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Post by xEB50x on Sept 11, 2020 23:00:54 GMT -5
How did I become the OP on this? Lol. I didn't start this thread fyi. lol!! I deleted due to not realizing this could get heated, but it seems to be a quality conversation.
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Post by Cecil Harvey on Sept 11, 2020 23:06:11 GMT -5
So push/pull was frowned upon and monitored on PGA last season as it was abusing the one way miss, but it's ok in this version to deliberately slow swing in the swing calibration to ensure a one way miss? Am I missing something here? It's not going to be checked against so I guess it's pointless even having this conversation. May as well change the comment of "it's your swing go perfect it" to "it's your swing go fast it". In TGC2019 it was proven/shown that the push/pull had minimal difference when one missed far outside the cone/channel versus just a little.
From my experience in PGA2k21 and a week of using the fast swing for most of my drives I get a variance of fasts from quite a bit fast to a "regular" fast, to a fast that is in the grey area, and then some perfects and even the occasional slow. All those different tempo results still give me a wide range of hooks from plenty to "normal" to slight to even double cross misses to the right (I play right handed). So, IMO, the penalty for missing is much more consistent with the tempo and how much of a fast you achieve.
It is more of a way to get that long bomber driver in my bag (295) versus the 270 or so driver I was using. So that is where the "exploit" (at least for me) comes into play.
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Post by xEB50x on Sept 11, 2020 23:14:31 GMT -5
If a person can time a fast or slow swing to a certain consistency then I would think that they also have the talent to hit the correct timing consistently too. No because you have a much bigger margin, so slightly fast vs very fast both have a good chance to still hit fairway, This was the point of the OP before I deleted it. It’s easier to stay in a fairway by hitting a slight fast or very fast vs attempting a perfect and getting a fast or slow and both shots result in a ball in the rough. So I understand why it’s used, just wondered if others felt it was an easy way to avoid the difficulties of master tempo? If so, that’s the point of the thread, is it an unfair advantage, or simply strategy?
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Post by cseanny on Sept 11, 2020 23:20:41 GMT -5
One way misses will always be more consistent, period. I'd wager only 2 out of 28 of the following swings would miss the fairway:
Let's get real, that's why IRL it's the preferred shot. The 2019 Push/Pull was a "swing plane" issue, therefore imo, it has no relevance in the discussion pertaining to the success or failure of intended fasts, which already have much more dispersion than the 2019 P/P.
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Post by nevadaballin on Sept 11, 2020 23:50:31 GMT -5
If a person can time a fast or slow swing to a certain consistency then I would think that they also have the talent to hit the correct timing consistently too. No because you have a much bigger margin, so slightly fast vs very fast both have a good chance to still hit fairway, Repeat bc the margins remain anyway you cut it: If a person can time a fast or slow swing to a certain consistency then I would think that they also have the talent to hit the correct timing consistently too.
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Post by welpin on Sept 12, 2020 0:06:52 GMT -5
No because you have a much bigger margin, so slightly fast vs very fast both have a good chance to still hit fairway, Repeat bc the margins remain anyway you cut it: If a person can time a fast or slow swing to a certain consistency then I would think that they also have the talent to hit the correct timing consistently too. it's ridiculous this conversation is even happening. the point isn't about margins, it's about trying to avoid a 2-way miss. it's sensible percentage play, end of story. a 20% error margin on tempo is the same whether you're perfect, fast or slow, but if you choose a default fast you're more likely to take one side's miss out of the equation. and obviously the other advantage of playing a fast is you get more distance, which everybody wants off the tee. or is trying to get more distance off the tee an "exploit" too because it helps?? Bryson hits more up on his driver than most which helps him get more distance, is that an exploit or is he just trying to get an advantage by playing in a slightly different way than some others? what a joke of a discussion this is!
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Post by donkeypuncherben on Sept 12, 2020 1:19:05 GMT -5
So push/pull was frowned upon and monitored on PGA last season as it was abusing the one way miss, but it's ok in this version to deliberately slow swing in the swing calibration to ensure a one way miss? Am I missing something here? It's not going to be checked against so I guess it's pointless even having this conversation. May as well change the comment of "it's your swing go perfect it" to "it's your swing go fast it". Do we even know if the api data tgctours gets is relative to the swing calibration? If they just get a time value for backswing and downswing but no info about where it is relative to the swing calibration then this would be basically impossible to police anyway.
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Post by donkeypuncherben on Sept 12, 2020 1:22:22 GMT -5
Repeat bc the margins remain anyway you cut it: If a person can time a fast or slow swing to a certain consistency then I would think that they also have the talent to hit the correct timing consistently too. it's ridiculous this conversation is even happening. the point isn't about margins, it's about trying to avoid a 2-way miss. it's sensible percentage play, end of story. a 20% error margin on tempo is the same whether you're perfect, fast or slow, but if you choose a default fast you're more likely to take one side's miss out of the equation. and obviously the other advantage of playing a fast is you get more distance, which everybody wants off the tee. or is trying to get more distance off the tee an "exploit" too because it helps?? Bryson hits more up on his driver than most which helps him get more distance, is that an exploit or is he just trying to get an advantage by playing in a slightly different way than some others? what a joke of a discussion this is! Maybe it is, but it is better to hear out these concerns now that to have it come up a year into the new game like the 2019 push pull debate did. We don’t want the owgr top then to mostly be fast players and then have it banned in a year. Better to know from the start
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Post by Cecil Harvey on Sept 12, 2020 1:25:56 GMT -5
How did I become the OP on this? Lol. I didn't start this thread fyi. lol!! I deleted due to not realizing this could get heated, but it seems to be a quality conversation.I agree. Am glad this thread is here as (so far) it seems to be a good discussion with valid points being made on both sides.
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Post by welpin on Sept 12, 2020 1:44:44 GMT -5
it's ridiculous this conversation is even happening. the point isn't about margins, it's about trying to avoid a 2-way miss. it's sensible percentage play, end of story. a 20% error margin on tempo is the same whether you're perfect, fast or slow, but if you choose a default fast you're more likely to take one side's miss out of the equation. and obviously the other advantage of playing a fast is you get more distance, which everybody wants off the tee. or is trying to get more distance off the tee an "exploit" too because it helps?? Bryson hits more up on his driver than most which helps him get more distance, is that an exploit or is he just trying to get an advantage by playing in a slightly different way than some others? what a joke of a discussion this is! Maybe it is, but it is better to hear out these concerns now that to have it come up a year into the new game like the 2019 push pull debate did. We don’t want the owgr top then to mostly be fast players and then have it banned in a year. Better to know from the start well knock yourselves out I guess. HB has given us a game that suits a wide range of playing styles, we can go with partial backswings, loft, angle of impact, perfect, fast and slow tempo, fade/draw shot shape (though it's a bit crap in the new game, I never touch it), basically enough options for all kinds of players depending on what style they like to play or discover they like to play. this should be celebrated, but some people insist that some playing styles are "exploits" when it's nothing of the sort. that's not raising "concerns" from where I'm sitting, that's moaning over a non-existent problem.
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Post by andrew1971 on Sept 12, 2020 2:13:11 GMT -5
In the real world, real players (Kenny Perry would be a good example) hit a certain shape of shot virtually all the time. Going back further, Bruce Lietzke would be another example (remember him on PGA Tour Golf in the 90s?) anyone?
Jack Nicklaus reckons that if you hit a ball arrow straight then it's a fluke, as people generally hit it one way or the other. IRL golf I used to fade everything. Nowadays, I draw everything. No idea why that changed, and I have no desire to "fix" it. I just aim right of the desired target by a bit. The right hand side of the hole (in theory) is out of the game.
In PGA2K21, I aim right as I expect a "Fast". I draw probably 90% of shots over 200 yards, and a hefty % of mid irons too. If I hit a "Slow" I'm in big trouble.
That's my strategy. The Golden Bear would approve, which is good enough for me.
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Post by oswinner on Sept 12, 2020 3:27:09 GMT -5
It's a risk reward. Having a repeatable swing is the key, and that takes practice and feel. Just because I know I hit fast, doesn't mean I'm going to do so each and every time. It means I could even hit it very fast - or very slow. Shot shaping can definitely help, but you still have to be 100% committed to the shot. I've owned the swing at this point, and it can be good or bad to me each go around. No way is it an exploit. I’ve took to playing legend swing and playing for fast/slows depending on what shot shape is needed. I hardly ever play for perfect just like the great Jack Nicklaus said. Game plays a dream.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2020 6:27:39 GMT -5
So push/pull was frowned upon and monitored on PGA last season as it was abusing the one way miss, but it's ok in this version to deliberately slow swing in the swing calibration to ensure a one way miss? Am I missing something here? It's not going to be checked against so I guess it's pointless even having this conversation. May as well change the comment of "it's your swing go perfect it" to "it's your swing go fast it". Do we even know if the api data tgctours gets is relative to the swing calibration? If they just get a time value for backswing and downswing but no info about where it is relative to the swing calibration then this would be basically impossible to police anyway. No idea, but it's not against the rules is what I heard.
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Post by dime5150 on Sept 12, 2020 6:56:16 GMT -5
I think the fix would be at q school surprise everybody with tgct being played on legendary
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Post by bubbsboy100. on Sept 12, 2020 7:20:29 GMT -5
Think perfect straights in the swing plane using certain well known aids out there should be only issue.
Have to play for fasts ALL THE TIME so be it. Not a thing I pereservered with as didn't enjoy it one bit.
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