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Post by beamt0wn on May 25, 2021 15:28:27 GMT -5
in late september of last year i had the opportunity to play this incredible course and it did not disappoint. the legends are true: this course is an architecture nerd's holy grail. it's a shame it isn't more widely known. nearly every hole is designed in a way that offers the golfer at least two strategic paths to finish. it really is a lovely course, and the more time i spend looking at the details of each hole, the more i appreciate just how remarkable this cb macdonald design really was/is. a change in pin position and/or wind direction can completely change the challenges you face on a given hole.
so i figured that since nobody has made this course in 2k21 yet and since the number of folks who have played National *and* are into re-making golf courses in a video game is probably in the single-digits, i may as well be the one to do it.
anyway, i'll save the rest of my gushing about how incredible this course is for when i publish it and draft up a full hole-by-hole guide. right now i'm sharing a few screenshots because (1) i'm excited about how it's coming along and (2) i'm hoping for some feedback/suggestions in regard to grass planting and some other stuff.
work remaining
sculpting: planting & ambiance: - course boundary: bushes and trees along course perimeter are mostly just sloppily-planted. will need to do a more detailed measuring/survey on google earth
- grass. grass. grass. grass: tall grass is a major part of this course, both aesthetically and strategically speaking. some areas haven't been planted at all yet, some areas are sloppy, and others are partially planted. obviously the size/density/color of the deep grass varies throughout the year, but i'm going for the fully-grown, late-summer look it had when i was there. these photos should give you an idea: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6
- clubhouse and unused areas of the plot: all very rough right now. i know these things don't matter to the way the course plays, but they are important for that polished, finished look
where i need help/ideas/feedback:
greenside sculpting: how the hell can i sculpt the extremely steep slopes and pot bunkers without affecting the more subtle undulations of the greens? - in a perfect world (or literally any 3d modeling software that isn't junk), i would just mask off or lock certain geometry before going to town on the brushes. or i would just select the relevant mesh points of the geometry and move them. or i would take a flatten brush and move the anchor/target point to the perimeter of the brush and run it along the edge of the green. but i can't do any of these things. wat do?
- the reason this is important is that many of the greenside bunker faces aren't steep enough for balls to roll all the way into the bunker. i've already set the rough firmness and roll to maximum, but balls that i *know* would end up in a bunker in real life get choked up even in light rough and don't end up falling in.
grass planting: the equation for doing this in a way that does justice to the course is eluding me. i need some ideas. here's what i've tried: - spline fill: not nearly dense enough on its own, and as we all know it eats object meter like crazy. plus, the inability to set the input scale/size of the splined grass makes it useless for areas outside the main playing tracks.
- hyperplanting scripts: nominally better than spline fill since i can scale the grass manually. however, the savings in the object meter are offset by how quickly dense planting increases the file size. at the density i want to plant, the grass would need to be jurrassic park size to get full coverage.
- burying bushes/trees: not really a good option because hyperplanting is too unpredictable. the contours of this course would basically require single-planting very large areas to keep the tree/bush from being fully buried or poking out too high. plus, bushes and trees eat a lot more object meter *and* file meter than the grass sprites do.
- combination of spline fill and hyperplanting: probably the best option i've tried so far, and what you see in the screenshots.
gonna page Crazycanuck1985 and b101 here since i've learned a lot from them. but i know yall are busy and it's fine if you can't take the time to deal with my problems. ok, that's enough whining from me. on to what you came here for: screenshots.
and finally, the eye-candy Hole 4 - "Redan" Arguably the best Redan in the world. 15th green is visible in background.
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Hole 14 - "Cape"
The 15th, "Narrows," is visible in background  -- Tee area in the bottom-right, green is top-left --
dat windmill tho
Green of the 3rd hole, "Sahara", is in the lower-left. Green of the 16th, "Punchbowl" is middle-right(ish) of the image. The 17th, "Peconic" is in the background. another multi-hole view the 12th green "Sebonac" is to the left. 7th tee, "St. Andrews" (a road template) is in the middle, looking straight down the fairway (and the 8th is visible waaay in the background. the near green on the right is the 6th, "Short" and the tees behind it to the right. behind those tees is the 5th green "Hog's Back".
whelp, that's all for now. looking forward to some feedback/tips. hope to have this published for play in a week or so!
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Post by b101 on May 25, 2021 15:31:29 GMT -5
Suggest getting joegolferg involved for this. There are tricks with the bunkering, but it's a bit fiddly. I think there was an NGLA lidar file kicking around with a couple of us, but looks like you are way further along. Would love to see this published  |
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Post by mctrees02 on May 25, 2021 15:59:18 GMT -5
I'm fairly certain this is the one I ran across recently with tpetro mattyfromcanada and mattf27 while looking for dumpster fire courses late one night. Is this QFC? If so, I would get with Petro as he's also played NGLA and had some valuable insight on things that need to be corrected. |
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Post by beamt0wn on May 25, 2021 19:04:27 GMT -5
I'm fairly certain this is the one I ran across recently with tpetro mattyfromcanada and mattf27 while looking for dumpster fire courses late one night. Is this QFC? If so, I would get with Petro as he's also played NGLA and had some valuable insight on things that need to be corrected. oh wow how the heck did you find that? i had a buddy of mine publish it under a random-ish name (i have played the quogue field club a handful of times so i picked that acronym because it's near-ish NGLA--i may try to actually do the field club at some point).
i hope it wasn't in the "dumpster fire" category..
anyway, thanks a bunch for dropping some relevant names. i've a new guy around here so it's good to know who to connect with about this stuff.
EDIT: as a note to tpetro since he's played the course: you may have noticed the black tees that clock in at about 7300 yards. i added them because so many people in this game use a driver that hits 320 yard bombs, and the irl tips just aren't long enough. i only added new tee boxes to a few holes, and i tried to do so in a way that still maintained the character of the course and didn't interfere with any existing sightlines. but i was super torn about doing it. if memory serves the new tee boxes are present on 3, 7, 10, 15, 17, and 18. the new tee on 15 wasn't in the version you played (i added it yesterday). the new tee on the 3rd is in a similar location to where they put the tees for the 2013 walker cup. i wasn't able to find any more info about other extended tees for that event, so i used my imagination on the rest. |
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Post by beamt0wn on May 25, 2021 19:20:37 GMT -5
Suggest getting joegolferg involved for this. There are tricks with the bunkering, but it's a bit fiddly. I think there was an NGLA lidar file kicking around with a couple of us, but looks like you are way further along. Would love to see this published thanks for the reply! i'd be happy to share the .course file for anyone who knows what they are doing and might want to look at it in the editor. as mctrees mentioned, you can actually find a "beta" version from about a week ago filed under "QFC beta". i had a buddy publish it for me and didn't expect anyone to find it, but now that cat's outta the bag...
joegolferg lmk if you have a chance to play the published beta and/or want to collaborate on the bunkers or give me a knowledge dump. |
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Post by tpetro on May 25, 2021 19:54:16 GMT -5
I'm fairly certain this is the one I ran across recently with tpetro mattyfromcanada and mattf27 while looking for dumpster fire courses late one night. Is this QFC? If so, I would get with Petro as he's also played NGLA and had some valuable insight on things that need to be corrected. oh wow how the heck did you find that? i had a buddy of mine publish it under a random-ish name (i have played the quogue field club a handful of times so i picked that acronym because it's near-ish NGLA--i may try to actually do the field club at some point).
i hope it wasn't in the "dumpster fire" category..
anyway, thanks a bunch for dropping some relevant names. i've a new guy around here so it's good to know who to connect with about this stuff.
EDIT: as a note to tpetro since he's played the course: you may have noticed the black tees that clock in at about 7300 yards. i added them because so many people in this game use a driver that hits 320 yard bombs, and the irl tips just aren't long enough. i only added new tee boxes to a few holes, and i tried to do so in a way that still maintained the character of the course and didn't interfere with any existing sightlines. but i was super torn about doing it. if memory serves the new tee boxes are present on 3, 7, 10, 15, 17, and 18. the new tee on 15 wasn't in the version you played (i added it yesterday). the new tee on the 3rd is in a similar location to where they put the tees for the 2013 walker cup. i wasn't able to find any more info about other extended tees for that event, so i used my imagination on the rest. Have you actually played QFC a bunch? I'm a member lol, would love to do the LiDAR and would love even more to recreate the long lost back nine. Did notice the new boxes and thought they were mostly very classy - save for on 10. |
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Post by beamt0wn on May 25, 2021 22:12:35 GMT -5
Have you actually played QFC a bunch? I'm a member lol, would love to do the LiDAR and would love even more to recreate the long lost back nine.
holy crap, small world! i've probably played a dozen or so times. my girlfriend's family has had a membership for a long time there, and whenever she and i visit her parents' place for the weekend, i'll usually play a round with her dad and her grandfather. it's a really fun course. i'm a huge fan of the punchbowl green on #2. her dad mentioned that it used to be a full 18, but beyond that i don't know much. in any case, since you're way more familiar with the field club than i am, i'll leave that one to you if you want it. (esp restoration of the original 18). if it'd help though, i'd be happy to finish marking the course on OSM and generate the lidar plot for ya.
Did notice the new boxes and thought they were mostly very classy - save for on 10. lol yeah the 10 tee was a total hack job. it was outside the lidar boundary/mask i drew. i threw it in there quick for a playtest and learned real quick it doesn't work. kinda embarrassing that version has seen the light of day. i'm thinking i'll still have the 10th with an extended tee box, approximately on that same line (because there's nowhere to put it with the 10 tees so close to 9 green), but they won't be as far back and there will actually be a line of sight to the fairway. aside from the trash tees on 10 and the way-overgrassed water areas, did you notice any other glaring errors? i only played the course the one time (though i hope to play again this summer), so i'm by no means an expert and i was overwhelmed enough that some parts of the experience were a bit of a blur.
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Post by tpetro on May 25, 2021 22:30:55 GMT -5
Yeah that would be huge if you could pull that file into game, but you're the only other soul I've met on here who's played it so let's do it together. Will be a TON of fun bringing back that old nine - I'll bring out all the old aerials and diagrams for sure, though it will need some creative imagination in spots lol
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Post by joegolferg on May 26, 2021 5:17:47 GMT -5
Suggest getting joegolferg involved for this. There are tricks with the bunkering, but it's a bit fiddly. I think there was an NGLA lidar file kicking around with a couple of us, but looks like you are way further along. Would love to see this published thanks for the reply! i'd be happy to share the .course file for anyone who knows what they are doing and might want to look at it in the editor. as mctrees mentioned, you can actually find a "beta" version from about a week ago filed under "QFC beta". i had a buddy publish it for me and didn't expect anyone to find it, but now that cat's outta the bag...
joegolferg lmk if you have a chance to play the published beta and/or want to collaborate on the bunkers or give me a knowledge dump. I'm certainly going to play the beta but unfortunately, I really don't have the time at the moment to help out on the bunkering. I was helping out with the bunkering on Brian Petty's Lidar version of NGLA and it took me day's just to do all the bunkers on the first hole. I have other collabs on the go and a contest course that needs to be built to a certain time frame. that said, if there are any particular sculpting issues you are having that you just can't seem to correct feel free to send over the file and I'll have a look. Great job so far judging by the pictures. Look forward to playing it. |
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Post by beamt0wn on May 26, 2021 11:26:00 GMT -5
Yeah that would be huge if you could pull that file into game, but you're the only other soul I've met on here who's played it so let's do it together. Will be a TON of fun bringing back that old nine - I'll bring out all the old aerials and diagrams for sure, though it will need some creative imagination in spots lol i'm into it. i'll work a bit on the OSM marking today. can you DM me an aerial or diagram of the original layout? i imagine it extends beyond the existing course boundaries and i want to make sure i get enough lidar elevation data to cover the full course. thanks for the reply! i'd be happy to share the .course file for anyone who knows what they are doing and might want to look at it in the editor. as mctrees mentioned, you can actually find a "beta" version from about a week ago filed under "QFC beta". i had a buddy publish it for me and didn't expect anyone to find it, but now that cat's outta the bag...
joegolferg lmk if you have a chance to play the published beta and/or want to collaborate on the bunkers or give me a knowledge dump. I'm certainly going to play the beta but unfortunately, I really don't have the time at the moment to help out on the bunkering. I was helping out with the bunkering on Brian Petty's Lidar version of NGLA and it took me day's just to do all the bunkers on the first hole. I have other collabs on the go and a contest course that needs to be built to a certain time frame. that said, if there are any particular sculpting issues you are having that you just can't seem to correct feel free to send over the file and I'll have a look. Great job so far judging by the pictures. Look forward to playing it. no worries at all! totally understand-- some of these bunker complexes are truly ridiculous. would love to hear your feedback/thoughts on the beta. how would you feel about doing a playthrough together via discord? might be more time-efficient for you to just chat as we play the round instead of playing and then me bugging you for feedback. |
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Post by jwtexan on Jun 3, 2021 9:44:23 GMT -5
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Post by beamt0wn on Jun 3, 2021 13:39:06 GMT -5
lol it's getting close! good to see some renewed interest in this thread too. for anyone interested in updates: i settled on the grass planting style that i think is gonna work. 5th attempt is the charm, i guess.
the grass you see in the screenshots has been removed and in its place i'm replanting a mix of two grasses that have a bit more visual density at smaller sizes. currently about 2/3 done with the grass re-planting. it won't be perfect and there will probably be some scale issues here and there, but it's as good as my beginner-ass is gonna get. and yall are just gonna have to deal because i have no appetite to redo the grass a 6th time.
other than that, the last bits i need to do are:
- course boundary planting. gonna try to re-create this as accurately and realistically as i can, but all this grass is eating a lot of object meter and file size, so i'll have to make some compromises here.
- build the clubhouse area
- general detail touch-ups like placing stakes along cart paths, finishing the walking paths between tees and fairways,etc
- make final decisions about pin placements, tee placements, and theme
i could use some help/thoughts/best practices with item #4
for pin placements: i don't want to take the simple route and just make every pin #1 an easy pin and every pin #4 a hard one. i'd like to have a mix of difficulty for each set (but will probably make #4 a little bit harder on the off-chance this course gets tournament play. any rules/guidelines i can follow here?
EDIT: i'm a dummy who can't search and this thread has what i'm looking for i think (but i still am open to other thoughts) for tees: the real course has 3 tee positions on any given day: front (white) middle (green) and back (red). but some holes have more tee placement options than others (e.g. one day the greens might be in box A and another day they would be in box B), and in many cases the hole plays differently depending on the tee box. since HB doesn't allow us to do tee sets like pin sets, what's the best practice? just pick one and stick with it? or make additional tee sets/colors that don't exist irl?
for theme: highlands has the right audio ambiance for an ocean-adjacent course in the NE USA (waves breaking, seagulls). but the visual character is off ("distressed" ground areas near water and planted trees are rocky instead of sandy). the delta and tropical themes have the right visual character and backdrop options, but the audio ambiance has tropical birds and sounds nothing like this place would irl. what's the play here?
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Post by jwtexan on Jun 3, 2021 14:13:53 GMT -5
1. Large oversized and then buried oak trees take up little meter and make for great boundary hiding trees. Also throw in a few black locusts or mesquites in there just slightly smaller than the oak and it will feel very dense. 4. I would say as a rule of thumb you should generally pick the theme early on and stick with it as it can end up dictating a lot of the planting. But, a lot of themes run similar to where a last minute switch isn't killer. Careful, it does reset your lighting and angle of the sun each time you change themes. Delta is probably the play in my opinion for the look, but I have never bothered to pay attention to the tropical sounds, so nice touch picking up on that. Would go with highlands second if you just can't get over the noise. I don't think tropical would fit because of how harsh it is with ground layers around edges of water and planting. Tee manipulation is tricky, but can be done. Basically it allows you to trick the game to where the back tee (red for you) doesn't always have to be the farthest from the hole. Allows you to create different angles on tee shots for par 3s or other interesting ways to play holes over a 4 round tournament if done correctly. Schedulers can then match whatever tee you prefer with whatever pin you think it would play best with. Marlow Heath was a good example of this. Q is the man to go to for tee manipulation stuff. tgctours.proboards.com/thread/25556/manipulate-tee-box-order-tutorialTee manipulation tutorial:
Honestly after re-reading your post I am not sure that is what you are going for, but thought it might help. |
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Post by beamt0wn on Jun 4, 2021 12:32:00 GMT -5
1. Large oversized and then buried oak trees take up little meter and make for great boundary hiding trees. Also throw in a few black locusts or mesquites in there just slightly smaller than the oak and it will feel very dense. this is super helpful! is there a specific oak that works best? maybe one of those smaller ones with the nice round shape, but scaled up and buried?
thanks for this--i'll switch to delta for some playtests and see if i can tolerate those tropical birds. if my sensitivity to the audio ambiance in the themes makes me an outlier and the majority of players would care more about the visuals, then delta is probably the best option. i would love to try out the countryside theme and others, but the lack of an ocean backdrop option for these themes makes it a non-starter. i'll try out a few plays of marlow from different tees to check it out. i did see that manipulation tutorial and in some respects it's helpful, but it's not quite what i'm trying to do. here's a bit more about what i want to do:
since this is a real course, i'd like to re-create it as realistically as possible. in an ideal world that would mean using just 3 tee colors (white, green, red) but with the ability to select more than one placement for each color. the 16th hole is perhaps the clearest example on the course with a total of 5 distinct teeboxes. the diagram below shows all the teeboxes outlined in yellow, and i've put white, green, and red dots in the locations where a golfer could potentially see those tees placed on any given day in real life:
basically if i were to play 3 rounds here from the green tees on 3 separate days, its possible that the tee box i use on the 16th hole would be different for each round. but unless i'm mistaken, there's no way to build this in the designer. if i wanted all the dots on that diagram to be an option, i would need to use 7 different colors.
that's by far the most extreme example though. this course was likely designed to be played from the green (middle) tees, so on most holes with more teeboxes than there are tee markers, it's the green tees that would have more than one potential place. and many holes only have one or two teeboxes and the placement of white, green, and red tees is straightforward.
the solution i'm leaning towards is just to create a second set of middle tees (probably blue because it's closest to green on the color wheel) and use the tee order manipulation on blue and green tees to get a total course yardage that's about the same from both tee sets.
is that the best way to do it? i don't like the solution because it's adding a tee color that doesn't exist irl, and for a hole like 16 one of the teeboxes wouldn't be used. but i can't think of any alternative. i guess i could just choose a single teebox and leave unused teeing areas, but that feels kind of like a crime on a CB Macdonald gem like this. every teebox that exists irl should be playable in this replica.
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Post by jwtexan on Jun 4, 2021 13:45:17 GMT -5
For the oaks, there are dozens in the designer and I think just about any of them would work. Try a few out and see which ones you like once they are buried a bit. Some give better coverage than others and are a bit "flatter" and spread out at the top. I think the more rounded ones wouldn't quite work for what you are going for, so just try some out. Bigger the better since you are burying them anyway. But careful that the ones that are closer to the playing area are a bit smaller because any kind of wind and the trees move and shake quite a bit. looks kind of funny to have a moving tree that is buried if you aren't careful with it.
I see what you mean about the tees, and appreciate the dedication to realism. Unfortunately, I think the tee manipulation trick is just about your only option to get it as close to this as possible. The extra set of a fake color could work too, and I could be wrong, but I think if you create it for 1 hole, you'll need that color tee on every hole to make it playable once published. Again, could be wrong, never tested that.
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