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Post by Doyley on Sept 12, 2016 19:50:41 GMT -5
wagtunes, give Midnight Sun a try. Especially setup E. That is the Ryder Cup singles round. All Ryder Cup setups are slow or medium firmness. Lemme know what you think. There are ways to "trick up" a non-firm setup for sure. In the end, we play against the opponents in our tour. Gotta remember that. I didn't send that one to the Rangers because I don't have enough health insurance to cover the heart attacks. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2016 19:51:45 GMT -5
wagtunes, give Midnight Sun a try. Especially setup E. That is the Ryder Cup singles round. All Ryder Cup setups are slow or medium firmness. Lemme know what you think. There are ways to "trick up" a non-firm setup for sure. In the end, we play against the opponents in our tour. Gotta remember that. that's a great course mate  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2016 20:08:49 GMT -5
that's a great course mate You should have stayed burnt out Bob  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2016 20:09:42 GMT -5
You should have stayed burnt out Bob WTF? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2016 20:23:19 GMT -5
Thats a good step IMO. Tbh i dont mind firm courses as long as it was designed to accommodate firm greens. Some of the best course in the game are firm and have very creative greens that always seem to allow a good shot to be rewarded. I like medium and soft greens too but wat i dont like is ridiculous ski sloping greens with pins on slopes. If this is the direction tgct is headed I think the burn outs will still continue. We'll wait n see though. Im glad a change has been made and it appears some of our concerns have been listened to. What Smurf say's is spot on.
Not sure that 1 round of firm in an event should max out the allotted use of firm for the month though. As Smurf said, if the greens were designed to play firm then there's no problem with it. It's the over use of 480 yard par 4's with a pin at the front of the green 3 yards over a hazard that I would say is burning people out the most. What are we going to get now, the same hole, but now the pin will be 1 1/2 yards over the hazard?
Guess we'll see what designers come up with.
Any word on when Season 3 will officially start?
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Post by mcbogga on Sept 12, 2016 20:25:03 GMT -5
I see an issue with rule #2. I think some good setups can change firmness throughout an event. If someone chooses to go with 2 firm and 2 medium (ideally one of each before and after the cut), that counts toward that months' firm quota? I think thats exactly what we need more of, IMO. I can just see 4 mediums with 187 greens along with jacked pins coming. Thats what im fearing too. Typically what id like too see from each event if possible is 3 different firmness setting used- Soft, Medium & Firm 4 different green speeds used for eg- 125, 145, 165, 175 (leave 187s for big events). Pins- A good selection of easy, medium & hard over the 4 rnds. Id like to see the ski sloping greens abolished. More thought and creativity shud be used for greens. Courses- Id like to see a selection of season 1 courses used again. Theres no shame in re-usin previous courses. Id hav somethin like 1 in every 4 courses being a course we previously used if possible. The events jus need to be fun again IMO. And for me thats by havin a tough but fair challenge on the pro tours. Jus to finish on the firmness thing its not that firm greens shud be gotten rid of its that tricked up firm courses shud be consigned to the dust bin.
Very well said - Smurf. Mixed conditions also means that winners need to be well rounded players. Pretty much everyone plays better on one type of set-up so this would allow for tighter tournaments.
So I think as well that the second part of the rule should be modified to allow for mixed set ups and they should be promoted by schedules.
My theory is that it's not so much firm set-ups causing burn-out but burn-out creating excessive frustration with the game and firm set ups.
Believe it or not - but pins placed on slopes bordering yellow is a pet peeve of mine as well. Ocasionally and smart use of it that fits the hole is great (shorter quirky hole, some par fives) but on too many holes it's just bad set-up and not mimicing how tournament courses are actually set up.
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Post by throwinbohs on Sept 12, 2016 20:29:38 GMT -5
Thats a good step IMO. Tbh i dont mind firm courses as long as it was designed to accommodate firm greens. Some of the best course in the game are firm and have very creative greens that always seem to allow a good shot to be rewarded. I like medium and soft greens too but wat i dont like is ridiculous ski sloping greens with pins on slopes. If this is the direction tgct is headed I think the burn outs will still continue. We'll wait n see though. Im glad a change has been made and it appears some of our concerns have been listened to. 100% this comment. Lightning fast/firm greens are certainly difficult and frustrating (especially for this CC-D player) but I'm ok with par being a good score sometimes. It's the ridiculous pins placed on the sides of cliffs that are burning me out on this game. |
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Post by Lowenberger on Sept 12, 2016 20:39:08 GMT -5
Thats a good step IMO. Tbh i dont mind firm courses as long as it was designed to accommodate firm greens. Some of the best course in the game are firm and have very creative greens that always seem to allow a good shot to be rewarded. I like medium and soft greens too but wat i dont like is ridiculous ski sloping greens with pins on slopes. If this is the direction tgct is headed I think the burn outs will still continue. We'll wait n see though. Im glad a change has been made and it appears some of our concerns have been listened to. What Smurf say's is spot on.
Not sure that 1 round of firm in an event should max out the allotted use of firm for the month though. As Smurf said, if the greens were designed to play firm then there's no problem with it. It's the over use of 480 yard par 4's with a pin at the front of the green 3 yards over a hazard that I would say is burning people out the most. What are we going to get now, the same hole, but now the pin will be 1 1/2 yards over the hazard?
Guess we'll see what designers come up with.
Any word on when Season 3 will officially start?
100% on this. Hope this doesn't discourage designers from doing firm courses since firm done right are some of the best in the game. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2016 20:42:25 GMT -5
wagtunes, give Midnight Sun a try. Especially setup E. That is the Ryder Cup singles round. All Ryder Cup setups are slow or medium firmness. Lemme know what you think. There are ways to "trick up" a non-firm setup for sure. In the end, we play against the opponents in our tour. Gotta remember that. Like I said Bob, with some exceptions. The one course I'm testing for CC right now is murder and the greens aren't firm. In fact, it may be the hardest non firm course I have ever played in my over 2800 hours in this game. But those courses are the exception and not the rule. Take the schedule we just played in Web and remove all firm rounds. How many tough courses do you honestly think we would have had? Honestly. And if golfers are going to argue that firm greens don't make the courses harder, why did we have them at all and why the need for a change? Obviously a firm green is tougher and those that master them do better than those, like me, who don't. Look, I am probably going to benefit more from this rule change than anybody else here. I hate firm greens. But I also know that if I can tame them on a given week (which i have done twice) I can do really well, which I did finishing T22 twice. Do you think I would have finished T22 those weeks had the greens been regular for all 4 rounds? Maybe, maybe not. Would have depended entirely on the luck of the drop and not the fact that I was able to perform better on the firm setups than other golfers. At least those two weeks. Yeah, I get that we're going to be playing against the other golfers and not the courses. Except now it's a crap shoot. Essentially, this is the microcosm that we're going to see. John Doe - Shoots 63 on regular green and 64 on firm green John Smith - Shoots 64 on regular green and 69 on firm green John Doe will clearly beat John Smith every tourney because of the firm setup even if the other rounds are toss ups. Now, take away the firm setup and suddenly John Smith has about the same chance to win as John Doe. Now, multiply this by whatever percentage of golfers there are who have huge scoring swings between regular and firm setups. I have got to be near the top of the list. My firm rounds are horrible in comparison. Again, this isn't about realism in scores. That ship sailed when the game was made. This is about separating the men from the boys for MOST courses. That separation will no longer exist. Mostly everybody will have a chance on any given week to make top 10. The standard deviation in scores is going to be but a blip. And this can easily be proven by simply taking the standard deviation of season 2 and comparing it to the standard deviation of season 3. I will bet every dollar in my bank account that it's going to drop by a ton. On the plus side, I no longer dread moving up to the PGA. On the down side, so what? The top line of scoring separation will be gone for 75% of the season. |
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Post by greyosprey on Sept 12, 2016 20:43:07 GMT -5
Being a player that isn't as skilled at this game as others, the firm greens are certainly a challenge, and then some. But my two cents worth is that firm greens work if you have the right course and right pins. I would expect that majors would be a little "firmer" and tougher than regular events. They should be.
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Post by pyates on Sept 12, 2016 21:12:43 GMT -5
I welcome the comeback of medium conditions
As a player I welcome this change, definitely feeling the burnout and don't have the time to master these firm conditions. I enjoy them when done well and I get time to practice on them, but often it has been a chore.
As a designer who kinda specialises in firm/fast I also welcome the change. There are going to be less slots for firm/fast courses but what it does mean is that hopefully when we do play such courses they will be enjoyed a lot more rather than 'oh no another one'. Competition will be intense, but also it should encourage more designers to hopefully not push the boundaries so much and stick to some good course design. If you wanted your course on PGA or Euro you almost had to go firm/fast, now I hope it will allow for a bit more variety in the courses we see.
One small suggestion on the number of allowed firm/fast setups. Why not have a monthly limit of day 5 or 6 setups a month rather than 1 firm week a month potentially with just 1 firm setup in there. Schedulers won't want to waste their firm allowance on a course that can only support 1 or 2 firm/fast setups which would be a shame for the variety we are trying to encourage.
Either way, what I hope this will do is allow for a bit more fun building up to TGC2. The community will seriously boom when that game arrives regardless of what happens now but glad to see TGCT trying to give the game a much needed boost in the lead up. The temptation for many, including myself, is to put the game down until TGC2 but would be a shame for that to happen
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Post by welikeitroughnc on Sept 12, 2016 21:22:21 GMT -5
Seems to me there are three options.. Soft as Sponge.. Bouncy Soft.. Hard as a Brick.. You can go with firm with 150-160 speeds and get a nice mix |
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Post by Doyley on Sept 12, 2016 21:26:25 GMT -5
Guys, they aren't banned lol - you will still be sick of firm courses, just less sick!
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Post by unclefester75 on Sept 12, 2016 21:47:26 GMT -5
wagtunes, give Midnight Sun a try. Especially setup E. That is the Ryder Cup singles round. All Ryder Cup setups are slow or medium firmness. Lemme know what you think. There are ways to "trick up" a non-firm setup for sure. In the end, we play against the opponents in our tour. Gotta remember that. Like I said Bob, with some exceptions. The one course I'm testing for CC right now is murder and the greens aren't firm. In fact, it may be the hardest non firm course I have ever played in my over 2800 hours in this game. But those courses are the exception and not the rule. Take the schedule we just played in Web and remove all firm rounds. How many tough courses do you honestly think we would have had? Honestly. And if golfers are going to argue that firm greens don't make the courses harder, why did we have them at all and why the need for a change? Obviously a firm green is tougher and those that master them do better than those, like me, who don't. Look, I am probably going to benefit more from this rule change than anybody else here. I hate firm greens. But I also know that if I can tame them on a given week (which i have done twice) I can do really well, which I did finishing T22 twice. Do you think I would have finished T22 those weeks had the greens been regular for all 4 rounds? Maybe, maybe not. Would have depended entirely on the luck of the drop and not the fact that I was able to perform better on the firm setups than other golfers. At least those two weeks. Yeah, I get that we're going to be playing against the other golfers and not the courses. Except now it's a crap shoot. Essentially, this is the microcosm that we're going to see. John Doe - Shoots 63 on regular green and 64 on firm green John Smith - Shoots 64 on regular green and 69 on firm green John Doe will clearly beat John Smith every tourney because of the firm setup even if the other rounds are toss ups. Now, take away the firm setup and suddenly John Smith has about the same chance to win as John Doe. Now, multiply this by whatever percentage of golfers there are who have huge scoring swings between regular and firm setups. I have got to be near the top of the list. My firm rounds are horrible in comparison. Again, this isn't about realism in scores. That ship sailed when the game was made. This is about separating the men from the boys for MOST courses. That separation will no longer exist. Mostly everybody will have a chance on any given week to make top 10. The standard deviation in scores is going to be but a blip. And this can easily be proven by simply taking the standard deviation of season 2 and comparing it to the standard deviation of season 3. I will bet every dollar in my bank account that it's going to drop by a ton. On the plus side, I no longer dread moving up to the PGA. On the down side, so what? The top line of scoring separation will be gone for 75% of the season. Huh? |
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Post by mcbogga on Sept 12, 2016 23:31:59 GMT -5
Guys, they aren't banned lol - you will still be sick of firm courses, just less sick! This is an Internet forum, Doyles - you cannot win. |
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