TGCT - Season 3 - Firm green policy (updated)

[SMIFFYLFC79]

Any chance of getting the hole made slightly bigger for season 3 that would help greatly

[Brighttail]

Well this is certainly an interesting development. I have to say it saddens me a bit. Yes some folks will say, "But Brighttail you always whined with firm courses in the past." I'll remind you I whined when a course that was designed for medium greens was tweaked to a firmness level that was completely unrealistic and unfair. Of course in season 1, we didn't have much of a choice as most course creators were newbs and didn't understand all the things needed to make a good quality firm course. There were exceptions but in season one it was few.

Season 2 we had a lot more courses to choose from and courses were actually being created with large greens and/or enough areas in front of the green to hop up on properly. There were many great courses in Season 2 that came out.

For me the problem in season 2 wasn't the firmness but the pin placements on many courses. Even with some of the medium firmness courses having one or two squares to land the ball over a hazard was simply ridiculous, and when over half the holes in a round was set up that way it became ludicrous. Crooked Stick is a prime example of a firm course that played quite well. Yes there were a couple of holes that had tucked pins but it was one or two per round which is perfectly acceptable.

Look a course like Trump national that we played earlier. If the winds were low and you didn't shoot a minimum of -16 you were out of contention, I think we even had a -19 or -20 that tournament. While that type of course is fine every now and then, I hope we aren't going to get a slew of courses that become a dart throwing contest.

Like others, I fear that the alternative to a well built firm course is going to be a course that every hole is placed either atop a mountain or right next to a mountain, where you have to chose an uphill putt of 20+ feet (risking it rolling back to your feet) or a 12 foot putt that if you miss, rolls down that same hill. Putts that are 8 feet that have two grids of break are not fun. Having a course where each hole like that is simply intolerable.

While I agree, it would be nice to have courses have multiple firmness, remember someone has to build them. This means that the either the greens have to be built for firm conditions so when you soften them then it is dart throwing or you gotta make the greens smaller for medium and firm them up for unrealistic 218 yard par 3s with no way of stopping it on the green. I fear it is a no-win scenario.

I also agree that we are past the point of trying to make courses for "realistic" scoring. I believe Doyley and the admins have made this decision for the following reason. The elite are going to always shoot better than the rest of the field, regardless of the conditions. With this being the case, this decision is mainly for the rest of us to feel better. On medium or soft conditions we might only shoot -10/-12 to their -14/-16 whereas on firm greens we might shoot -4 to their -12. Us mediocre pga/euro players will feel better about our games losing by 2-3 strokes per round than 6-10.

As I said, it is all a no-win scenario for the admin and I get that and apologize in advance for the b%&ing (on my part) in the future. Hopefully we can get by all this until TGC2 comes out and we have a whole new set of things to b%& about.

Bottom line for me to the admin, pay more attention to pin placement than you have in Season 2. I'm not saying all holes need to be accessible, but be conscious of slopes and placing pins on top of overturned soup bowls. Finally, I highly suggest course designers look at East Lake. You want to make the course more challenging without adding enormous amounts of ridiculous slopes? Don't encircle the green in rough. Let there be areas that if a player goes for a tucked pin and miss a little long or left/right, the ball rolls off the green and down a soft slope of 5-8 yards of fringe before it hits the rough. This will stop players from aiming for the rough and an easy chip/flop. A gentle slope 2-3 grids after the pin that feeds off the green will add to the difficulty, rewarding a good shot and penalizing a poor shot, all without messing with the firmness of the green. Chip-ins and flop-ins should be the exception, not the rule.

[Crazycanuck1985]

Pfft....everyone has gone soft. Literally. 

Guess I'll halt progress on my new course for a new Season 3 Major - The Burnout Open - Sponsored by SmurfTears       

That green have a break to it? You have to bounce the ball up onto the green sometimes? Reach for an ice cold bottle of SmurfTears!  




3 iron into this green. Firm settings. Sweeney could put it to 5 feet.




Look, I even softened up some of the landing areas. Irving could put it to 5 feet.




A gentle slope here. I'll admit, I slightly Canucked this green.

[Doyley]

Nice job Canuck - the time off has really sharpened your skills!

[smurfblade88]

Sept 12, 2016 19:29:31 GMT -5 ijs1543 said:

Sept 12, 2016 19:23:19 GMT -5 Doyley said:

Don't see it affecting much - I'll follow the schedule of whichever tour the event turns up on - so since the US Open is on PGA and The Open is on Euro - technically they could both be firm even though they are weeks apart.

As long as we keeping picking the courses that smurf don't like ill be happy

Haha Have no fear

[Deleted]

Sept 13, 2016 0:25:02 GMT -5 Crazycanuck1985 said:

Pfft....everyone has gone soft. Literally. 

Guess I'll halt progress on my new course for a new Season 3 Major - The Burnout Open - Sponsored by SmurfTears       

That green have a break to it? You have to bounce the ball up onto the green sometimes? Reach for an ice cold bottle of SmurfTears!  




3 iron into this green. Firm settings. Sweeney could put it to 5 feet.




Look, I even softened up some of the landing areas. Irving could put it to 5 feet.




A gentle slope here. I'll admit, I slightly Canucked this green.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Morgan-esque]

Basically what smurf has said. The last week or so, and the next few course coming up the pin positions have been ridiculous sitting on yellow slopes. This seems to be the new-found way to trick things up. I suppose it's one way to make us miss a ton of 3ft putts!

[smurfblade88]

Sept 13, 2016 6:16:22 GMT -5 Morgan-esque said:

Basically what smurf has said. The last week or so, and the next few course coming up the pin positions have been ridiculous sitting on yellow slopes. This seems to be the new-found way to trick things up. I suppose it's one way to make us miss a ton of 3ft putts!

Ye its nonsense. A cheap way of getting varying scores on a hole. If i or anybody hit an approach shot in to 3-6ft there should be a reward. Not a putt with 10ft of break or that forces u to risk smashin the putt off the green cz u wanna take some break out.

The difficulty shud be in the tee shots and approach shots, not in the 5 foot putts.

Quite frankly id rather play the ratel than a course with easy tee shots and approaches but leave u Canuck style 5 foot putts. Its jus lazy designing and tourny set ups.

[unclefester75]

...and while we are on the subject, no more sloped fairways! I hate that i have to aim left or right to compensate for where my feet are in relation to the ball.

[Deleted]

Sept 12, 2016 18:27:04 GMT -5 smurfblade88 said:

Sept 12, 2016 18:11:42 GMT -5 @swaeromotion said:

I see an issue with rule #2. I think some good setups can change firmness throughout an event. If someone chooses to go with 2 firm and 2 medium (ideally one of each before and after the cut), that counts toward that months' firm quota? I think thats exactly what we need more of, IMO.

I can just see 4 mediums with 187 greens along with jacked pins coming.

Thats what im fearing too.

Typically what id like too see from each event if possible is

3 different firmness setting used- Soft, Medium & Firm

4 different green speeds used for eg- 125, 145, 165, 175 (leave 187s for big events).

Pins- A good selection of easy, medium & hard over the 4 rnds.

Id like to see the ski sloping greens abolished. More thought and creativity shud be used for greens.

Courses- Id like to see a selection of season 1 courses used again. Theres no shame in re-usin previous courses. Id hav somethin like 1 in every 4 courses being a course we previously used if possible.

The events jus need to be fun again IMO. And for me thats by havin a tough but fair challenge on the pro tours.

Jus to finish on the firmness thing its not that firm greens shud be gotten rid of its that tricked up firm courses shud be consigned to the dust bin.

Brian, I agree with this post 100% and I seriously wish the powers that be look at it before a final decision is rendered in stone that I feel, IMO, is not going to be for the betterment of this community.

[smurfblade88]

Sept 13, 2016 7:07:59 GMT -5 @wagtunes said:

Sept 12, 2016 18:27:04 GMT -5 smurfblade88 said:

Thats what im fearing too.

Typically what id like too see from each event if possible is

3 different firmness setting used- Soft, Medium & Firm

4 different green speeds used for eg- 125, 145, 165, 175 (leave 187s for big events).

Pins- A good selection of easy, medium & hard over the 4 rnds.

Id like to see the ski sloping greens abolished. More thought and creativity shud be used for greens.

Courses- Id like to see a selection of season 1 courses used again. Theres no shame in re-usin previous courses. Id hav somethin like 1 in every 4 courses being a course we previously used if possible.

The events jus need to be fun again IMO. And for me thats by havin a tough but fair challenge on the pro tours.

Jus to finish on the firmness thing its not that firm greens shud be gotten rid of its that tricked up firm courses shud be consigned to the dust bin.

Brian, I agree with this post 100% and I seriously wish the powers that be look at it before a final decision is rendered in stone that I feel, IMO, is not going to be for the betterment of this community.

Ye its hard to know exactly what Doyley has planned for the set ups. Like i touched on before, firm greens are fine on courses designed for them, the likes of a Tye Dunes, Lytham, Magnolia (Firm), Troon etc are all some of the best courses in the game and thats because they arnt tricked up, they allow good shots to be rewarded.

Im pretty sure what most of us have grown tired of is the courses with greens that dont suit max firmness. Small greens, tucked pins forcing us to try for lucky bounces out of rough just to hold a green is where my frustration of firm greens comes from.

We dont really know what the set ups will look like for S3 or how the structure of S3 will look with TGC2 comin nxt year so until we get absolute clarity on these things we jus dont know what to expect.

[mrooola]

All I'll say is that I think the restrictions should be 1 firm and 1 mixed / month or 2 mixed.

I see many here debate pros and cons for their cause. I agree with some and I don't agree with some. The only thing here that really annoys me are the ones who claims their personal views as facts. They are not. Just stop... please...

Let's see where this ends up...

[Deleted]

Sept 13, 2016 8:58:28 GMT -5 mrooola said:

All I'll say is that I think the restrictions should be 1 firm and 1 mixed / month or 2 mixed.

I see many here debate pros and cons for their cause. I agree with some and I don't agree with some. The only thing here that really annoys me are the ones who claims their personal views as facts. They are not. Just stop... please...

Let's see where this ends up...

Ola, there is one fact that can't be argued. This will be an easier season. If you were to take a poll of all the golfers, you would find that the most difficult thing they feel they have to deal with in this game is firm greens. Otherwise, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Okay, so now that I've stated the obvious, with an easy tee to fairway and fairway to green mechanic (which is why so many of us are waiting for TGC 2) until that time comes, what's going to keep each tourney from turning into who gets the luckier breaks? Imagine, if you will, that everybody was shooting at flat soft greens for 72 holes. Whoever managed to sink ace's, eagles and even double eagles the most would determine who the winner would be. And we all know that for those shots, a lot of luck is involved. So your finish will essentially be a roll of the dice in the upper tiers. In those conditions, I could have a chance of beating The Machine. I certainly wouldn't lose by 10 strokes.

Well, IMO (yes, IMO) what we're going to have now isn't going to be much better, especially in the upper tiers. Look at the scores these guys are posting now WITH firm greens. What do you think they're going to do to courses without what is essentially that last line of defense and in many cases, the ONLY line of defense.

In addition to this, having fewer courses with firm greens means you get less practice on them which means you probably don't improve as much as you would have had you had more opportunity to play them. I have been told by almost every golfer here that you don't improve by playing easy courses. Were they lying to me?

I see no good coming of this. Yes, that's my opinion. But I'll bet every dollar in my bank account that the sum total of affect on the golfers is going to be worse than had we kept the firm greens but just stopped making stupid courses with pins on top of mountains or tucked 4 yards behind a sand trap. That's what's wrong with this game. Not the firm greens.

It comes down to poor, tricked up course design.

That is what's burning out golfers. Not the firmness of the greens.

Even I can see that and I stink at this game.

[Chief Banks]

Good call on that Doyley, I think that people will enjoy that a whole lot more. Save the firm greens to majors (in all flights)

[mrooola]

Sept 13, 2016 9:14:16 GMT -5 @wagtunes said:

Sept 13, 2016 8:58:28 GMT -5 mrooola said:

All I'll say is that I think the restrictions should be 1 firm and 1 mixed / month or 2 mixed.

I see many here debate pros and cons for their cause. I agree with some and I don't agree with some. The only thing here that really annoys me are the ones who claims their personal views as facts. They are not. Just stop... please...

Let's see where this ends up...

Ola, there is one fact that can't be argued. This will be an easier season. If you were to take a poll of all the golfers, you would find that the most difficult thing they feel they have to deal with in this game is firm greens. Otherwise, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Okay, so now that I've stated the obvious, with an easy tee to fairway and fairway to green mechanic (which is why so many of us are waiting for TGC 2) until that time comes, what's going to keep each tourney from turning into who gets the luckier breaks? Imagine, if you will, that everybody was shooting at flat soft greens for 72 holes. Whoever managed to sink ace's, eagles and even double eagles the most would determine who the winner would be. And we all know that for those shots, a lot of luck is involved. So your finish will essentially be a roll of the dice in the upper tiers. In those conditions, I could have a chance of beating The Machine. I certainly wouldn't lose by 10 strokes.

Well, IMO (yes, IMO) what we're going to have now isn't going to be much better, especially in the upper tiers. Look at the scores these guys are posting now WITH firm greens. What do you think they're going to do to courses without what is essentially that last line of defense and in many cases, the ONLY line of defense.

In addition to this, having fewer courses with firm greens means you get less practice on them which means you probably don't improve as much as you would have had you had more opportunity to play them. I have been told by almost every golfer here that you don't improve by playing easy courses. Were they lying to me?

I see no good coming of this. Yes, that's my opinion. But I'll bet every dollar in my bank account that the sum total of affect on the golfers is going to be worse than had we kept the firm greens but just stopped making stupid courses with pins on top of mountains or tucked 4 yards behind a sand trap. That's what's wrong with this game. Not the firm greens.

It comes down to poor, tricked up course design.

That is what's burning out golfers. Not the firmness of the greens.

Even I can see that and I stink at this game.

For sure. S.3 will be easier on all levels except CC as I think this policy is pretty much where they are at already, but that's the whole point of this new guideline. It's about trying to keep players playing and not alienate those who does not enjoy the firm greens.

Tougher courses do make you a better player, but again. For s.3 it seems the aim of tgct is not to make you a better golfer, but to keep the interest of continuing to participate until tgc2 arrives among the masses.

I'm not saying or claiming this new direction is the best in terms of competition, but I'll support it never the less if the results are that more people will enjoy next season.

My personal stance is let the schedulers schedule whatever they see fit. I personally don't see why a tye Dunes and a crooked stick could not be scheduled on the same month as they both work well under those conditions. If the schedulers don't do a well enough job in their selection the admins should tell them.

With that said though I understand why Doyley wants to go this route for above reasons (give or take a few) and I'll support it if it benefits the health of tgct as a whole.