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Post by Brighttail on Mar 25, 2015 15:17:31 GMT -5
This whole, "lets make the courses harder" started with people complaining about the scores being too unrealistic. From my position THAT wasn't the REAL complaint. What I believe they were saying was, "Hey I'm shooting my best and I'm scoring -20 - -30 which on the Real PGA would be a winner and yet, people are shooting -60 and -70, That isn't fair!"
What they were really complaining about is their best is no where close to the elite, but what they said it the scores weren't realistic. So the courses were made tougher, the scores dropped and the cut line dropped. Wanna know what else dropped? The gap between those medium players and the elite. It "dropped" meaning it got larger and now the same people are complaining the courses are too hard cause they can't score a birdie.
In the end I can only speak for myself. I play a course to have fun. Fun for each person is different. Some like the ability to fire at every pin, while others find this boring. Some like each shot to be challenging and each shot having to be perfect and missing it just a bit means you forfeit your chance for birdie and have to settle for a par or worse. Others like finding that ONE way the course designer created to play the whole properly, eg, long iron off the tee and a fade long iron into the hill just before the green.
Personally, I think HARD conditions with FAST Greens are a set of conditions that I do not enjoy playing. When combined, the shots simply do not react the way they were intended. Even a flop shot from the fairway won't spin back. If you are lucky it my stop. Pitches don't check up but will always release.
That being said, HARD conditions with MEDIUM Greens or MEDIUM conditions with FAST Greens to me is the perfect balance between challenging and fair, especially when a course is well designed. Going that extra step up makes the whole course feel like you are playing on ice instead of grass.
I played the new Shakespeare course with Brionne today Thursday and Friday. We were astonished at how many pins were set up on the top of a hill with no level areas to settle it close, even when you have to putt. Miss an inch past the hole back to the front of the green or wherever. Other holes were in a gully where even the worst played shot funneled back towards the hole. I played a bad shot, 20 yards off with squirt, ended 5 feet away. Brionne played a great shot using the rough to stop.. the roll got him to about 18...no reward for a great played shot. In the end it got so silly we just gave up, even though we were both under par. It was no longer fun.
My point is, if the folks here want Hard/Fast conditions then courses should be built from scratch to have reasonable landing areas, fair pin placements and such. You cannot take a course meant for a particular settings and "toughen it up" by firming up the greens, adding some yardage and changing pin placements without changing the other conditions of the course to match it. If the powers that be want to play courses like this all the time then have a 3rd tour or something for it that is equal to the other PGA/Euro tours. It is very disconerning playing a course you like, even register for it only to be told 5 days before you start, everything has changed and all that work you put in practicing in the weeks before hand is useless. You now have to set aside even more time now to figure out what new things you have and if you don't have the time, you are FUBAR'd. There should be at least 2-3 weeks if this is going to happen.
You got what you wished for folks, scores that closer reflect real PGA, but I would love to see a poll on this from the entire populace. Do you really have more fun in Hard/Fast conditions? or would you rather have Medium/Fast or less and see higher scores?
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Post by acidflashback on Mar 25, 2015 15:38:47 GMT -5
hmm I see a copy and paste. Fast/Hard, all day long.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2015 15:59:27 GMT -5
This whole, "lets make the courses harder" started with people complaining about the scores being too unrealistic. From my position THAT wasn't the REAL complaint. What I believe they were saying was, "Hey I'm shooting my best and I'm scoring -20 - -30 which on the Real PGA would be a winner and yet, people are shooting -60 and -70, That isn't fair!" What they were really complaining about is their best is no where close to the elite, but what they said it the scores weren't realistic. So the courses were made tougher, the scores dropped and the cut line dropped. Wanna know what else dropped? The gap between those medium players and the elite. It "dropped" meaning it got larger and now the same people are complaining the courses are too hard cause they can't score a birdie. In the end I can only speak for myself. I play a course to have fun. Fun for each person is different. Some like the ability to fire at every pin, while others find this boring. Some like each shot to be challenging and each shot having to be perfect and missing it just a bit means you forfeit your chance for birdie and have to settle for a par or worse. Others like finding that ONE way the course designer created to play the whole properly, eg, long iron off the tee and a fade long iron into the hill just before the green. Personally, I think HARD conditions with FAST Greens are a set of conditions that I do not enjoy playing. When combined, the shots simply do not react the way they were intended. Even a flop shot from the fairway won't spin back. If you are lucky it my stop. Pitches don't check up but will always release. That being said, HARD conditions with MEDIUM Greens or MEDIUM conditions with FAST Greens to me is the perfect balance between challenging and fair, especially when a course is well designed. Going that extra step up makes the whole course feel like you are playing on ice instead of grass. I played the new Shakespeare course with Brionne today Thursday and Friday. We were astonished at how many pins were set up on the top of a hill with no level areas to settle it close, even when you have to putt. Miss an inch past the hole back to the front of the green or wherever. Other holes were in a gully where even the worst played shot funneled back towards the hole. I played a bad shot, 20 yards off with squirt, ended 5 feet away. Brionne played a great shot using the rough to stop.. the roll got him to about 18...no reward for a great played shot. In the end it got so silly we just gave up, even though we were both under par. It was no longer fun. My point is, if the folks here want Hard/Fast conditions then courses should be built from scratch to have reasonable landing areas, fair pin placements and such. You cannot take a course meant for a particular settings and "toughen it up" by firming up the greens, adding some yardage and changing pin placements without changing the other conditions of the course to match it. If the powers that be want to play courses like this all the time then have a 3rd tour or something for it that is equal to the other PGA/Euro tours. It is very disconerning playing a course you like, even register for it only to be told 5 days before you start, everything has changed and all that work you put in practicing in the weeks before hand is useless. You now have to set aside even more time now to figure out what new things you have and if you don't have the time, you are FUBAR'd. There should be at least 2-3 weeks if this is going to happen. You got what you wished for folks, scores that closer reflect real PGA, but I would love to see a poll on this from the entire populace. Do you really have more fun in Hard/Fast conditions? or would you rather have Medium/Fast or less and see higher scores? Brighttail, I already have a poll like this in the clubhouse, Course and Tour difficulty I think it's called with lot's of valuable feedback but just got admonished for posting it. Plenty of votes on the pole. I couldn't agree with you more. If you get a chance look at my recent posts in the suggestion area, the clubhouse and such. I also do not agree that it would be a good idea to build courses to suit conditions as I believe conditions should change from day to day for every round including lighting. Goes something like this Thursday (Bright Sunlight, medium, medium or somewhere close); Friday (Morning light but not low enough to really affect play too much, medium, very slow); Saturday (afternoon light but still pretty bright, medium, medium fast); Sunday (late afternoon light that starts to affect play a bit, medium, fast) All of these can be mixed up. Lighting should be used to affect play not as a criteria for grading whether a course is good or not. Also, Real PGA players hate playing in those real hard real fast conditions and some consider real hard and real fast as unplayable conditions. I saw the writing on the wall and tried to help but right now it looks like and feels like at least for some that it's the elites tour and they will decide what's what and what's worse is I don't think they see it that way. For anyone that will listen, -Mike  |
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Post by steelereign on Mar 25, 2015 16:01:07 GMT -5
I don't mind any particular course set up. If we are all playing under the same conditions (wind included) then it's all good.
However I do agree with your point about changing the set up 4 days before the tournament starts. I will be lucky to find enough time to get a practice round on each set up before the tourney starts.
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Post by Brighttail on Mar 25, 2015 16:02:25 GMT -5
I agree that conditions can change from day to day and that is fine, publish one course for each day. Perfectly fine with that. The problem arises is when the course was not MEANT for a particular type of conditions and it is 'tweaked' to make it tougher. If a course is designed from the beginning to offer multiple settings, multiple conditions, multiple courses it would be better. In the end if they feel they need to tweak it, then they really have to look at much fairer pin placements, some in round two were utterly ridiculous. Round one was fairly well done.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2015 16:11:18 GMT -5
I agree that conditions can change from day to day and that is fine, publish one course for each day. Perfectly fine with that. The problem arises is when the course was not MEANT for a particular type of conditions and it is 'tweaked' to make it tougher. If a course is designed from the beginning to offer multiple settings, multiple conditions, multiple courses it would be better. In the end if they feel they need to tweak it, then they really have to look at much fairer pin placements, some in round two were utterly ridiculous. Round one was fairly well done. Hey, That's what the poll selection for "I prefer the course to set the conditions" is for. In my opinion course designers should never build their courses to suit conditions. Conditions are things that should affect the difficulty of the round not the course. I thought they should have waited for the update and proceed from there. But I guess it was worth trying just not executed very well. Hopefully they will take the feedback and do some good with it. As to the scores. They are just a number. As I have always said, "It's not the number that the top players are scoring it is my inability to reach it." High numbers don't bother me but apparently I'm in the minority on that subject. I'm trying my best to give the staff some solid feedback. we will see if they listen. -Mike |
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Post by NCFCRulz on Mar 25, 2015 16:30:34 GMT -5
I must admit I find this.weeks course on firm/hard to be the most enjoyable yet. I haven't seen a problem.with any hole. I can iron in 160 yards and run over the green because there is a bunker in front of it or I can leave it 30 yards short and.flop in. I find this course has made me.make more decisions than any other
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Post by AFCTUJacko on Mar 25, 2015 16:47:35 GMT -5
Bigger issue for me is that the frame rate is so bad i can barely string 3 100% shots together
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2015 16:57:26 GMT -5
Bigger issue for me is that the frame rate is so bad i can barely string 3 100% shots together Jacko, Those are supposed to get better with the new update. We will have to test that out. Hope it's true, -Mike  |
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Post by Oblong on Mar 25, 2015 18:21:05 GMT -5
Let me preface this by pointing out I havent complained about course choice and have mentioned I enjoy variety. In any tourney we all play the same course so it is fair play regardless of the difficulty.
And to a degree the cream will rise to the top in any conditions.
That said, there IS an inherit difference in the game of golf when you compare a course that yields -70 scores and one that yields -30 scores. On a -70 course there are basically 2 outcomes available on any hole - birdie or par. On a -30 course you have a much wider scale of potential outcomes - birdie, par, bogey, even sometimes double and triple bogey. Both styles of course can yield equal # of eagles depending on par 5 lengths and lucky holeouts.
To me, a course that yields more possible scoring outcomes on holes is far more exciting and interesting to play. They can also truly separate the players who had the best 4 rounds that week and managed the course the most responsibly. While some of the conditions that yield these results are unrealistic to the real sport, so are the ones that yeild -70 rounds. It's all relative so in the end I favor the conditions/courses that offer the most scoring outcomes per hole and not ones that yield the least.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2015 19:04:52 GMT -5
Hey, I'm not sure how this would work out logistically or how the tour players would feel about it but maybe a simpler solution would be for the time being reduce the number of tour cards to the PGA and Euro tours. Find the first fault line using a spread of statistics, the fault line being the first big change in scores, if that is too small a filed move to the next till you are comfortable and use that to set the number of tour cards. That way the Web A becomes more competitive at the top and sponsor exemptions will allow other players break through. Just a thought, -Mike |
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Post by SloanerTW on Mar 25, 2015 19:17:53 GMT -5
I must admit I find this.weeks course on firm/hard to be the most enjoyable yet. I haven't seen a problem.with any hole. I can iron in 160 yards and run over the green because there is a bunker in front of it or I can leave it 30 yards short and.flop in. I find this course has made me.make more decisions than any other huh? when in the world does laying up on a par 4 make any sense ever?. especially from 160 yds away. If that is the beneficial approach to the hole the course should never be apart of the golf world. I played the shakespeare friday pins and it was not good at all sorry. I'm not even sure how anyone could get past hole #1 and say they are in for a fun tournament. I think there needs to be a guideline of some sort when it comes to toughening up courses. Theres nothing wrong with making birdies hard to get but punishing a player with a bogey because he rolled 1 foot past the hole which makes you roll down a hill and off the green is just flat out wrong. Make it so a player hits it 5+ feet past hes off the green is ok. I don't mean any disrespect to the creator of the course or the people involved in setting up the tournaments but please at least playtest it first. |
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Post by t2theb2 on Mar 25, 2015 19:50:02 GMT -5
I must admit I find this.weeks course on firm/hard to be the most enjoyable yet. I haven't seen a problem.with any hole. I can iron in 160 yards and run over the green because there is a bunker in front of it or I can leave it 30 yards short and.flop in. I find this course has made me.make more decisions than any other huh? when in the world does laying up on a par 4 make any sense ever?. especially from 160 yds away. If that is the beneficial approach to the hole the course should never be apart of the golf world. I played the shakespeare friday pins and it was not good at all sorry. I'm not even sure how anyone could get past hole #1 and say they are in for a fun tournament. I think there needs to be a guideline of some sort when it comes to toughening up courses. Theres nothing wrong with making birdies hard to get but punishing a player with a bogey because he rolled 1 foot past the hole which makes you roll down a hill and off the green is just flat out wrong. Make it so a player hits it 5+ feet past hes off the green is ok. I don't mean any disrespect to the creator of the course or the people involved in setting up the tournaments but please at least playtest it first. I have to say a disagree a little here as there is numerous courses around the world with nasty slopes close to pins, many that fall into run off areas. We have to have these slopes slightly closer because it is easier to hit the ball close on the game than in real life. Another thing is if you watch real life golf there is many holes when played in certain conditions that are near impossible on holding the green. Thats when the good miss strategy comes in(smart play). My game is up and down in these conditions but that is how golf should be. We should have a mixture of firm and softer condition throughout the year as it adds to the realism of real life golf and also you will have to have an allround game if you want to make it high in the rankings. |
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Post by Brighttail on Mar 25, 2015 19:51:46 GMT -5
You are correct, many courses have one or two holes like that. Usually they are signature or crucial holes, like Torrey Pines #18 which is the classic Tin Cup hole. Problem is when you have 4, 5, 7, 9 holes like that per round.
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Post by edi_vedder on Mar 25, 2015 19:55:50 GMT -5
Let me preface this by pointing out I havent complained about course choice and have mentioned I enjoy variety. In any tourney we all play the same course so it is fair play regardless of the difficulty. Generally I do agree with that. But before we do not play under the same wind conditions, this is unfortunately a wrong statement. With tougher course conditions - as we see them come lately at Bison or Shakespeare next week- I fear that "wind waiting" is going to arise even more, and that sucks extremely! So let's hope they'll get in a fix for that soon, so we all can assume that we really, really play under the same conditions through out the whole tournament! |
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