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Post by unclevirt on Mar 5, 2020 21:34:20 GMT -5
Hey Fadge, I'm turning over a new leaf and trying to engage in civil debate. I feel personally attacked because I think I'm one of the people that you are talking about and that's okay. I played 4 years of collegiate golf and am still the biggest advocate for adhering to the rules set by the USGA. In this game, you can get really close to the top without ever learning a rule. You can't do that in real golf. You don't just go out and play by yourself and end up on the pga tour. In this game, you can push/pull/flick/slow backswing change your settings before you ever realize you are doing something wrong. You could play it for 100's or even 1000's of hours and be the best player in the world and not even know about the tours (wouldn't surprise me if the best player in the world isn't even on this site or playing in the tours). To be clear, I'm not saying all of that stuff should be legal on this site. What I am saying is that it can be hard for someone to change when they've spent a long time doing it the wrong way and some push back comes from that. I just don't think it's completely fair to compare someone's "game morals" to "actual golf morals". I feel a big difference is that some people view this as a real representation of golf (most of the people here) and some people just view it as a video game where you just play the best way you can without actually introducing cheating like scripts, turning off your y-axis sensitivity or even some other cheats where...if you played this guys ghost he'd hit his shots to like 30 feet away but then his ball would always somehow end up 6 inches from the cup...not sure how the last one was achieved. That's all. This has been a good thread Doyley. You really think it’s possible for someone to change their steam controller settings (eg diminish axis sensitivity) and believe they aren’t doing something against the spirit of fair competition? In a multi-platform single player golf game? Seems like a stretch to me and if true, is really sad. No, I don't feel that way at all. If you read the last paragraph you will see under the y-axis portion that I considered that cheating. It's okay that you didn't catch that. I am not a controller user so I don't know how those settings work. As far as mouse settings go, you can't expect someone to play with 10000 DPI and play well so there is some wiggle room for changing settings.
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Post by mrohde4 on Mar 5, 2020 21:57:38 GMT -5
You really think it’s possible for someone to change their steam controller settings (eg diminish axis sensitivity) and believe they aren’t doing something against the spirit of fair competition? In a multi-platform single player golf game? Seems like a stretch to me and if true, is really sad. No, I don't feel that way at all. If you read the last paragraph you will see under the y-axis portion that I considered that cheating. It's okay that you didn't catch that. I am not a controller user so I don't know how those settings work. As far as mouse settings go, you can't expect someone to play with 10000 DPI and play well so there is some wiggle room for changing settings. True true, but in the beginning you seemed to be defending players who might naively utilize certain advantages, including changing settings. I’m with you that a player could push or flick for many hours without realizing it’s a software flaw advantage, but the changing of settings seems like it should be a universal no no in competitive gaming. At least I hope.
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Post by CuseHokie on Mar 5, 2020 22:16:41 GMT -5
Hey Fadge, I'm turning over a new leaf and trying to engage in civil debate. I feel personally attacked because I think I'm one of the people that you are talking about and that's okay. I played 4 years of collegiate golf and am still the biggest advocate for adhering to the rules set by the USGA. In this game, you can get really close to the top without ever learning a rule. You can't do that in real golf. You don't just go out and play by yourself and end up on the pga tour. In this game, you can push/pull/flick/slow backswing change your settings before you ever realize you are doing something wrong. You could play it for 100's or even 1000's of hours and be the best player in the world and not even know about the tours (wouldn't surprise me if the best player in the world isn't even on this site or playing in the tours). To be clear, I'm not saying all of that stuff should be legal on this site. What I am saying is that it can be hard for someone to change when they've spent a long time doing it the wrong way and some push back comes from that. I just don't think it's completely fair to compare someone's "game morals" to "actual golf morals". I feel a big difference is that some people view this as a real representation of golf (most of the people here) and some people just view it as a video game where you just play the best way you can without actually introducing cheating like scripts, turning off your y-axis sensitivity or even some other cheats where...if you played this guys ghost he'd hit his shots to like 30 feet away but then his ball would always somehow end up 6 inches from the cup...not sure how the last one was achieved. That's all. This has been a good thread Doyley. I tried to be civil once with fadge. It was horrible. To be fair to Fadge, I have no clue what your position is these days. I sometimes think you just are here to keep threads alive.
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Post by theduke21 on Mar 5, 2020 22:19:25 GMT -5
Not that I matter as and the end of last season I got tired of the shitshow that is TGC19 and quit playing the tour events until they hopefully release a new game that will correct the supposed exploits and not result in having to police so much. I still play but just for my own enjoyment. This new exploit problem is new to me though. I haven’t been paying attention. I will say though that if I’m on a par 5 and am on the fringe distance wise to make the green in 2 over some obstacle or hazard I will aim slight right and purposely swing way off to the right and purposely get fast or VF down swing to get a few yards extra distance. If that is part of the exploit, well I wouldn’t change that if I was playing the Tour events. I’m happy TGCT is trying to compensate for some of the bad code inherent in this version of the game. But at the same time it might be fracturing the community. Totally the game makers fault. Not TGCT. Problem is there will likely be just as much of not more problems or different problems with the next game, causing folks to have to change playing style again to not be labeled an “exploiter”. Funny how in TGC1 nobody was lighting up the boards with exploit discussions. Yes there was outright cheating discussions. But if it wasn’t forbidden in the rules it was fair game. And there were tons of exploits in TGC1. So if you wanted to compete with the best, you too better learn what they are and master them. Heck there were many threads by those that had mastered tricks (now called exploits) helping less experienced players to use them. (Fully lofted irons, fully de-lofted chip ins and playing for chips just to name 2 of like 10 that were actually coding issues the make those shots artificially easy and helpful) I guess what I’m saying is I wish things were still that way. You want to be up on the PGA leaderboard, better master the short swing and the crooked swing “tricks” as well as learning to putt your butt off. It made for a much less fractured community and more threads discussing courses and play and less threads with the same folks calling out others for using unfair advantages. Not that the people calling out others are necessarily wrong but it does get old. I disagree with this quite a bit about TGC1. Take a look at the top 2 players on that game. Bradley always played a very straightforward game from everything anyone ever saw. Don't think he was really exploiting any of that stuff you mentioned. Ian Sweeney as well. I didn't watch Sweeney or play rounds with him as much but pretty sure he also played pretty normal golf. I also was top 5/10 for most of the game cycle and won a fair amount and never touched any of those exploits you named. In my opinion, those exploits just covered a bit of ground for the players who weren't good enough to compete and got them closer. The best players didn't need to chip. Now look at this version. Most of the players who play normally aren't even competing for wins. The top of the leaderboards lately have been completely filled with the players using this push/pull swing method. Huge difference.
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Post by theduke21 on Mar 5, 2020 22:24:09 GMT -5
I’ve read most of that nonsense and disagree, not going to get in an argument about it. The more you pull it or push it the more offline it will go which makes it harder to be precisely accurate. It’d be nice to be able to hit it straight every time but I haven’t had the luxury in doing that. Like i said, I will try to comply but if I can’t I will quit the tour. Or if I can ask to be demoted to euro since this is only in place for pga I will do that. Don't you see what you're saying here? "It'd be nice to hit it straight every time but I haven't had the luxury in doing that." Why do you belong in top tour if you're not able to hit it straight, which is fundamentally the point of the game? Also, you don't need to hit it straight every time. You just need to hit it somewhere in the cone. Then you're dealing with the difficulties everyone else is.
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Post by rcknfrewld on Mar 5, 2020 22:54:04 GMT -5
I tried to be civil once with fadge. It was horrible. To be fair to Fadge, I have no clue what your position is these days. I sometimes think you just are here to keep threads alive. My position on what? Are you trying to extrapolate something out of a rhetorical one-off sarcastic comment I made to playfully poke fun at fadge and me a little?
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Post by fadgewacker on Mar 6, 2020 2:34:23 GMT -5
Well said. Some of the responses to this whole situation over the last week make me question whether a lot of folk around here have ever played golf, properly, in their lives. Not that it is a prerequisite to being good at or even playing video game golf, but the morals on show here make me doubt they’ve ever truly been involved. If they have, then I’m damn glad they’re not in my 4 ball / card school / round. Some rather telling support in the thread for the post that sides with “anything should go”... 🙄 Hey Fadge, I'm turning over a new leaf and trying to engage in civil debate. I feel personally attacked because I think I'm one of the people that you are talking about and that's okay. I played 4 years of collegiate golf and am still the biggest advocate for adhering to the rules set by the USGA. In this game, you can get really close to the top without ever learning a rule. You can't do that in real golf. You don't just go out and play by yourself and end up on the pga tour. In this game, you can push/pull/flick/slow backswing change your settings before you ever realize you are doing something wrong. You could play it for 100's or even 1000's of hours and be the best player in the world and not even know about the tours (wouldn't surprise me if the best player in the world isn't even on this site or playing in the tours). To be clear, I'm not saying all of that stuff should be legal on this site. What I am saying is that it can be hard for someone to change when they've spent a long time doing it the wrong way and some push back comes from that. I just don't think it's completely fair to compare someone's "game morals" to "actual golf morals". I feel a big difference is that some people view this as a real representation of golf (most of the people here) and some people just view it as a video game where you just play the best way you can without actually introducing cheating like scripts, turning off your y-axis sensitivity or even some other cheats where...if you played this guys ghost he'd hit his shots to like 30 feet away but then his ball would always somehow end up 6 inches from the cup...not sure how the last one was achieved. That's all. This has been a good thread Doyley. I think what I’ll say Stephen, is that I, and I’ll speak solely for myself here initially, do not view this community / game as real golf, but most certainly, I have the same mutual respect for my competitors as I would on the course on a Saturday morning. I have the same recognition of core values associated with honesty and fair play that I do on the tee with my mates, or competitors from other clubs. I don’t think I’m extreme. I don’t think I’m unreasonable in my expectations and I don’t think my views vary much from a) the rest of the community, by and large, and b) the admin team, both here on PGA and over at TST - the guys that set up this fantastic site for us all to use. I’m fairly sure that over the years here, I’ve found that I fit well with the values expected. I’ve always said that people can easily use techniques that can cause issue, completely unwittingly. Flicky swings that were fine in previous issues of the game, create a very different problem in this game (I should know...) and some people had to change when it was clear it gave a massive advantage, they got API’d and we had a similar discussion to this, back then. Some people accepted that it was a glitch. They changed, as it was in line with admin views and understanding in the community between fellow competitors. Others, found a way to use it JUST enough to get by, as it had all of a sudden made them very good... whereas previously they were mediocre at best due to not being able to hit the ball straight... and they’re still doing that... week in, week out. Proudly streaming it for all to see... the best 😂 Different moral compass - where it’s clear what is expected. This is a very similar juncture we’re at with the latest glitch. The community, in large, apart from some of those that need to change, are aligned with the fair play ideals and understand this is a glitch. Admin have made their position very clear. They run the show. They set this place up with a vision in mind and feel the need to make their own lives harder policing this glitch for the integrity of the competition to be protected. So we have wide community acceptance that glitches are bad and should not be tolerated. Admin align with this. I think even everybody now understands the mechanics at play, yet the bit that gets me, and this is where ethics come in, is that the same people are still flogging the dead horse, publicly (sometimes), privately (to a point) and then in the shadows... with likes on posts about how most everything should be allowed, to keep pace with the best at the game. Where a glitch in the swing is so widely recognised, yet people still use it and are patted on the back for doing so when it’s clear they’re using it to great effect (poor lambs)... again, for me, this doesn’t strike true that they are behaving ethically, fairly, in line with the community that they wish to be a part of, nor the wishes of the team that afford them the opportunity to take part here. All of that, is what brings me to question moral compass via the metric of “real golf values”. I’d never have to have this conversation on the tee or in the club house on a weekend. That’s the basis of my analogy. *apologies, in closing I was meant to say, that regardless of our differing views, I commend you and respect you for recognising the problem at hand and addressing it in your gameplay.
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Post by BillySastard976 on Mar 6, 2020 4:09:13 GMT -5
An 'all exploits allowed tour' would at least keep most of those unwilling to seriously try to play the game properly happy, give them somewhere to play as they like. Nobody would take them seriously, but it is what it is.
I have a feeling that hardly anyone would play in it. People using exploits do it to try and win something meaningful to them and others, they need the kudos.
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Post by donkeypuncherben on Mar 6, 2020 4:33:06 GMT -5
In this game, you can get really close to the top without ever learning a rule. You can't do that in real golf. You don't just go out and play by yourself and end up on the pga tour. In this game, you can push/pull/flick/slow backswing change your settings before you ever realize you are doing something wrong. You could play it for 100's or even 1000's of hours and be the best player in the world and not even know about the tours (wouldn't surprise me if the best player in the world isn't even on this site or playing in the tours).
To be clear, I'm not saying all of that stuff should be legal on this site. What I am saying is that it can be hard for someone to change when they've spent a long time doing it the wrong way and some push back comes from that. I just don't think it's completely fair to compare someone's "game morals" to "actual golf morals". I feel a big difference is that some people view this as a real representation of golf (most of the people here) and some people just view it as a video game where you just play the best way you can without actually introducing cheating like scripts, turning off your y-axis sensitivity or even some other cheats where...if you played this guys ghost he'd hit his shots to like 30 feet away but then his ball would always somehow end up 6 inches from the cup...not sure how the last one was achieved.
That's all. This has been a good thread Doyley.
One of the things that has been strange to me in this whole debate though is people keep pointing back to the tutorials regarding how the game is intended to be played. When a new golf game comes out I always do whatever I can to skip the tutuorials or move through them as quickly as possible and instead just go to the driving range or simgle player mode and try things. Fading or hooking pitch and flop shots, delofting chips, adding loft to punch shots, half swings, intentional mishits, fast tempo, slow tempo, chipping from bunkers, putting from the rough, combining fast downswing with fade, anything I can think of.
I've never thought of this as looking for exploits or glitches, I'm not looking for 3rd party controllers or bugs in the code just trying to figure out what works in the game and might be useful. I assumed all the top players do this in some form or another. The game would be much more boring if I was just making a calculation of elevation, wind, and lie and hitting a normal swing each time. To me, always swinging straight up and down was like always playing for perfect/perect tempo or never adding fade or draw. I play perfect perfect and straight at my target most of the time but there were certain shotmaking scenarios where I found something else works better and just did that instead.
I have no problem adjusting to the new rules, but I also wonder if some other shots I make or learn in the next game that comes along will someday be labeled a glitch or exploit rather than shotmaking.
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Post by fadgewacker on Mar 6, 2020 4:47:47 GMT -5
In this game, you can get really close to the top without ever learning a rule. You can't do that in real golf. You don't just go out and play by yourself and end up on the pga tour. In this game, you can push/pull/flick/slow backswing change your settings before you ever realize you are doing something wrong. You could play it for 100's or even 1000's of hours and be the best player in the world and not even know about the tours (wouldn't surprise me if the best player in the world isn't even on this site or playing in the tours).
To be clear, I'm not saying all of that stuff should be legal on this site. What I am saying is that it can be hard for someone to change when they've spent a long time doing it the wrong way and some push back comes from that. I just don't think it's completely fair to compare someone's "game morals" to "actual golf morals". I feel a big difference is that some people view this as a real representation of golf (most of the people here) and some people just view it as a video game where you just play the best way you can without actually introducing cheating like scripts, turning off your y-axis sensitivity or even some other cheats where...if you played this guys ghost he'd hit his shots to like 30 feet away but then his ball would always somehow end up 6 inches from the cup...not sure how the last one was achieved.
That's all. This has been a good thread Doyley.
One of the things that has been strange to me in this whole debate though is people keep pointing back to the tutorials regarding how the game is intended to be played. When a new golf game comes out I always do whatever I can to skip the tutuorials or move through them as quickly as possible and instead just go to the driving range or simgle player mode and try things. Fading or hooking pitch and flop shots, delofting chips, adding loft to punch shots, half swings, intentional mishits, fast tempo, slow tempo, chipping from bunkers, putting from the rough, combining fast downswing with fade, anything I can think of.
I've never thought of this as looking for exploits or glitches, I'm not looking for 3rd party controllers or bugs in the code just trying to figure out what works in the game and might be useful. I assumed all the top players do this in some form or another. The game would be much more boring if I was just making a calculation of elevation, wind, and lie and hitting a normal swing each time. To me, always swinging straight up and down was like always playing for perfect/perect tempo or never adding fade or draw. I play perfect perfect and straight at my target most of the time but there were certain shotmaking scenarios where I found something else works better and just did that instead.
I have no problem adjusting to the new rules, but I also wonder if some other shots I make or learn in the next game that comes along will someday be labeled a glitch or exploit rather than shotmaking.
I regularly do just what you say and try to play different kinds of shots... creative shotmaking makes the game rewarding and interesting. Bang straight P/P is not for me... and I don’t think you can truly compete with the best paying that way alone, through sheer repetitiveness - all things being equal. I’ve always used the the swing “cone” as my baseline metric though. That needs to be good, to me. That’s what matters... now, if I play cut against the wind, if I hit a F/F and try to straighten it or even shape it to the necessary angle to suit, while making up that distance gap... that’s shot making. I’d hate to think I was unable to do any of that due to it being labelled a glitch. None of it is reliable, or repeatable though, in fact it’s very high risk and totally dependent on your judgement of the conditions and your perception of the shot you try to play. I think that’s the difference
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Post by AFCTUJacko on Mar 6, 2020 5:25:24 GMT -5
None of it is reliable, or repeatable though, in fact it’s very high risk and totally dependent on your judgement of the conditions and your perception of the shot you try to play. This. I love to try a Driver off the deck in this game. But it's a high tariff shot. I've probably only totally nailed it 2/3 times.
The push method takes away a lot of that risk.
Anyway, beyond whatever philosophical arguments we may have about what is or isn't an exploit, the admins of TGCT have decided this way of playing won't fly on the PGA anymore
It's just another rule we all have to follow, no different to not being allowed to chip on the green. People can either comply, or go play elsewhere. Simples
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Post by zorbacles on Mar 6, 2020 5:29:49 GMT -5
I think using a swing shape for a specific shot is not an issue. They only have issue with people that do it for every shot.
I use the loft box fade/draw to shake my shots as my swing line is far too unreliable to use that alone.
I'm only just now getting to the point where I'm getting close to a consistent straight shot but occasionally I will push our pull. The difference being that I don't aim left knowing that I'm going to push it
I'm not sure how much detail the API goes into but it would be a lot fairer if it took the person's aim into account aswell
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Post by donkeypuncherben on Mar 6, 2020 5:37:58 GMT -5
One of the things that has been strange to me in this whole debate though is people keep pointing back to the tutorials regarding how the game is intended to be played. When a new golf game comes out I always do whatever I can to skip the tutuorials or move through them as quickly as possible and instead just go to the driving range or simgle player mode and try things. Fading or hooking pitch and flop shots, delofting chips, adding loft to punch shots, half swings, intentional mishits, fast tempo, slow tempo, chipping from bunkers, putting from the rough, combining fast downswing with fade, anything I can think of.
I've never thought of this as looking for exploits or glitches, I'm not looking for 3rd party controllers or bugs in the code just trying to figure out what works in the game and might be useful. I assumed all the top players do this in some form or another. The game would be much more boring if I was just making a calculation of elevation, wind, and lie and hitting a normal swing each time. To me, always swinging straight up and down was like always playing for perfect/perect tempo or never adding fade or draw. I play perfect perfect and straight at my target most of the time but there were certain shotmaking scenarios where I found something else works better and just did that instead.
I have no problem adjusting to the new rules, but I also wonder if some other shots I make or learn in the next game that comes along will someday be labeled a glitch or exploit rather than shotmaking.
I regularly do just what you say and try to play different kinds of shots... creative shotmaking makes the game rewarding and interesting. Bang straight P/P is not for me... and I don’t think you can truly compete with the best paying that way alone, through sheer repetitiveness - all things being equal. I’ve always used the the swing “cone” as my baseline metric though. That needs to be good, to me. That’s what matters... now, if I play cut against the wind, if I hit a F/F and try to straighten it or even shape it to the necessary angle to suit, while making up that distance gap... that’s shot making. I’d hate to think I was unable to do any of that due to it being labelled a glitch. None of it is reliable, or repeatable though, in fact it’s very high risk and totally dependent on your judgement of the conditions and your perception of the shot you try to play. I think that’s the difference
To be honest chipping from the bunker is way more repeatable than it should be. I think this is why a lot of the sim type socieities have banned it, but I wouldn't stop doing it on tour unless someone implemented a policy
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Post by fadgewacker on Mar 6, 2020 6:03:20 GMT -5
I think using a swing shape for a specific shot is not an issue. They only have issue with people that do it for every shot. I use the loft box fade/draw to shake my shots as my swing line is far too unreliable to use that alone. I'm only just now getting to the point where I'm getting close to a consistent straight shot but occasionally I will push our pull. The difference being that I don't aim left knowing that I'm going to push it I'm not sure how much detail the API goes into but it would be a lot fairer if it took the person's aim into account aswell Ok, here's my take on this - I'm not speaking for anybody other than myself.Everyone involved here is clearly in understanding that the intentional push / pull is a glitch. Using it, intentionally, for any shot, is specifically and knowingly taking advantage of that glitch, and therefore knowingly cheating. At any level of the game, this is applicable, when people understand this broken element . Anyone that decides "I need to hit a fully lofted driver, but I can't go left, so I'll play that push shot thing so I can't go left, while playing the circle offset to make sure I go at the flag..." is cheating. Not just themselves, but the field. Same goes for a fully lofted anything... if you need to miss something on the left, cut it, or aim further right and play the damn game. Everyone hits a wide one, or two, or three... The API can only detect so much, and the admin team have deiced on a metric, a %'age, whereby they can identify anyone who doesn't appear to be conforming - for PGA only, as it's a damn minefield to go any lower on the tours. It can't police individual shots at certain moments and anyone's aim shouldn't be a art of any factor for consideration. Just so nobody accuses me of picking on the pushers / pullers exclusively - short swinging. Anyone intentionally and regularly doing this with an understanding of how it works is flat out cheating. Simple as that.
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Post by fadgewacker on Mar 6, 2020 6:08:12 GMT -5
I regularly do just what you say and try to play different kinds of shots... creative shotmaking makes the game rewarding and interesting. Bang straight P/P is not for me... and I don’t think you can truly compete with the best paying that way alone, through sheer repetitiveness - all things being equal. I’ve always used the the swing “cone” as my baseline metric though. That needs to be good, to me. That’s what matters... now, if I play cut against the wind, if I hit a F/F and try to straighten it or even shape it to the necessary angle to suit, while making up that distance gap... that’s shot making. I’d hate to think I was unable to do any of that due to it being labelled a glitch. None of it is reliable, or repeatable though, in fact it’s very high risk and totally dependent on your judgement of the conditions and your perception of the shot you try to play. I think that’s the difference
To be honest chipping from the bunker is way more repeatable than it should be. I think this is why a lot of the sim type socieities have banned it, but I wouldn't stop doing it on tour unless someone implemented a policy
I agree Ben, and that's why I personally don't do it... Nothing against those that do...until I play their ghost we both play it out of the same bunker and I spin mine back down a slope... Sorry if it looked from my post like I might have agreed with you on that specific point, where I was agreeing with the rest. Easy to miss the detail.
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