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Post by Pubknight on Jul 6, 2015 7:08:31 GMT -5
Probably a better idea to post this in the suggestion box, but here we go.. I think tournament course designers, and TGCTours needs to start thinking about courses being shorter rather than longer.
Since our avatars have their distance pre-set... they are playing 207 yard 3 irons. Pros are hitting 200 yard 5 irons. Likewise a green we are hitting 8 iron into, they would be hitting wedge. Entirely changes the green holding capabilities of the shots.
Then you can require really precise areas of the green to hit to score, but still give safe bailout areas.
Something to think about at least...
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Post by blackaces13 on Jul 6, 2015 7:20:04 GMT -5
You also have to consider that pros don't have remotely close to the same level of control over their ball that we do in this game. A decent TGC player will have far better FIR/GIR than any player in the history of golf.
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Post by mcbogga on Jul 6, 2015 10:35:28 GMT -5
Probably a better idea to post this in the suggestion box, but here we go.. I think tournament course designers, and TGCTours needs to start thinking about courses being shorter rather than longer. Since our avatars have their distance pre-set... they are playing 207 yard 3 irons. Pros are hitting 200 yard 5 irons. Likewise a green we are hitting 8 iron into, they would be hitting wedge. Entirely changes the green holding capabilities of the shots. Then you can require really precise areas of the green to hit to score, but still give safe bailout areas. Something to think about at least... Its been done. A mix is usually best. 18 wedges into crowned postage stamp greens gets old too.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2015 11:12:54 GMT -5
A mix is definitely best. Use all the clubs in the bag. It's the size of the green to match the approach that needs to be thought about. No good intentionally making a two shot par 5 or Long par 4 if you're going to have a firm small green.
Anybody watch the French open last week? Firm and fast with big ass greens with slopes in the right places. Course looked brilliant. A course like that would be my dream to create in the GNCD. I'm very bad at using the brushes though, still learning. Maybe one day...
Also, did anyone see that post about pin placements that hb studios posted? The gist I got from it is that it's best to have 8 feet of green coloured green grid away from the hole in all directions.
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Post by mcbogga on Jul 6, 2015 11:20:08 GMT -5
A mix is definitely best. Use all the clubs in the bag. It's the size of the green to match the approach that needs to be thought about. No good intentionally making a two shot par 5 or Long par 4 if you're going to have a firm small green. Anybody watch the French open last week? Firm and fast with big ass greens with slopes in the right places. Course looked brilliant. A course like that would be my dream to create in the GNCD. I'm very bad at using the brushes though, still learning. Maybe one day... Also, did anyone see that post about pin placements that hb studios posted? The gist I got from it is that it's best to have 8 feet of green coloured green grid away from the hole in all directions. A small defended green on a shortish par 5 is the norm I would say. Should be built to make the player think twice about puling a wood and defend primarily against a shorter wedge shot. Also keep in mind that 8 feet is about the lenght of 2.5 grid squares - so 3d line out from the hole.....
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2015 11:26:35 GMT -5
I know what you're saying. Make it difficult to choose whether to attack or lay up but it's got to be big enough for where attacking is a viable option, otherwise you'll just lay up all the time. Pointless.
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Post by pyates on Jul 6, 2015 11:45:27 GMT -5
I know what you're saying. Make it difficult to choose whether to attack or lay up but it's got to be big enough for where attacking is a viable option, otherwise you'll just lay up all the time. Pointless. You might... For others if the green is within range they are going for it ... I know plenty of times I've walked off with a par after a poor chip thinking "if only I played safe I'd have had an easy pitch up and down for birdie"... Doesn't necessarily put me off next round either. Allowing players to make stupid/reckless decisions means that over 4 rounds the better players are likely to have 4 birdies, a crazy person such as myself might have 1 eagle, 1 birdie, 1 par and a bogey which would mean 2 shots down on the field. Though depends how viable you mean, when there is absolutely no chance of holding you are right all a small green does is remove options. I tend to chip in quite a lot as well so I'd probably be happy to get close to the flag but off the green for a chance at eagle.
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Post by CTLegacy on Jul 6, 2015 11:48:17 GMT -5
Yes because the courses now are too tough right?
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Post by Pubknight on Jul 6, 2015 12:19:18 GMT -5
Probably a better idea to post this in the suggestion box, but here we go.. I think tournament course designers, and TGCTours needs to start thinking about courses being shorter rather than longer. Since our avatars have their distance pre-set... they are playing 207 yard 3 irons. Pros are hitting 200 yard 5 irons. Likewise a green we are hitting 8 iron into, they would be hitting wedge. Entirely changes the green holding capabilities of the shots. Then you can require really precise areas of the green to hit to score, but still give safe bailout areas. Something to think about at least... Its been done. A mix is usually best. 18 wedges into crowned postage stamp greens gets old too. I was thinking more along the lines of your Tobo course to be honest. Thought that was really the right balance.
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Post by DivotMaker on Jul 7, 2015 16:36:10 GMT -5
Not a fan of the course because of how blatantly tricked up it is. There's a way to trick up courses without making it so obvious. Combining the firmness, speed, and sloped of the green is just dumb. It's not that you can't score under par, it's just that you look at a hole and laugh at how tricked up it is. I'm okay with the majority of them, but #14 and #15 are just the tip of the iceberg for me. #14 pretty much forces you to hit 3 wood which leaves you with about 210 yards uphill to a green that is completely blocked by trees. I mean you're in the middle of the fairway and have to aim 10 yards right of the green to hit a 3 iron into a tucked pin. One of the worst holes that's probably been on tour. #15 is a razor thin fairway, which I'm fine with, but the whole fairway slopes hard to the left and unless you land it in the right rough, you're basically going to roll into the left rough if you hit the fairway on the fly. Then the pin is once again just completely tucked and inaccessible because you're almost certainly going to be in the rough unless you get a helpful wind or something. It's a very nice looking course except for the bunker sculpting, but the blatant tricked up part of it could've been fixed and it wouldn't have made it that much easier. Agreed with Duke. Don't mind playing difficult courses but Harbour Pointe seems like it's been made just for that purpose and there's great tough courses designed out there which would be better equipped. Didn't enjoy my practice round there so Euro again next week. Ridiculous course, ridiculous pin placements, and ridiculous green speeds. I am seeing a trend of tricked up courses trying to protect par and it is getting old. Might be time to take a few weeks off the PGA TOUR and play Euro or something else because the course selections are getting irritating. When you can't get a full LW to stop on the green, then as a designer, you have gone too far IMO. Very much appreciate our TGC designers, but sometimes they get it wrong when it could have been so right..... To illustrate my point further, I hit a perfect PW below the pin on 18 on most courses I would have had a 5-7 foot putt. I am now looking at a 36' putt 2 feet uphill. Sorry, but that is nonsense and so unnecessary to test good TGC golfers.
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Post by CGilb on Jul 7, 2015 16:44:07 GMT -5
i can't stand it anymore. i'm not playing the pga this week, decided to do my first euro crossover. however, i'm gonna go ahead and play this course to see if i consider it to be great. chances are i will really love it.
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Post by Brighttail on Jul 7, 2015 18:30:11 GMT -5
I keep saying that courses don't need hard firmness to be difficult or fun. Magnolia was medium firmness and wow, with the large greens, many contours and undulated fairways it was a difficult course. I believe the challenge club was also medium firmness but that didn't make it any less difficult. I find that most designers start building a course with medium firmness, then the admin either get interested in the course and ask them to "toughen it up" or the designer now believes that they need to tweak their course to get it played on tour. Either way, the result is often a course that is not designed for the conditions. I played some holes on the course for the Open championship. In 4mph wind there are several holes, especially on the back nine, where you have a mid to long iron shot and the green literally slopes front to back in some manner. Even hitting on the very front of the green or one hope fairway the ball can't hold the green. My favorite was a 5 iron where I hit the hump just after a bunker, the ball went up, bounced two more times in the heavy rough and barely rolled onto the fringe and even more barely hit the green...then 65 feet to the other side of the green. I would love to try this course with a medium setting just to see how it plays, because I think it would be a very tough test in those conditions. Bottom line, par is a good score and it is fine to have some holes where par is a fabulous score, but there are a lot better ways to make such a hole without tweaking a course out to a firmness it was not designed to be.
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Post by mcbogga on Jul 7, 2015 22:57:33 GMT -5
A course not built and set up for tournament play should be tweaked to get on tgct in my opinion.
Firmness , pin placements, green speed, new tees etc - different actions are needed to different degrees...
Last weeks euro course is a great example - stunning layout and very well designed golf holes - but pins set for the senior weekly stableford. Would have been an interresting test with a new set of tees and pins tucked away.
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