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Post by zorbacles on Mar 6, 2020 6:13:46 GMT -5
To be honest chipping from the bunker is way more repeatable than it should be. I think this is why a lot of the sim type socieities have banned it, but I wouldn't stop doing it on tour unless someone implemented a policy
I agree Ben, and that's why I personally don't do it... Nothing against those that do...until I play their ghost we both play it out of the same bunker and I spin mine back down a slope... Sorry if it looked from my post like I might have agreed with you on that specific point, where I was agreeing with the rest. Easy to miss the detail. Wait, will a push cause a fade or will it just push right from the tee?
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Post by fadgewacker on Mar 6, 2020 6:15:03 GMT -5
I agree Ben, and that's why I personally don't do it... Nothing against those that do...until I play their ghost we both play it out of the same bunker and I spin mine back down a slope... Sorry if it looked from my post like I might have agreed with you on that specific point, where I was agreeing with the rest. Easy to miss the detail. Wait, will a push cause a fade or will it just push right from the tee? Just a push. A fade is controlled via the loft box or a slow DS. Aim ,sorry, swing straight and shape with the loft box or tempo, and you won't go far wrong.
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Post by zorbacles on Mar 6, 2020 6:17:18 GMT -5
Ok I thought it caused a fade and you could use it to shape a skit around an obstacle.
In that case no there is no need to do it on purpose..
I use the loft box and try to buy P/P
The only tempo I can hit on purpose is fast downswing.
I usually do fast back swing to but that is unintentional
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Post by unclevirt on Mar 6, 2020 7:41:49 GMT -5
I think what I’ll say Stephen, is that I, and I’ll speak solely for myself here initially, do not view this community / game as real golf, but most certainly, I have the same mutual respect for my competitors as I would on the course on a Saturday morning. I have the same recognition of core values associated with honesty and fair play that I do on the tee with my mates, or competitors from other clubs. I don’t think I’m extreme. I don’t think I’m unreasonable in my expectations and I don’t think my views vary much from a) the rest of the community, by and large, and b) the admin team, both here on PGA and over at TST - the guys that set up this fantastic site for us all to use. I’m fairly sure that over the years here, I’ve found that I fit well with the values expected. I’ve always said that people can easily use techniques that can cause issue, completely unwittingly. Flicky swings that were fine in previous issues of the game, create a very different problem in this game (I should know...) and some people had to change when it was clear it gave a massive advantage, they got API’d and we had a similar discussion to this, back then. Some people accepted that it was a glitch. They changed, as it was in line with admin views and understanding in the community between fellow competitors. Others, found a way to use it JUST enough to get by, as it had all of a sudden made them very good... whereas previously they were mediocre at best due to not being able to hit the ball straight... and they’re still doing that... week in, week out. Proudly streaming it for all to see... the best 😂 Different moral compass - where it’s clear what is expected. This is a very similar juncture we’re at with the latest glitch. The community, in large, apart from some of those that need to change, are aligned with the fair play ideals and understand this is a glitch. Admin have made their position very clear. They run the show. They set this place up with a vision in mind and feel the need to make their own lives harder policing this glitch. So we have wide community acceptance that glitches are bad and should not be tolerated. Admin align with this. I think even everybody now understands the mechanics at play, yet the bit that gets me, and this is where ethics come in, is that the same people are still flogging the dead horse, publicly (sometimes), privately (to a point) and then in the shadows... with likes on posts about how most everything should be allowed, to keep pace with the best at the game. Where a glitch in the swing is so widely recognised, yet people still use it and are patted on the back for doing so when it’s clear they’re using it to great effect (poor lambs)... again, for me, this doesn’t strike true that they are behaving ethically, fairly, in line with the community that they wish to be a part of, nor the wishes of the team that afford them the opportunity to take part here. All of that, is what brings me to question moral compass via the metric of “real golf values”. I’d never have to have this conversation on the tee or in the club house on a weekend. That’s the basis of my analogy. *apologies, in closing I was meant to say, that regardless of our differing views, I commend you and respect you for recognising the problem at hand and addressing it in your gameplay. Hey Fadge. Some good points here. You're right, you'd never have to have this discussion on a real golf course. Real golf is nice though in that the rules are set and not evolving and new methods of exploits probably aren't going to be found. In a broken game like this, it could happen any day.
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Post by donkeypuncherben on Mar 6, 2020 7:45:36 GMT -5
Not sure if serious, since the rules of golf were drastically changed like 2 years ago
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Post by fadgewacker on Mar 6, 2020 8:20:53 GMT -5
I think what I’ll say Stephen, is that I, and I’ll speak solely for myself here initially, do not view this community / game as real golf, but most certainly, I have the same mutual respect for my competitors as I would on the course on a Saturday morning. I have the same recognition of core values associated with honesty and fair play that I do on the tee with my mates, or competitors from other clubs. I don’t think I’m extreme. I don’t think I’m unreasonable in my expectations and I don’t think my views vary much from a) the rest of the community, by and large, and b) the admin team, both here on PGA and over at TST - the guys that set up this fantastic site for us all to use. I’m fairly sure that over the years here, I’ve found that I fit well with the values expected. I’ve always said that people can easily use techniques that can cause issue, completely unwittingly. Flicky swings that were fine in previous issues of the game, create a very different problem in this game (I should know...) and some people had to change when it was clear it gave a massive advantage, they got API’d and we had a similar discussion to this, back then. Some people accepted that it was a glitch. They changed, as it was in line with admin views and understanding in the community between fellow competitors. Others, found a way to use it JUST enough to get by, as it had all of a sudden made them very good... whereas previously they were mediocre at best due to not being able to hit the ball straight... and they’re still doing that... week in, week out. Proudly streaming it for all to see... the best 😂 Different moral compass - where it’s clear what is expected. This is a very similar juncture we’re at with the latest glitch. The community, in large, apart from some of those that need to change, are aligned with the fair play ideals and understand this is a glitch. Admin have made their position very clear. They run the show. They set this place up with a vision in mind and feel the need to make their own lives harder policing this glitch. So we have wide community acceptance that glitches are bad and should not be tolerated. Admin align with this. I think even everybody now understands the mechanics at play, yet the bit that gets me, and this is where ethics come in, is that the same people are still flogging the dead horse, publicly (sometimes), privately (to a point) and then in the shadows... with likes on posts about how most everything should be allowed, to keep pace with the best at the game. Where a glitch in the swing is so widely recognised, yet people still use it and are patted on the back for doing so when it’s clear they’re using it to great effect (poor lambs)... again, for me, this doesn’t strike true that they are behaving ethically, fairly, in line with the community that they wish to be a part of, nor the wishes of the team that afford them the opportunity to take part here. All of that, is what brings me to question moral compass via the metric of “real golf values”. I’d never have to have this conversation on the tee or in the club house on a weekend. That’s the basis of my analogy. *apologies, in closing I was meant to say, that regardless of our differing views, I commend you and respect you for recognising the problem at hand and addressing it in your gameplay. Hey Fadge. Some good points here. You're right, you'd never have to have this discussion on a real golf course. Real golf is nice though in that the rules are set and not evolving and new methods of exploits probably aren't going to be found. In a broken game like this, it could happen any day. I recognise your point regarding the stability of the boundaries of play (notwithstanding the changes in the last couple of years), but regardless of the rules, which people do still misinterpret, the point I'm labouring here is: When something is discovered as being potentially wrong, and then it's broadly agreed that it is indeed wrong, and then when the people that make the rules here clearly state it's wrong... people should accept it's wrong, whether they agree or not, and abide by the rules - not continue to do it until they get pulled. I have, over the years, pulled a number of people to a side in competitions (mainly old fellas), and just had a word as I'd realised they'd been breaking a rule... unknowingly... but if someone with a different outlook than I was to pull them up on it, it could ruin a great card... How they take free / penalty drops is usually the most common culprit. They've never done anything but thank me for letting them know, and one old lad even bought me a beer after he'd been and read up on it and found the error of his ways. They amended the way they played immediately. What we have at the moment around here, is almost universal acceptance and acknowledgement of a flaw - but a few people and a few of their buddies, some of those people who are doing very well at present, sticking their head in the sand, hiding in the background and b%&ing about how it's unfair, while continuing to, knowingly, use the exploit. That's where the moral compass is arse first vs the majority of the community. I think that, by and large, we have some common ground. Lets hope for some good competition, away from this drama moving forward.
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Post by unclevirt on Mar 6, 2020 8:55:02 GMT -5
Hey Fadge. Some good points here. You're right, you'd never have to have this discussion on a real golf course. Real golf is nice though in that the rules are set and not evolving and new methods of exploits probably aren't going to be found. In a broken game like this, it could happen any day. I recognise your point regarding the stability of the boundaries of play (notwithstanding the changes in the last couple of years), but regardless of the rules, which people do still misinterpret, the point I'm labouring here is: When something is discovered as being potentially wrong, and then it's broadly agreed that it is indeed wrong, and then when the people that make the rules here clearly state it's wrong... people should accept it's wrong, whether they agree or not, and abide by the rules - not continue to do it until they get pulled. I have, over the years, pulled a number of people to a side in competitions (mainly old fellas), and just had a word as I'd realised they'd been breaking a rule... unknowingly... but if someone with a different outlook than I was to pull them up on it, it could ruin a great card... How they take free / penalty drops is usually the most common culprit. They've never done anything but thank me for letting them know, and one old lad even bought me a beer after he'd been and read up on it and found the error of his ways. They amended the way they played immediately. What we have at the moment around here, is almost universal acceptance and acknowledgement of a flaw - but a few people and a few of their buddies, some of those people who are doing very well at present, sticking their head in the sand, hiding in the background and b%&ing about how it's unfair, while continuing to, knowingly, use the exploit. That's where the moral compass is arse first vs the majority of the community. I think that, by and large, we have some common ground. Lets hope for some good competition, away from this drama moving forward. Hopefully you aren't talking about Adam since he is working on hitting it straighter atm. You can confirm this with Doyley.
But there are a few who have no intentions of changing. You're right.
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Post by unclevirt on Mar 6, 2020 8:57:32 GMT -5
Not sure if serious, since the rules of golf were drastically changed like 2 years ago Yeah but most of those rules were in favor of letting things happen as opposed to taking away. If anything, it introduced exploits.
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Post by fadgewacker on Mar 6, 2020 9:06:15 GMT -5
I recognise your point regarding the stability of the boundaries of play (notwithstanding the changes in the last couple of years), but regardless of the rules, which people do still misinterpret, the point I'm labouring here is: When something is discovered as being potentially wrong, and then it's broadly agreed that it is indeed wrong, and then when the people that make the rules here clearly state it's wrong... people should accept it's wrong, whether they agree or not, and abide by the rules - not continue to do it until they get pulled. I have, over the years, pulled a number of people to a side in competitions (mainly old fellas), and just had a word as I'd realised they'd been breaking a rule... unknowingly... but if someone with a different outlook than I was to pull them up on it, it could ruin a great card... How they take free / penalty drops is usually the most common culprit. They've never done anything but thank me for letting them know, and one old lad even bought me a beer after he'd been and read up on it and found the error of his ways. They amended the way they played immediately. What we have at the moment around here, is almost universal acceptance and acknowledgement of a flaw - but a few people and a few of their buddies, some of those people who are doing very well at present, sticking their head in the sand, hiding in the background and b%&ing about how it's unfair, while continuing to, knowingly, use the exploit. That's where the moral compass is arse first vs the majority of the community. I think that, by and large, we have some common ground. Lets hope for some good competition, away from this drama moving forward. Hopefully you aren't talking about Adam since he is working on hitting it straighter atm. You can confirm this with Doyley. Not talking specifically about Adam at all, and I've no desire to check up on who does what with the admin team. It's mainly thanks to Adam that we now have additional rulings in the offing, so I've nothing but thanks to offer him for that. But now I think about it... it looks like he might have been able to get 2 PGA wins under his belt during this debate period, while playing the way he's always played (which may or may not fail API), so some people could potentially think he'd been able to use that advantage to shave a few shots off along the way, regardless of how well he'd played and putted. We'll never know. As I said, let's hope for some good clean fun going forward.
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Post by unclevirt on Mar 6, 2020 9:07:23 GMT -5
As I said, let's hope for some good clean fun going forward. This would make me the happiest person in the world.
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Post by unclevirt on Mar 6, 2020 15:39:29 GMT -5
Anyone that decides "I need to hit a fully lofted driver, but I can't go left, so I'll play that push shot thing so I can't go left, while playing the circle offset to make sure I go at the flag..." is cheating. Not just themselves, but the field. Same goes for a fully lofted anything... if you need to miss something on the left, cut it, or aim further right and play the damn game. Everyone hits a wide one, or two, or three... The API can only detect so much, and the admin team have deiced on a metric, a %'age, whereby they can identify anyone who doesn't appear to be conforming - for PGA only, as it's a damn minefield to go any lower on the tours. It can't police individual shots at certain moments and anyone's aim shouldn't be a art of any factor for consideration. Just so nobody accuses me of picking on the pushers / pullers exclusively - short swinging. Anyone intentionally and regularly doing this with an understanding of how it works is flat out cheating. Simple as that. Hey Fadge,
Hope you are having a good day. Just an observation here. When you play a cut or a draw (with the loft box) you lose some of channel just like when you loft or de-loft it (vertically). Are you talking about hitting a draw with the slow/fast downswing? (Please note, I'm being honest...not trolling). If you were going to cut it or draw it with the box you could miss it similarly to the way you can when vertically lofting/de-lofting.
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Post by fadgewacker on Mar 6, 2020 15:59:09 GMT -5
Anyone that decides "I need to hit a fully lofted driver, but I can't go left, so I'll play that push shot thing so I can't go left, while playing the circle offset to make sure I go at the flag..." is cheating. Not just themselves, but the field. Same goes for a fully lofted anything... if you need to miss something on the left, cut it, or aim further right and play the damn game. Everyone hits a wide one, or two, or three... The API can only detect so much, and the admin team have deiced on a metric, a %'age, whereby they can identify anyone who doesn't appear to be conforming - for PGA only, as it's a damn minefield to go any lower on the tours. It can't police individual shots at certain moments and anyone's aim shouldn't be a art of any factor for consideration. Just so nobody accuses me of picking on the pushers / pullers exclusively - short swinging. Anyone intentionally and regularly doing this with an understanding of how it works is flat out cheating. Simple as that. Hey Fadge,
Hope you are having a good day. Just an observation here. When you play a cut or a draw (with the loft box) you lose some of channel just like when you loft or de-loft it (vertically). Are you talking about hitting a draw with the slow/fast downswing? (Please note, I'm being honest...not trolling). If you were going to cut it or draw it with the box you could miss it similarly to the way you can when vertically lofting/de-lofting.
I primarily draw or fade the ball with the loft box. True, this does narrow the channel, and can make it more difficult to successfully execute what you visualise. The general shot shape you favour will usually override any slight variance in the swing line, but will obviously have an effect on the end product. I sometimes play draws with FDS, but only when I have distance to make up and am playing to an area with a filter. It’s not precise enough to go at a lot of pins we get. Never played a slow DS on purpose.
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Post by unclevirt on Mar 6, 2020 16:04:12 GMT -5
Hey Fadge,
Hope you are having a good day. Just an observation here. When you play a cut or a draw (with the loft box) you lose some of channel just like when you loft or de-loft it (vertically). Are you talking about hitting a draw with the slow/fast downswing? (Please note, I'm being honest...not trolling). If you were going to cut it or draw it with the box you could miss it similarly to the way you can when vertically lofting/de-lofting.
I primarily draw or fade the ball with the loft box. True, this does narrow the channel, and can make it more difficult to successfully execute what you visualise. The general shot shape you favour will usually override any slight variance in the swing line, but will obviously have an effect on the end product. I sometimes play draws with FDS, but only when I have distance to make up and am playing to an area with a filter. It’s not precise enough to go at a lot of pins we get. Never played a slow DS on purpose. I also haven't played a slow DS...can't master that one...with the Fast you can just mash it....
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Mr_brettly
Caddy
Posts: 44
TGCT Name: Brett Hudson
Tour: PGA
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Post by Mr_brettly on Mar 6, 2020 21:32:43 GMT -5
This such a good thread. Absolutely no drama or people going at each other’s throats. Bravo gentlemen.
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Post by jwtexan on Mar 10, 2020 19:37:11 GMT -5
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