|
|
Post by staypuft39 on Feb 18, 2020 10:27:32 GMT -5
Man, being a judge sucks, especially in this contest. Can't see any reason why someone would be one at this point, honestly. Not only is it tough to live up to the players standards, but even if you do deliver great notes and in-depth analysis, it can all be undone if the other judge disagrees with you.
Building the perfect judge:
- Architecture knowledge
- Good game player
- Eye for detail
- Free time to play dozens of rounds
- Free time to do detailed write-ups
From my experience in judging/contest entry, most only have ONE or maybe TWO of these qualities, so it's an uphill battle right from the get-go (at no fault of the judges, who are helpful people).
At the end of the day, us experienced designers did this to ourselves. With everyone wanting to design and nobody wanting to judge, there is zero consistency and zero reliability. It's like a bunch of William Hungs judging a bunch of Paula Abduls (diva usage is intentional).
The question now is, what can be done about it? I mean, unless somebody contacts Tom Doak to do it I know there are some that won't be satisfied, but maybe we could come up with a solid panel of judges for each yearly contest? A core of 3 experienced designers with a few others brought in yearly.
But even then, will we want to do it? (No)
Will we have time to play 20-some courses and make detailed notes? (No)
Will people still complain? (Yes)
Or maybe we just do nothing and keep soldiering on, as this is always some good entertainment at least.
|
|
|
|
Post by Hootbleet on Feb 18, 2020 10:51:02 GMT -5
I get that. And we should all be grateful that the judges were willing to sacrifice their own time and go through all the courses. I’m not upset at any result. People will always have different preferences. I had a judge who didn’t like playing on a course with waste bunkers. Ok. That’s a loss for me right off the bat. Whatever. What I think could have been improved on is the feedback. I was told my course was technically executed very well by one and then told there were several major technical flaws throughout 🤣. Ok, I just spent a whole lot of time building this thing, please take the 10 minutes to go in depth and just give me a few examples, would love to hear it. Rookie judges in the top competition was a recipe for disaster from the start. From experience, I can tell you that assembling judging panels for these things is becoming increasingly difficult and I'm not sure how sustainable the current model is. As such, it's important to bring new people into the process, especially if they're enthusiastic! Having said that, I plan on starting a discussion for possible new policies once we've all had a little time to decompress. I no longer partake in these design contests, but still take an interest from afar. I look forward to your new policies discussion Dan and have one or two suggestions to aid future judging |
|
|
|
Post by Hootbleet on Feb 18, 2020 10:55:22 GMT -5
Man, being a judge sucks, especially in this contest. Can't see any reason why someone would be one at this point, honestly. Not only is it tough to live up to the players standards, but even if you do deliver great notes and in-depth analysis, it can all be undone if the other judge disagrees with you. Building the perfect judge: - Architecture knowledge - Good game player - Eye for detail - Free time to play dozens of rounds - Free time to do detailed write-ups From my experience in judging/contest entry, most only have ONE or maybe TWO of these qualities, so it's an uphill battle right from the get-go (at no fault of the judges, who are helpful people). At the end of the day, us experienced designers did this to ourselves. With everyone wanting to design and nobody wanting to judge, there is zero consistency and zero reliability. It's like a bunch of William Hungs judging a bunch of Paula Abduls (diva usage is intentional). The question now is, what can be done about it? I mean, unless somebody contacts Tom Doak to do it I know there are some that won't be satisfied, but maybe we could come up with a solid panel of judges for each yearly contest? A core of 3 experienced designers with a few others brought in yearly. But even then, will we want to do it? (No) Will we have time to play 20-some courses and make detailed notes? (No) Will people still complain? (Yes) Or maybe we just do nothing and keep soldiering on, as this is always some good entertainment at least. Could it also be, there are too many contests/entrants now? |
|
|
|
Post by warhawk137 on Feb 18, 2020 11:03:45 GMT -5
Hopefully with two contests running in parallel some people from each will be able to judge the other. I volunteered to judge the Major contest while I'm participating in the CC contest, will see if I'm needed there.
|
|
|
|
Post by lessthanbread on Feb 18, 2020 11:26:09 GMT -5
It would be really difficult to assemble the absolute best panel of judges you could find for these contests because the best possible judges are the ones competing in the contest. I'm not sure there is a perfect solution. One thing that came to mind is to have someone who has been in and judged many contests before with an excellent track record of design and community involvement make a judging tutorial video. The write ups and guide lines are great but I think it would help the inexperienced judges to actually see what they're supposed to be looking for and provide them with examples of good reviews vs bad reviews
|
|
|
|
Post by staypuft39 on Feb 18, 2020 11:38:55 GMT -5
Could it also be, there are too many contests/entrants now? If you think this set of judges would have made different decisions if they had fewer courses to judge, then sure. I personally don't think so, and so I believe there has to be a different spin on judging moving forward. Also worth considering, do we really care for this "World Cup" format? Could a change to a non-head-to-head format produce more consistent results? Is it worth the novelty of the format? I definitely do NOT like the World Cup thing, and would prefer a different take...maybe like "Survivor"? Judges vote each day/week to eliminate the course they like LEAST and the course with the most votes is eliminated. Start with 2 groups of 10 with 2 unique sets of judges, then they merge when 10 courses remain. |
|
|
|
Post by b101 on Feb 18, 2020 11:42:30 GMT -5
Could it also be, there are too many contests/entrants now? If you think this set of judges would have made different decisions if they had fewer courses to judge, then sure. I personally don't think so, and so I believe there has to be a different spin on judging moving forward. Also worth considering, do we really care for this "World Cup" format? Could a change to a non-head-to-head format produce more consistent results? Is it worth the novelty of the format? I definitely do NOT like the World Cup thing, and would prefer a different take...maybe like "Survivor"? Judges vote each day/week to eliminate the course they like LEAST and the course with the most votes is eliminated. Start with 2 groups of 10 with 2 unique sets of judges, then they merge when 10 courses remain. I like this. I do not subscribe to the school of thought that randomness and upsets = entertainment and this format in groups is always going to give that. Not when we spend three months on a course. It deserves better than that. Or, just all come join Dream Team  |
|
|
|
Post by jwtexan on Feb 18, 2020 11:47:40 GMT -5
 That sounds legit! |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2020 11:47:48 GMT -5
It would be really difficult to assemble the absolute best panel of judges you could find for these contests because the best possible judges are the ones competing in the contest. I beg to differ. As an outsider looking in on this thing - I do not feel any pull to volunteer myself - quite the opposite. If I where to have any fictional design judged - I would not have it judged by designers but by players (better to have players that is not designers judge). The feeling I get is: "we want to judge ourselves so we get the result that we want". |
|
|
|
Post by catcherman22 on Feb 18, 2020 12:03:25 GMT -5
I like the WCOD format.. I just think the way we decide each matchup needs to be changed on not reliant on just two judges.... but of course that makes more work for the judges.
|
|
|
|
Post by 15eicheltower9 on Feb 18, 2020 12:24:31 GMT -5
ALL OF THIS☝️
|
|
reebdoog
TGCT Design Competition Directors
Posts: 2,742 
TGCT Name: Brian Jeffords
Tour: CC-Pro
|
Post by reebdoog on Feb 18, 2020 12:29:26 GMT -5
I like the WCOD format.. I just think the way we decide each matchup needs to be changed on not reliant on just two judges.... but of course that makes more work for the judges. Totally agree. *shrug* Decided not to change it since folks enjoyed it despite the issues the last two years. Hindsight eh? |
|
|
|
Post by b101 on Feb 18, 2020 12:41:40 GMT -5
Do you mind me asking how many judge each match from here on in? I guess with half of the field gone, we could do four per matchup?
|
|
|
|
Post by lessthanbread on Feb 18, 2020 12:46:06 GMT -5
It would be really difficult to assemble the absolute best panel of judges you could find for these contests because the best possible judges are the ones competing in the contest. I beg to differ. As an outsider looking in on this thing - I do not feel any pull to volunteer myself - quite the opposite. If I where to have any fictional design judged - I would not have it judged by designers but by players (better to have players that is not designers judge). The feeling I get is: "we want to judge ourselves so we get the result that we want". Sure, as long as those players actually have knowledge of course design and how it is executed using the designer. A huge part of judging anything is knowing what each contestant was trying to accomplish and I feel that aspect would be lacking in a player only panel because they would be basing their judgments solely on their personal tastes due to their lack of objective knowledge of the course designing tool. But I could be wrong and it could be an interesting perspective on contest judging. Not sure what you mean by "want to judge ourselves" since judges don't complete in the contests they're judging though |
|
|
|
Post by Davidius74 on Feb 18, 2020 12:58:51 GMT -5
Do you mind me asking how many judge each match from here on in? I guess with half of the field gone, we could do four per matchup? The round of 16 is going to be 3 judges per matchup and each judge doing 2 matchups. Not sure about round after that but semi finals is 2 lots of 6 I believe and then the final is all the judges deciding on the winner. Justin can confirm all this though |
|
