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Post by mcbogga on Mar 25, 2015 20:02:04 GMT -5
BT - good is good and bad is bad, has nothing to do with firmness or difficulty really... Only played the Sunday of the Shakespeare so far and it was not as well pinned as Bison in my opinion. Still quite good though. A couple of pins that were impossible to get to, but there were flat 20footers to be had so OK I think. Also a couple perched near slopes that would take the ball off the green. Also OK I think as it just puts demands on distance control.
Cannot speak for the other days but will try of course. Nothing wrong with a couple of holes with "funnels".
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Post by Doyley on Mar 25, 2015 20:36:40 GMT -5
Let me preface this by pointing out I havent complained about course choice and have mentioned I enjoy variety. In any tourney we all play the same course so it is fair play regardless of the difficulty. Generally I do agree with that. But before we do not play under the same wind conditions, this is unfortunately a wrong statement. With tougher course conditions - as we see them come lately at Bison or Shakespeare next week- I fear that "wind waiting" is going to arise even more, and that sucks extremely! So let's hope they'll get in a fix for that soon, so we all can assume that we really, really play under the same conditions through out the whole tournament! I found it had the opposite affect for me wind wise. The harder (difficulty and firmness) the course, the less I worry about the winds - figure everyone else is struggling no matter what the winds so in the end I find it may help me more than it normally would. |
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Post by edi_vedder on Mar 25, 2015 20:46:24 GMT -5
You might be right, Doyley!
Anyway... I'm happy when this whole wind problem becomes obsolete because HB fixed it in some way finally.
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Post by daddyjules on Mar 25, 2015 20:51:43 GMT -5
I find it may help me more than it normally would. its funny because a perfect example, i was practicing for bison round 3 earlier and hole #16 210yard par 3 wind straight in my face 16mph and on a calm day u aint holding this green but with this wind it was perfect to pull out my 5 wood and let the wind soften the bounce and hold the green. Moral of the story- the wind can be your friend  |
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Post by Brighttail on Mar 25, 2015 21:21:23 GMT -5
You might be right, Doyley! Anyway... I'm happy when this whole wind problem becomes obsolete because HB fixed it in some way finally. I was thinking that today when the wind's picked up to 10-14mph and I was looking at a driver, 3-wood to get to a par four Now to be fair the 3 wood was perfect for 219 with a 14mph head and have it roll within 5 feet. Just hit it hard and hope. |
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Post by Oblong on Mar 25, 2015 21:44:01 GMT -5
Let me preface this by pointing out I havent complained about course choice and have mentioned I enjoy variety. In any tourney we all play the same course so it is fair play regardless of the difficulty. Generally I do agree with that. But before we do not play under the same wind conditions, this is unfortunately a wrong statement. With tougher course conditions - as we see them come lately at Bison or Shakespeare next week- I fear that "wind waiting" is going to arise even more, and that sucks extremely! So let's hope they'll get in a fix for that soon, so we all can assume that we really, really play under the same conditions through out the whole tournament! Of course I am aware of that and have been pushing the "wind waiting is killing tournament play" charge over at HBS forums. I was careful in the statement you quoted to say we all play the same course rather than saying the same conditions. The more I play, the more I see the value of "wind waiting" so I am betting most, not all, of the top rounds are being shot in 1-7 mph conditions. So in that respect I think most are already playing the same...just a hunch. Edit: I also agree with others...I have shot some of my record low rounds on courses in higher winds. It CAN be your friend! |
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Post by Brighttail on Mar 25, 2015 22:51:33 GMT -5
In many cases, especially with hard/fast conditions.. a good head wind is nice to have to help stop the ball. I actually find that when there is 0-4mph I play worse than i do with 4-10mph.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2015 23:17:34 GMT -5
What they were really complaining about is their best is no where close to the elite, but what they said it the scores weren't realistic. So the courses were made tougher, the scores dropped and the cut line dropped. Wanna know what else dropped? The gap between those medium players and the elite. It "dropped" meaning it got larger and now the same people are complaining the courses are too hard cause they can't score a birdie. That is not the reality, after 2 rounds this week there is a tie on top of 5 players at -18 and the cut looks like -8, that's 10 shots. Before it was 25 and as high as 30 shots after 2 rounds.
That's the best solution IMHO, removing aids etc while it may lower the best scores, the gap will significantly increase. The goal should be first and foremost reducing the gap, followed by reducing the scores, the present firm and fast, while not perfect, is a step in the right and proper direction.
I do agree somewhat, that I think it requires more from the designer then just moving the sliders and moving some pins around. But for now it's a very good fix, because the work and time involved in designing a course that is tour worthy is significant.
I'm presently in the process of designing a firm and fast course, and it is presently exactly 7000 yards. It has been described in test runs as hard to birdie, but easy to par, and that is exactly what I'm looking for. I hope to make a very pretty but very fun to play firm and fast course.
I want firm and fast courses, I want courses where par is not a dropped shot. My present track is making hitting and staying on the green very much possible. When done my course, your 3 and 4 iron will only require a light brush off with the bottom of your shoe. I'm also confident, this one is going to go on tour as well, even though it's only 7000 yards.
Just to repeat because they are words of wisdom, The goal should be first and foremost reducing the gap, followed by reducing the scores, the present firm and fast, while not perfect, is a step in the right and proper direction, mostly because it is significantly reducing the gap, and cutting the best scores in half at the same time.
This is supposed to be the PGA Tour, why people would complain about playing in the toughest conditions on the highest tour is beyond me as well.
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Post by edi_vedder on Mar 26, 2015 0:27:36 GMT -5
I played The Champions' Club at Belmont yesterday.
Generally it was a very hard test of golf. It took a few holes until I was comfortable with the given conditions. I finished with a round of 69 (-1), and was quiet happy with that. I always felt like I'm fighting hard for Par, and a Birdie (there was only three of them) felt almost like I'm winnig a Major.
This is basically the way it should be in my opinion. There is also one thing I'd complain about:
The firmness of the greens is just crazy. You can't get anything to land and stop on the green from outside 150y. You have to land it somewhere in front of the green, and hope for the right bump. This was fine at Belmont, as the greens and its pin positions where designed to allow that. But for example @shakespeare next week, where and "old" course was adopted to fulfill the "new" requirements, this might become a (big) problem.
Just my 2 cents...
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Post by Doyley on Mar 26, 2015 0:33:15 GMT -5
The firmness of the greens is just crazy. You can't get anything to land and stop on the green from outside 150y. You have to land it somewhere in front of the green, and hope for the right bump. This was fine at Belmont, as the greens and its pin positions where designed to allow that. But for example @shakespeare next week, where and "old" course was adopted to fulfill the "new" requirements, this might become a (big) problem. Just my 2 cents... In today's twitch they mentioned that they are looking at changing the firmness dial to be dynamic instead it rounding to 1 of 3 settings. This will be a huge fix for our designers as they can dial in the firmness on the greens (which should be separate from the fairways at some point). We'll be able to have many different styles of courses once this becomes reality. Very excited for that fix - hopefully it sneaks into the May update. |
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Post by edi_vedder on Mar 26, 2015 0:45:41 GMT -5
The firmness of the greens is just crazy. You can't get anything to land and stop on the green from outside 150y. You have to land it somewhere in front of the green, and hope for the right bump. This was fine at Belmont, as the greens and its pin positions where designed to allow that. But for example @shakespeare next week, where and "old" course was adopted to fulfill the "new" requirements, this might become a (big) problem. Just my 2 cents... In today's twitch they mentioned that they are looking at changing the firmness dial to be dynamic instead it rounding to 1 of 3 settings. This will be a huge fix for our designers as they can dial in the firmness on the greens (which should be separate from the fairways at some point). We'll be able to have many different styles of courses once this becomes reality. Very excited for that fix - hopefully it sneaks into the May update. I knew I should have watched it... That's really good news, as this might solve a major problem we just started to run into. |
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Post by DaveC_87 on Mar 26, 2015 7:18:18 GMT -5
The real issues with scores is that all of these tournaments are played with all aids on. Play with all aids off and you will see more realistic scores and be able to play realistic courses. The more difficult courses will really shine, because putting will become even more difficult, just like real life. I am worried that all of these outstanding courses being designed are going to be designed with the intent of creating realistic scores in a setting with all aids on. In my opinion, that is the wrong approach. I am all about sim, so this is only my opinion.
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Post by steelereign on Mar 26, 2015 7:29:41 GMT -5
I think the right balance of tougher (not tricked out) courses and removal of aids is the answer.
In my mind, the difference between the best TGCT golfers and the rest of the herd should be not only ability but course management. Proper course management comes from practice.
You don't become a good golfer without tons of practice IRL. Why should it be any different in TGCT?
Those that have the time to practice tough courses and learn how to play them should be successful. Those with less time to practice will play in the lower tours.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2015 19:47:57 GMT -5
I think the right balance of tougher (not tricked out) courses and removal of aids is the answer. In my mind, the difference between the best TGCT golfers and the rest of the herd should be not only ability but course management. Proper course management comes from practice. You don't become a good golfer without tons of practice IRL. Why should it be any different in TGCT? Those that have the time to practice tough courses and learn how to play them should be successful. Those with less time to practice will play in the lower tours. steelereign, I'm in agreement with you here, but I have plenty of time. There are plenty of top players out there that don't have the time and most of them will be against your idea. The other complaint will be that it takes too much time to play a round which is very true. That is why you see some realistic tour sites popping up that play just the way you describe. And there is no saying you can't do both if you have the time. I foresee a mixed blend here at tgctours once HB gives more options like wind control and fixes any exploits to having any aids off. As a community and as a staff we should probably slow the process down a bit and not get to caught up in short term solutions. Many of the courses designers have put a lot of work into will most likely have to be modified if they are designed for a certain type of short term fix. I think any big gap in scores could be fixed by reducing the amount of the Euro and Pro tour cards if the field is on board with that. Find a fault line in the scores that will leave a field they are all comfortable with and let the Web A become more highly competitive and let sponsor exemptions take care of the rest. Again we need to ask Web A field how they would feel about this as the gap there will probably increase. I think that would actually be o.k. as it will make it more difficult to break through to the Pro tours and stay there. There may be something I'm missing here logistically so take the idea for what it's worth to those that run the tours and those that play in them. Maybe set up some kind of live feed where the field has the ability to discuss. These can be hard to manage if you don't set stringent ground rules for communication and the right of the staff members to mute out anyone that does not follow the guidelines that are set, but it might be worth it. -Mike  |
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Post by steelereign on Mar 26, 2015 22:22:30 GMT -5
I think the right balance of tougher (not tricked out) courses and removal of aids is the answer. In my mind, the difference between the best TGCT golfers and the rest of the herd should be not only ability but course management. Proper course management comes from practice. You don't become a good golfer without tons of practice IRL. Why should it be any different in TGCT? Those that have the time to practice tough courses and learn how to play them should be successful. Those with less time to practice will play in the lower tours. steelereign, I'm in agreement with you here, but I have plenty of time. There are plenty of top players out there that don't have the time and most of them will be against your idea. The other complaint will be that it takes too much time to play a round which is very true. That is why you see some realistic tour sites popping up that play just the way you describe. And there is no saying you can't do both if you have the time. I foresee a mixed blend here at tgctours once HB gives more options like wind control and fixes any exploits to having any aids off. As a community and as a staff we should probably slow the process down a bit and not get to caught up in short term solutions. Many of the courses designers have put a lot of work into will most likely have to be modified if they are designed for a certain type of short term fix. I think any big gap in scores could be fixed by reducing the amount of the Euro and Pro tour cards if the field is on board with that. Find a fault line in the scores that will leave a field they are all comfortable with and let the Web A become more highly competitive and let sponsor exemptions take care of the rest. Again we need to ask Web A field how they would feel about this as the gap there will probably increase. I think that would actually be o.k. as it will make it more difficult to break through to the Pro tours and stay there. There may be something I'm missing here logistically so take the idea for what it's worth to those that run the tours and those that play in them. Maybe set up some kind of live feed where the field has the ability to discuss. These can be hard to manage if you don't set stringent ground rules for communication and the right of the staff members to mute out anyone that does not follow the guidelines that are set, but it might be worth it. -Mike Let me be more clear - I don't want all aids removed. I would be fine with scout cam being removed, for example. I guess my point is this...I earned an exemption to a pro tourney. I chose to play Shakespeare on the Euro this coming week because I like the course so much. However, the designer/admin decided to toughen up the course for pro play. I know that I am so busy with work this week that I will have almost no time to learn these new set ups. Rather than b%&ing about it, I just have to realize that those whom are able to practice will outplay me this week. And deservedly so. You talk about lessening the "gap" and I agree that is good for the health of TGCT. I just think that for us middling players the only way to close that gap is to put in more practice than the next guy. Larry Bird was no superior athlete but he lived in the gym and took more jumpers in one evening than most practiced in a week. If I, or others, don't have that much time to practice then I belong in the Web or Champions tour and I'm okay with that. No amount of course or aids manipulation is going to close the gap between me and Doyley for example. |
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