TGCT - Season 3 - Firm green policy (updated)

[jarednich]

I really don't believe that limiting max firm setups will by itself make the season easier.

If we play all medium with ridiculously sloped greens then i fear that the results, and the burnout, will be the same.

Designers want to protect their courses from the dreaded -60. It's human nature.

It will up to the course selection folks to ensure that we aren't playing ridiculous setups. Unfortunately that's a subjective process and you can't make everyone happy.

I like the fact that there is recognition of an issue with course setups, I just hope the proposed fix doesn't make things worse.

Then again, I'm also the 5% who prefers max firm so I guess I'm biased.

[ErixonStone]

The biggest challenge in all of TGC is to design a course that provides any semblance of a challenge to players at the top level and still make it fun to play. There's only so much you can do, and when you try it, people complain that they can't stop their approaches within 10 feet.

Alternative to firm greens, you can try to challenge players with small landing areas and lots of slope, but players complain about that too. Yes, if you want to make a birdie you need to stick it to 2 feet. This is video game golf where you (almost) always hit it straight and can dial-a-distance with ease. If you end up more than 5 feet out, it's not a great shot. If you're more than 10 feet away, then it's a poor shot. It's OK to give a tough putt for an OK shot, and a nearly impossible putt to punish a poor shot. Except that people will complain.

And if you stay away from firm greens and small landing areas, you can try to challenge players with overall approach length, but players complain about that too. If you design a hole for Driver + 3I, there's a chance that players can't reach the green in strong winds. And we can't have that.

You can try elevation as a tactic too, but elevation changes more than 30 feet are unrealistic. You know, much more unrealistic than players consistently torching courses for scores in the 50s.

Finally, if you stay away from firm greens with lots of slope, and stay away from long par 4s and drastic elevation changes, you end up with a benign course that has no defense, and players light it up for scores in the mid 50s. Players complain about that too. Par feels like bogey, they say. You know what? That 275-yard driveable par 4 where par is a bogey... well, it just became a par 3. But players will complain, and bring up USGA guidelines written 70 years ago and tell you that your par 3 is illegal.

So designers can't win. Schedulers can't win. And players not named Sweeney can't win.

Yet, we're all still here. Why?

Because, despite the minor grumbling, this is the best damn online sports game community, and the courses and tournaments are exceptional the way they are. Schedulers already do a very good job of bringing a variety of challenges to each tour. Hopefully, not much will change and the schedulers will be given the full autonomy to set their schedules. Hopefully, the courses selected will provide a varied challenge from week-to-week, and even round-to-round.

[Deleted]

I had a rely long reply and then my browser blew up. So I'll make this short.

I do better on harder courses than easier courses relative to the field.

On easy course, I shot 16 under and missed cut.

On hard course, I got my Web card.

I will make fewer cuts in season 3, percentage wise, than in season 2 because of this. I thrive on hard courses and do poorly on easier ones, again, relative to the field. I can't explain why. It just is what it is.

So I will have a worse experience in season 3.

Golfers who will also have a worse experience.

1) Those who need the extra challenge and are bored with the easier courses.
2) Those who also play better, relative to the field, on harder courses.
3) Those who suddenly see that it is harder to place because more golfers are bunched together in the standings.

So the question becomes, does TGCT lose those golfers in order to retain the ones who simply hate firm greens? If the gain/loss is positive gain then the right decision was made.

Am I so sure that I'd bet my bank account on it?

Not even close.

[mde8965]

Coming from a CC player. If I have a choice of
1) Max/firm or firm with big greens without ski slopes
2) Medium/medium greens but tiny with ski slopes

I would choose max/firm all day long and twice on Sunday.

I agree with sentiments of many others here that say firm/firm greens are fine for me as long as they are larger greens that you can get close on approach with a little finesse. In other words if the course plays right for firm/firm, I have a lot of fun with these.

Our CC course this week (Tye Dunes 2) is set up on medium greens I think, but in 3 of the rounds there are quite a few holes on severe slops and a couple in yellow slopes or near reds. This to me stinks.

I would have said this when I was in CC-C and am saying it in CC-A....

[staypuft39]

I'm personally looking forward to the Wagtunes vs Sweeney matchup on a soft course, as Wags says he COULD beat him.
Let's make this happen.

[AFCTUJacko]

I think what has happened over the last year is pretty simple - we have all got so much better at the game that designers HAVE to use every trick in the book to stop their courses being destroyed (which is totally understandable) but because of the limitations of the game/designer they've now run out of tricks - so we end up seeing the same ones repeated ad nauseam

Personally, I just want a bit more variety

So let's say - 4 tournaments a month

1 firm/fast
1 Medium/Soft with slopey greens
1 Massacre
1 Mixed conditions

and crucially, make the PGA/Euro courses each week different so those that prefer one type of setup can cross over if they wish

[Deleted]

Sept 13, 2016 10:57:51 GMT -5 staypuft39 said:

I'm personally looking forward to the Wagtunes vs Sweeney matchup on a soft course, as Wags says he COULD beat him.
Let's make this happen.

Matt, in all seriousness. Take a course with all flat greens. Have us play each other. How many shots do you think he'll beat me by if at all? I actually played a course like this a long time ago before I even started the tour and I was really bad back then. I shot a 54. It was the most boring experience of my life. So unless Ian made some ace's, eagles or double eagles, he's not beating me.

Now granted, this isn't as extreme. But relatively speaking, you take away that firmness advantage and bless me with 4 rounds where the winds don't top 10 mph and I will absolutely give him a run for his money whereas on a max firm tough as nails course, he buries me. I mean it's not even close.

So what we end up with is a leader board that looks like this out of your top 70 golfers.

15 tied at 16 under
23 tied at 15 under
18 tied at 14 under
14 tied at 13 under

You're going to have a 3 to 5 shot difference max between first and 70th place. And those shots will be decided by ace's, eagles and double eagles. Anybody who is unlucky enough to either have a less than 100% shot or anomaly ball squirt is going to lose outright. There will be no recovering.  Again, I'm talking about the top golfers. Not the CC folks. Most of those have enough problems with the courses they have now. In fact, this new rule doesn't even concern them. The higher up the totem pole you go, the more the effect. Just watch what happens to the PGA/Euro scores and the differences between 1st and 70th place with Web and CC level courses to play 75% of the time. Web won't be quite as bad because we do have more easy weeks than the PGA guys do. But we will be affected. No question on that. I won't make nearly the percentage of cuts that I made in season 2 which, not counting the charity open that I wasn't even here for but gave me a DQ for, I made 8 cuts and missed 5.  That's 61%. Season 3 I will be pretty much around 30 to 40% if that. I need that extra difficulty in order to compete with the golfers at my skill level. I don't know why. It's just the way it is.

Honestly, not looking forward to season 3 at all.

[Timbr0_T]

Sept 13, 2016 10:28:30 GMT -5 @wagtunes said:

I had a rely long reply and then my browser blew up. So I'll make this short.

I do better on harder courses than easier courses relative to the field.

On easy course, I shot 16 under and missed cut.

On hard course, I got my Web card.

I will make fewer cuts in season 3, percentage wise, than in season 2 because of this. I thrive on hard courses and do poorly on easier ones, again, relative to the field. I can't explain why. It just is what it is.

So I will have a worse experience in season 3.

Golfers who will also have a worse experience.

1) Those who need the extra challenge and are bored with the easier courses.
2) Those who also play better, relative to the field, on harder courses.
3) Those who suddenly see that it is harder to place because more golfers are bunched together in the standings.

So the question becomes, does TGCT lose those golfers in order to retain the ones who simply hate firm greens? If the gain/loss is positive gain then the right decision was made.

Am I so sure that I'd bet my bank account on it?

Not even close.

Wag, earlier you said that you struggle most on firm conditions and now you are saying that you thrive on hard courses? Which is it, or do you simply exist to be contrarian?

TGCTs membership is not going to live and die by this decision. People come and go because they have lives, other commitments, other interests, not because the admins have conspired to make course conditions unsuitable to their liking. Ultimately, this is a video game, a very fun game with a great community but it does not pay very well and can eat up a ton of time  Burnout is burnout, it does not have to have a cause and it is easy to attribute the cause to something when in reality maybe the game just isn't as fun after 1,500x rounds.
 
One of the most common complaints has always been that under firm settings, many greens cannot be held regardless of the shot being hit, especially on downwind holes. This is unrealistic and turns TGCT into a chipping challenge. It also gives players who play late and rely on ghosts a significant advantage (way more so than under soft or medium conditions). 

TGC Admins are not the USGA. It is in the best interest of the tournament directors to schedule courses and conditions that the members will enjoy. They have done a pretty damn solid job IMO sorting through feedback and amending rules/policies on the fly.

Regarding your three points:
1) These people are important, no doubt, but few and far between. Show me one person who loves the challenge of breaking par and I will show you ten who enjoy trying to break 60. They will still get their 1 or 2 courses per month on firm settings. Furthermore, we've seen some great tournaments this year on Medium courses (which played pretty tough!) - Riverside as a recent example.
2) Small sample size and IMO unlikely to be true in the long term. Looking at the results from some of the tougher tournaments (Ratel, Harbour Pointe, Legacy), I see the same faces at the top.
3) This is counter-intuitive to me. If the standings are bunched, competition increases? While I don't expect to win anytime soon, I will be more motivated if I am 3 shots away from a top 10 compared to 13. I don't see this changing much anyways - there is no data that proves it to be the case.

Overall, my only real concern is the recent ski slope greens. You can build dramatic slopes and levels into a green and penalise people for hitting shots slightly off target, but 3 foot putts shouldn't have to be aimed 5 feet to the right. I played the Ryder Cup E course last night, and while it is a grind and a pain in the ass, I would rather play a course like this one that punishes miss-hit approach shots versus one like Bay Hill or East Lake where the pins are on the most slopey part of the green, and the course has zero other defence.

Anyways, good discussion and looking forward to Season 3.

[yaters]

I like that the powers that be are listening to the concerns and trying to adjust. That's a good sign for the future.

I've played this game slightly over a year now and know what I like and don't like. There is a lot of burden on designers to produce courses that are well received and this at least gives tighter guidelines.

I think it's a good move in general and I hope the designers can be creative enough to make fair and challenging courses. If it's firm, give us a reason to keep the ball on the green (instead of the best option being a chip/flop). If it's medium, make it us think about the approach without all options being a putt that breaks more than it travels.

[staypuft39]

Wags logic:
From "I can't compete in web on easier courses"
to
"I can beat Sweeney on an easy course"
...in 5 minutes.

[Timbr0_T]

Let's cancel the Ryder Cup and have a Wags vs. Sweeney 18 hole match on Little Brook instead.

[Deleted]

Sept 13, 2016 11:16:25 GMT -5 Timbr0_T said:

Sept 13, 2016 10:28:30 GMT -5 @wagtunes said:

I had a rely long reply and then my browser blew up. So I'll make this short.

I do better on harder courses than easier courses relative to the field.

On easy course, I shot 16 under and missed cut.

On hard course, I got my Web card.

I will make fewer cuts in season 3, percentage wise, than in season 2 because of this. I thrive on hard courses and do poorly on easier ones, again, relative to the field. I can't explain why. It just is what it is.

So I will have a worse experience in season 3.

Golfers who will also have a worse experience.

1) Those who need the extra challenge and are bored with the easier courses.
2) Those who also play better, relative to the field, on harder courses.
3) Those who suddenly see that it is harder to place because more golfers are bunched together in the standings.

So the question becomes, does TGCT lose those golfers in order to retain the ones who simply hate firm greens? If the gain/loss is positive gain then the right decision was made.

Am I so sure that I'd bet my bank account on it?

Not even close.

Wag, earlier you said that you struggle most on firm conditions and now you are saying that you thrive on hard courses? Which is it, or do you simply exist to be contrarian?

TGCTs membership is not going to live and die by this decision. People come and go because they have lives, other commitments, other interests, not because the admins have conspired to make course conditions unsuitable to their liking. Ultimately, this is a video game, a very fun game with a great community but it does not pay very well and can eat up a ton of time  Burnout is burnout, it does not have to have a cause and it is easy to attribute the cause to something when in reality maybe the game just isn't as fun after 1,500x rounds.
 
One of the most common complaints has always been that under firm settings, many greens cannot be held regardless of the shot being hit, especially on downwind holes. This is unrealistic and turns TGCT into a chipping challenge. It also gives players who play late and rely on ghosts a significant advantage (way more so than under soft or medium conditions). 

TGC Admins are not the USGA. It is in the best interest of the tournament directors to schedule courses and conditions that the members will enjoy. They have done a pretty damn solid job IMO sorting through feedback and amending rules/policies on the fly.

Regarding your three points:
1) These people are important, no doubt, but few and far between. Show me one person who loves the challenge of breaking par and I will show you ten who enjoy trying to break 60. They will still get their 1 or 2 courses per month on firm settings. Furthermore, we've seen some great tournaments this year on Medium courses (which played pretty tough!) - Riverside as a recent example.
2) Small sample size and IMO unlikely to be true in the long term. Looking at the results from some of the tougher tournaments (Ratel, Harbour Pointe, Legacy), I see the same faces at the top.
3) This is counter-intuitive to me. If the standings are bunched, competition increases? While I don't expect to win anytime soon, I will be more motivated if I am 3 shots away from a top 10 compared to 13. I don't see this changing much anyways - there is no data that proves it to be the case.

Overall, my only real concern is the recent ski slope greens. You can build dramatic slopes and levels into a green and penalise people for hitting shots slightly off target, but 3 foot putts shouldn't have to be aimed 5 feet to the right. I played the Ryder Cup E course last night, and while it is a grind and a pain in the ass, I would rather play a course like this one that punishes miss-hit approach shots versus one like Bay Hill or East Lake where the pins are on the most slopey part of the green, and the course has zero other defence.

Anyways, good discussion and looking forward to Season 3.

Ben, let me clarify my point about firm greens.

Yes, they are very difficult for me. Against a top player, this is what the score will look like on average.

Me - 69
Them - 62

They will kill me. I have no doubt about this.

However, and this is why I still PREFER firm greens, against players of my OWN SKILL LEVEL, this is how the scores relatively play out.

On easy courses.

Me - 64 
Them - 62 

On firm greens

Me - 69
Them - 70 to 72

It seems, from my experience, that golfers on my level probably don't play firm greens as much or just hate them so much that they get immediately defeated and thus, when confronted with them, I perform better because I accept them more graciously, for lack of a better word.

On easy courses, I can't take as much advantage of them as other golfers in my skill area. I can't tell you why. It just is what it is. My results prove this time and time again.

So, while the better golfers are still going to bury me on firm greens, I will still have a better chance of making the cut on firm greens because I will perform better relative to the bottom end of the field.

Is that now clearer as to why I said what I said.

In short, yes, I suck on firm greens but I don't suck as much as other golfers on my end of the spectrum.

[Deleted]

Sept 13, 2016 11:20:20 GMT -5 staypuft39 said:

Wags logic:
From "I can't compete in web on easier courses"
to
"I can beat Sweeney on an easy course"
...in 5 minutes.

Again, on a hard course against Ian I have ZERO chance. He will beat me by a good 10 strokes.

On an easy course, it is going to be a MUCH closer match and YES, I will at least have a CHANCE to beat him.

That is all I am saying. Put us both on flat green courses where I know I can shoot 54. How much is he going to beat me by without pulling out ace's and eagles? Not much if at all, right?

[dh-nufc]

The decision has been made now and we have to do our best as designers and schedulers to come up with a season of golf courses which will test all of the different skills on offer by the players.
Variety is the key. I would have been happier if the new stance was a guideline only and not a hard and fast rule, specially in the context of 1 firm round out of 4 counting as a firm tournament.
We have a number of different techniques available to design and set-up courses and we need to use them all to a certain extent.

Firm courses where greens are designed to hold when not lofting up 2+ boxes
Tucked pins on a number of holes(Not all) so long as the centre of the green is accessible. There's nothing wrong with having a 25 foot putt for birdie.
Run off areas so that you can't just aim for rough and chip in.
More yardage, make par 5's 3 proper shots.
More difficult sloping greens(No yellow or red is allowed in a grid of 9 boxes around the hole though)
Narrower fairways. (But with options for more to aim at if something less than a driver is used)
Obstructions(Trees) and shot shaping requirements for tee shots and approaches.

Variety of green speeds over the week.
We have enough options using a number of these techniques to test different skills every week, none of which are tricked up, you could see them on any real life course.

This won't change things as drastically as people think. We can still make every week a challenge in a different way but hopefully keep burnout to a minimum. I know it's hard to do on a game people have been playing for 2 years.

[Doyley]

Sept 13, 2016 9:29:48 GMT -5 mrooola said:

I personally don't see why a tye Dunes and a crooked stick could not be scheduled on the same month as they both work well under those conditions.

While I think a lot of us have no issues with firm courses done right - there are just as many (if not more) that don't enjoy even the best laid out firm courses.  Just consider Season 2 the year of the firm so if you enjoy the firm courses you got your fix more often than not this season.  Season 3 will be more for the medium firm folk with a bit less max firm on the menu (but not removed entirely).  

Also I'm trying to dial back the course difficulty in general across the tours and ride out TGC1 in style - still up to the designers and schedulers to provide/find courses that fit that description.  We want a variety of styles & difficulties - I think you can still get that even when 75% of the courses will be medium/soft firm.