory pro clubs, don't voted for a real preference, but as the "minor evil" between the best competition available and some fairness between systems. Me, for example, honestly I don't remember exactly what I voted finally, cause I leave a long comment (as usual) explaining exactly this. I wish to compete with master clubs on pro tour, BUT I also wish that fairness could be granted. Probably I voted for the switch, but the spirit behind my vote is only this. It stays a sad thing, to have the best tours played with not the hardest clubs. There is not an easy or harmless decision available.
I don't know what will be this decision..maybe who knows, we could have two separated tours by clubs..or everything will stay more or less the same. But this survey stays a great democratic move.
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Post by ezzinomilonga on Aug 8, 2019 7:34:58 GMT -5
I hope that such a sweeping change is not made based on such a slim margin. And, TBH, I doubt that it will. Forcing Pro clubs on everyone would have a tremendous leveling effect on the talent pool represented here. Before such a change is made, someone should make a poll asking how many current Masters club users would continue to play in TGC events if Pro clubs were required. I'd bet that the wide majority of those in the top 500 of the WGR would say "no". Hell, I'm 775th and I wouldn't play here any more if I had to play Pro clubs. I'm not that good and have a long way to go but I have developed SOME skills in the last year. Those skills would no longer be required if Pro clubs were mandated. They are just that much easier than Masters clubs. It would lose some of the challenge, for me, even if it meant that I might be a bit more competitive than I am now. Absolutely true. The clubs you use affects and maximize (or minimize) lie's effect, every not straight line..there's no doubt that it would be a different challenge. On a second thought, if this switch to pro clubs should be decided as an indispensable move to make, I wish at least that should be implemented even some modify in the setup, to offer at least some different challenge..as to shut off the scout cam or/and the lie grid, at least for PGA and Euro tour. (honestly I wish to see this change in every case, but I'm still a cc player, is not a decision in which my voice can count, but I really would like to play the pro tour with master clubs and these changes. I really would like to see a poll organized by the pro tour players. I don't think it would affects too much the scores, but it would be a fresh touch of realism, also good to select even better the really best players..and possibly minimizing a bit the advantage of the short flick players, giving some extra-prize for some more skilled player).
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2019 7:46:39 GMT -5
I sincerely hope this isn’t the way of the future for TGC Tours.
I am an Xbox master club player and I specifically wish they would keep it the way it is.
The beauty of the way they have it set up right now is that there is a home for everyone. If you wish to play beginner clubs, there is a home for you. If you want to play pro clubs, there is a home for you. If you want to play master clubs, there is a home for you. The field may not be equal when playing against other clubs sets but that’s kind of the point of having difficulty levels.
If we go to pro clubs only you’ve essentially just eliminated a home for anyone who wants to play with the hardest club set here. It’s a choice and if you want to play on a hard club so why would you not allow someone to do so? I understood the argument at the beginning of the season to not allow beginner clubs because it’s easier than the other club sets, but when going the other way and someone wants to play with harder clubs why would you shun those people?
I don’t know maybe I live in some sort of fantasy land but I just think that if people choose to play on the hardest clubs and are willing to accept the fact that they have a harder time than anyone else, it should be their right to do so.
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Post by grinder12000 on Aug 8, 2019 7:59:21 GMT -5
Where is the home for pro club users? I can’t play pro clubs anymore Just boring
i cant see any changes coming it would start a firestorm
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2019 8:11:16 GMT -5
Pro clubs can play on any of the CC tours.
You may not like it but at least there IS a place you can play. Mandating Pro Clubs would leave no place for Master Clubs, not just putting them in a less than desirable place. Big difference in not having a choice vs having a choice you just don’t like.
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Post by grinder12000 on Aug 8, 2019 8:18:50 GMT -5
Oh I thought there was a pro club only place you were talking about. I would like to play where PRO were not allowed
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Post by TreeWood on Aug 8, 2019 13:02:59 GMT -5
I play Masters clubs in CC, but couldn't care one way or the other which clubs anyone else uses. I don't get the impulse driving the "forced" club usage camp, and such a move would seem incongruous with the way TGCT has operated so far -- with club sets more or less optional, and tours like the TST, where you can play without grids, if that floats your boat.
As to club sets, yes, the Masters give a moderate distance advantage off the tee, and (at least from what I've read) improved green-holding on approaches, but at the cost of significantly greater penalty for non-p/p swings, and tougher chipping and putting. Seems like a balanced trade-off to me.
If the argument is for "standardization", then where does that end?? A tour for each platform and club set? So there'd be the PS4 Masters tour, the XB Pros tour, etc.? Why not go all in and have the PS4/Pro/Driver/3W/5W/3-9i/all wedges/ tour??? I agree with the post earlier about giving everyone a home.
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Post by cephyn on Aug 8, 2019 13:10:22 GMT -5
If the mission statement of TGCTours is to allow fair, cross-platform play in a career mode style setup - the ONLY viable solution for TGC2019 is to force pro clubs. Master clubs are not balanced across platform. That's it. End of story.
If that's not the mission statement - we are then inviting the fragmentation that Rob outlines above.
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Post by ErixonStone on Aug 8, 2019 13:38:54 GMT -5
It boils down to whether you value fairness, cross-platform play, and playing your preferred way. You get to pick two.
If you value fairness and cross-platform play, then you want to be in the Pro-Clubs only camp.
If you value cross-platform play and playing your preferred way, then you're for the current model.
If you value fairness and playing the clubs you want, then you want to be in the multiple-tours (Master/Pro/Beginner) camp.
I don't think any of these approaches is wrong, per se, but I value fairness and cross-platform play more than playing with a specific clubset. I am basing that on enjoying the Tours back in TGC1, even though there was only one choice and it was really easy. I don't think TGC1 had better gameplay, and ideally, the club sets would be balanced. I'm just saying that, in spite of the inferior gameplay, I still had a good time.
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Post by B.Smooth13 on Aug 8, 2019 13:48:15 GMT -5
It boils down to whether you value fairness, cross-platform play, and playing your preferred way. You get to pick two. If you value fairness and cross-platform play, then you want to be in the Pro-Clubs only camp. If you value cross-platform play and playing your preferred way, then you're for the current model. If you value fairness and playing the clubs you want, then you want to be in the multiple-tours (Master/Pro/Beginner) camp. I don't think any of these approaches is wrong, per se, but I value fairness and cross-platform play more than playing with a specific clubset. I am basing that on enjoying the Tours back in TGC1, even though there was only one choice and it was really easy. I don't think TGC1 had better gameplay, and ideally, the club sets would be balanced. I'm just saying that, in spite of the inferior gameplay, I still had a good time. I value fairness and cross-platform play, but am very against the forcing of pro clubs. I think it would be fair to say that I'm someone who experiences the multi-platform differences in performance with master clubs more than most, but couldn't disagree more with the idea that we need to make everyone use pro clubs - that doesn't mean I value "playing my way" over the concepts of fairness and inclusion in the cross-platform setup that TGCT has always been.
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Post by AFCTUJacko on Aug 8, 2019 13:51:48 GMT -5
If the mission statement of TGCTours is to allow fair, cross-platform play in a career mode style setup - the ONLY viable solution for TGC2019 is to force pro clubs. Master clubs are not balanced across platform. That's it. End of story. If that's not the mission statement - we are then inviting the fragmentation that Rob outlines above. If your definition of fair is "completely equal across platform" then it has literally NEVER been fair.
The word unfair also implies that we don't all have the option of playing the easiest form of the game (for most, seemingly PS4) if we choose to do so. The vast majority do, or already have.
2/3 of Masters club players (ie the disadvantaged players) don't want to give them up. End of Story?
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Post by cephyn on Aug 8, 2019 14:00:42 GMT -5
Why has it never been fair? It's my understanding that the data shows that pro clubs right now are fair across platforms. Master clubs are not.
2/3 of Master clubs players prefer to play their way, as Pat laid out, rather than have a level playing field across the platform. That's fine - that's their opinion. But they're advocating for a purposely skewed playing field.
And yes Justin - you'd rather play master clubs than have level cross-platform playing field - because that's literally the choice we have before us.
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Post by ErixonStone on Aug 8, 2019 14:43:47 GMT -5
I value fairness and cross-platform play, but am very against the forcing of pro clubs. That means that you value everyone choosing to play the way they want over fairness. I think it would be fair to say that I'm someone who experiences the multi-platform differences in performance with master clubs more than most, but couldn't disagree more with the idea that we need to make everyone use pro clubs You are quite literally saying that, in spite of being at a demonstrable disadvantage, you want to continue playing with Master Clubs against players on other platforms. That doesn't mean I value "playing my way" over the concepts of fairness and inclusion in the cross-platform setup that TGCT has always been. Yes, it quite literally does mean that you value "playing your way" and cross-platform play over fairness. You're willing to accept a disadvantage so that you can have club choice and cross-platform play.
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Post by B.Smooth13 on Aug 8, 2019 14:47:31 GMT -5
OK, so by the "prefer to play their way" logic - if 70% of Pro Club users prefer that everyone MUST use Pro Clubs, but only around 30% of Master Club users think that should happen, couldn't we then say "Pro Club players prefer to play their way, and for everyone else to play their way, too?"
Just open it up to all clubsets to all tours if that makes people happy, wouldn't bother me in the least. Want to come onto PGA and compete with Pro clubs? Sweet, you'll likely beat me because that's an easier difficulty setting, but I'd still like to enjoy the game the way I find it best, that's all. If that means I end up sliding back down a few tour ranks because I'm not competing with Pro club users, I won't lose sleep over it...it's a game, I'd just like the option to play it at it's most challenging - and for me, engaging and realistic (in a few ways, but not all) - setting.
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