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Post by SweetTeeBag on Feb 25, 2020 7:31:09 GMT -5
fadgewacker , I am guessing someone is berning about their scores being removed from the leaderboard. 1st timer?
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Post by humanecentipede on Feb 25, 2020 7:32:10 GMT -5
I don’t see it so black and white.
The way I got to my current swing, I tried to swing as straight as I could but I would mostly miss left. This went on for 2 years. Then I started hedging my shots by aiming a little right. If I hit it straight straight, I miss right, and then there are a blend of pulls which put it closer to the pin, or even way left of the pin. My ideal line ends where the blue meets the top of the circle on the left side, maybe slightly outside, looks like a super shallow backwards C.
I tried for years to hit straight, can’t do it, my line is never smooth (maybe it’s a controller thing, I’ve never changed). My swing hasn’t even changed since then, I just play it differently. When does it become cheating, am I only allowed to play the odds of my swing sometimes? The swing is still the one I was trying to hit straight, I just changed where I was aiming...
I don’t even think I’m notably accurate for a PGA player, 60th for FIR and 43rd for GIR. My highest stats are putting and scrambling.
Playing a swing missing the cone very intentionally sounds like an exploit, but I’m playing a 5 yard pull. All I’m saying is I don’t think all pushers and pullers should be grouped in with people missing the cone intentionally by 30 degrees.
edit: to reiterate, I am trying to, and my pull swing usually, stays inside the cone
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Post by GW_Hope on Feb 25, 2020 7:34:26 GMT -5
I wouldn’t say you are a cheater. Most of us are saying the game is broke, wether you knew it or not. So if you hit just outside the cone the difference between that and say hitting to 1:00 o’clock gives basically the same result when it should be drastically more punishing. People can deny it but I tried for myself, it’s very very simple to test. It may be easier for me to replicate since I only use my thumb and it will naturally arc unless I consciously try to hit straight which is how I play normally.
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Post by donkeypuncherben on Feb 25, 2020 7:39:47 GMT -5
Yes according to the crowd here playing a pull outside the cone is an exploit I think "the crowd" here are well able to speak for themselves Ben... Regardless of your view / use of the tactic, please don't feed the pitch fork / hurt feelings movement that keeps trying to override what is essentially a discovery of a flaw in the swing, proven and presented with clear evidence.. If you want to speak for yourself then answer his question directly. But you don’t. You seem to prefer implying lack of morals to actually answering a direct question like that. Just because I have a different opinion doesn’t make my viewpoint less valid. If some people’s feelings are hurt or they feel victim of a witch hunt, it is not due to my support of an alternative viewpoint but due to the multiple people calling a pretty widespread form of playing the game an exploit. full stop. Don’t blame me for sympathizing instead of ganging up and piling on
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Post by humanecentipede on Feb 25, 2020 8:12:17 GMT -5
I wouldn’t say you are a cheater. Most of us are saying the game is broke, wether you knew it or not. So if you hit just outside the cone the difference between that and say hitting to 1:00 o’clock gives basically the same result when it should be drastically more punishing. People can deny it but I tried for myself, it’s very very simple to test. It may be easier for me to replicate since I only use my thumb and it will naturally arc unless I consciously try to hit straight which is how I play normally. Yeah I guess I just didn’t know that I didn’t know, I still seem to miss bad both ways lol. I’ll try to pay more attention to my line next time I play and see what’s going on. I will say that when I started playing my draw I did start scoring better, I credited it to strategy and keeping myself out of trouble rather than to an exploit, maybe it was something more.
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Post by GW_Hope on Feb 25, 2020 8:18:21 GMT -5
I wouldn’t say you are a cheater. Most of us are saying the game is broke, wether you knew it or not. So if you hit just outside the cone the difference between that and say hitting to 1:00 o’clock gives basically the same result when it should be drastically more punishing. People can deny it but I tried for myself, it’s very very simple to test. It may be easier for me to replicate since I only use my thumb and it will naturally arc unless I consciously try to hit straight which is how I play normally. Yeah I guess I just didn’t know that I didn’t know, I still seem to miss bad both ways lol. I’ll try to pay more attention to my line next time I play and see what’s going on. I will say that when I started playing my draw I did start scoring better, I credited it to strategy and keeping myself out of trouble rather than to an exploit, maybe it was something more. So I knew of this for almost a year and never put much thought into it. I had no idea HB could screw it up as bad as it is.
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Post by B.Smooth13 on Feb 25, 2020 8:20:20 GMT -5
Finding some very scary things on this game this evening... This is from my "gaming twitter" Looks familiar. I hit that 150 board on my 1st try with this push thing, and then again on my 3rd, 4th, and 5th tries. Pretty remarkable, really...
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Post by Cecil Harvey on Feb 25, 2020 8:33:24 GMT -5
Was using TheTGCTDrunk and decided not to be cryptic about my username. Anywho...
-6 and -11. A MC and nothing to see here. Always enjoy Rod's RCRs! Glad it came up on the schedule.
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Post by SweetTeeBag on Feb 25, 2020 8:41:16 GMT -5
Was using TheTGCTDrunk and decided not to be cryptic about my username. Anywho... -6 and -11. A MC and nothing to see here. Always enjoy Rod's RCRs! Glad it came up on the schedule. Welcome back Bob!
You might have to fight off booze2407 for the drunk title here
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Post by fadgewacker on Feb 25, 2020 8:54:05 GMT -5
I think "the crowd" here are well able to speak for themselves Ben... Regardless of your view / use of the tactic, please don't feed the pitch fork / hurt feelings movement that keeps trying to override what is essentially a discovery of a flaw in the swing, proven and presented with clear evidence.. If you want to speak for yourself then answer his question directly. But you don’t. You seem to prefer implying lack of morals to actually answering a direct question like that. Just because I have a different opinion doesn’t make my viewpoint less valid. If some people’s feelings are hurt or they feel victim of a witch hunt, it is not due to my support of an alternative viewpoint but due to the multiple people calling a pretty widespread form of playing the game an exploit. full stop. Don’t blame me for sympathizing instead of ganging up and piling on Sometimes I really do wonder if we're even on the same planet, never mind talking the same language... I really don't see where I'm implying lack of morals, the only suggestion of that is from you. As for not answering Chris' question directly, I actually thought I had ... Seems I mustn't have posted the response I typed on my phone... I'll get to it later this afternoon and re-write it. Nobody is blaming you for anything, not least me... That's quite evident from my post. Ganging up and piling on? Please, don't be so dramatic... It's not helpful. The following applies to you and I, but is also a broad representation of the temperature of members involved in the debate, I feel. I'd welcome your feedback:- We agree the swing is broken in relation to the push? Right?
- We don't agree on whether the use of that broken mechanic is giving people an unfair advantage, despite it just being proven? Correct?
- In direct relation to Chris' question, I don't believe it's understood 100% what the breaking point of the push / pull swing actually is, so it's not 100% clear at what point benefit is gained.
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Post by theduke21 on Feb 25, 2020 9:07:05 GMT -5
I don’t see it so black and white. The way I got to my current swing, I tried to swing as straight as I could but I would mostly miss left. This went on for 2 years. Then I started hedging my shots by aiming a little right. If I hit it straight straight, I miss right, and then there are a blend of pulls which put it closer to the pin, or even way left of the pin. My ideal line ends where the blue meets the top of the circle on the left side, maybe slightly outside, looks like a super shallow backwards C. I tried for years to hit straight, can’t do it, my line is never smooth (maybe it’s a controller thing, I’ve never changed). My swing hasn’t even changed since then, I just play it differently. When does it become cheating, am I only allowed to play the odds of my swing sometimes? The swing is still the one I was trying to hit straight, I just changed where I was aiming... I don’t even think I’m notably accurate for a PGA player, 60th for FIR and 43rd for GIR. My highest stats are putting and scrambling. Playing a swing missing the cone very intentionally sounds like an exploit, but I’m playing a 5 yard pull. All I’m saying is I don’t think all pushers and pullers should be grouped in with people missing the cone intentionally by 30 degrees. edit: to reiterate, I am trying to, and my pull swing usually, stays inside the cone I personally don’t see this as cheating or using an exploit at all. From the sound of it, your swing is just consistently a little winky and you play for it. Hard to know without seeing it and seeing you play, but I imagine it’s just a bit like tons of TGC players that have had to play for a bit of a pull or push. I had a controller a year or two ago that had a nice little sharp push at the end sometimes and I had to play for it. The issue at hand here is a *potentially* deliberate push swing that is essentially on the right edge of the cone or even outside of it all the way back and forward and exploits a huge issue in the swing mechanic. Maybe you’re benefitting from that mechanic, maybe you’re not, hard to know again without seeing it. But I personally think there’s a big difference in someone who has a bit of a natural pull or push at the top and someone who is using the gold standard of this push swing in the examples I was shown. I can’t personally believe that anybody would naturally make the swing of the golf standard push swing that I saw examples of. And I especially believe that to be true after testing it out myself. It was very ridiculous feeling despite how good the results were. TL;DR: There’s a difference between this push swing and someone who just has a bit of a wonky push or pull on their follow through. The wonky follow through may be more rewarding than it should be because of bad game mechanics, but it’s pretty hard to fault anyone who is trying to swing straight and normal and just accounting for that small push or pull they have.
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Post by kendawgallday on Feb 25, 2020 9:43:23 GMT -5
I guess ill get my scores pulled eventually cuz I play a push cuz that's just how I swing I've tried forever to swing all the way straight and can't...if I get them pulled I get them pulled and I'm not one to complain much on here but in my opinion all this is pretty stupid...how in the world is it an advantage to play a push or pull cuz that's how u swing compared to someone who hits it dead straight? If u play a push or pull u have to factor that in plus the wind plus the green slopes as if u hit it straight u don't have to worry about it ball going farther left or right...so I'm just not getting how it's an advantage to have to play farther left or right than the person who hits it straight does? Where's the advantage??? I have made 8 of 16 cuts since I've been up here playing the exact same way and never had a score pulled so I think if I have any type of advantage over anyone I would be making more than 50% of the cuts...this stuff becomes a joke after a while..i get the flick swing part but will never understand the advantage of having to play a pull or push cuz that's how u swing...it makes no sense whatsoever...the dead straight hitting players should have the advantage not the other way around.
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Post by kendawgallday on Feb 25, 2020 9:46:15 GMT -5
Btw I shot -8 and -10 so another missed cut so I'll now be 8 of 17...sorry for the advantage i have tho...this stuff makes me laugh
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Post by titan30003 on Feb 25, 2020 9:47:12 GMT -5
I guess ill get my scores pulled eventually cuz I play a push cuz that's just how I swing I've tried forever to swing all the way straight and can't...if I get them pulled I get them pulled and I'm not one to complain much on here but in my opinion all this is pretty stupid...how in the world is it an advantage to play a push or pull cuz that's how u swing compared to someone who hits it dead straight? If u play a push or pull u have to factor that in plus the wind plus the green slopes as if u hit it straight u don't have to worry about it ball going farther left or right...so I'm just not getting how it's an advantage to have to play farther left or right than the person who hits it straight does? Where's the advantage??? I have made 8 of 16 cuts since I've been up here playing the exact same way and never had a score pulled so I think if I have any type of advantage over anyone I would be making more than 50% of the cuts...this stuff becomes a joke after a while..i get the flick swing part but will never understand the advantage of having to play a pull or push cuz that's how u swing...it makes no sense whatsoever...the dead straight hitting players should have the advantage not the other way around. Many people have thought the same as you, but then have read this thread tgctours.proboards.com/thread/22109/push-pull-swing-line-debateand have come away seeing why it's an advantage. You should read that thread.
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Post by B.Smooth13 on Feb 25, 2020 10:15:24 GMT -5
Here’s the crux of it from my perspective:
Is it an advantage? Yes
Is it purposeful? No in some cases, possibly/could be yes in others.
If you’ve always played this way, try to imagine seeing it from the perspective of those of us who have never tried it and just discovered how incredibly easy it is to get nearly dead on accuracy at such a consistent clip. It’s very easy to see how it COULD be purposeful, which I think is something that would be especially evident to those who already play this way because they’ve realized the benefit. To reiterate, I am not saying every person who does this is purposefully gaining an advantage, but it’s absolutely possible to do if someone chooses - that’s the grey area.
I’d encourage those using the method without doing so purposefully to not get overly defensive. If you’re not purposefully taking advantage of something, and you have a clean conscience about it, then there’s no need to defend yourself as far as I’m concerned - because the discussion about gaining an advantage on purpose to exploit an easier way of playing is not something that involves those who are not doing it on purpose.
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