|
|
Post by zzfr33b1rdzz on Feb 18, 2020 13:07:32 GMT -5
Maybe as designers - we need to provide the judges with what our vision was for the course - this may help to alleviate some of the comments where 'odd design choice' was noted - if the judges have a better understanding of the design 'intent' - it could help to explain why those 'odd' things are there.
Example:
My course - Mulligan Quarry - I have a large pond/lake in the bottom section of the quarry. I had one person who played the course comment on the transition from land to lake was a bit abrupt. This was my intent -- as an old Quarry typically has areas where large chunks of land was excavated away. My intent here was to depict one of these areas as having been filled up with rain drainage over the years. After explaining this, the person understood why it was that way and agreed it fit the concept of the design..
Not sure if this will make any sort of difference in how courses are judged - but a large part of it does come down to personal preference, and that isn't something that can really be changed.
We all like what we like, and don't like what we don't like...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2020 13:08:01 GMT -5
I beg to differ. As an outsider looking in on this thing - I do not feel any pull to volunteer myself - quite the opposite. If I where to have any fictional design judged - I would not have it judged by designers but by players (better to have players that is not designers judge). The feeling I get is: "we want to judge ourselves so we get the result that we want". Sure, as long as those players actually have knowledge of course design and how it is executed using the designer. A huge part of judging anything is knowing what each contestant was trying to accomplish and I feel that aspect would be lacking in a player only panel because they would be basing their judgments solely on their personal tastes due to their lack of objective knowledge of the course designing tool. But I could be wrong and it could be an interesting perspective on contest judging. Not sure what you mean by "want to judge ourselves" since judges don't complete in the contests they're judging though Why should the players have any knowledge of course design or using the designer? I simply do not agree with you. In my humble opinion, the criteria should be to not be a designer and no knowledge of the designer at all. Then you get judgement on how well it is from a players perspective - not a designers perspective. Knowing how it is done in the designer is totaly irrelevant in judging how well a course plays - or how bad it plays for that matter. Personal taste - yes, we all have personal taste. That is true regardless of who judges. You have to live with that, and you will never have an infinite number of judges to balance out the personal taste to a perfect degree. What I mean, is that it seems to me that the design-community will like to judge themselves so they can get the result that they think is correct, rather than leave it in the hands of players who is not designers. As you said; you think the best judges are the best designers.. So you have contest for designers, judged by fellow designers.. and most likely it is the same designers that will judge in one contest and participate in the next etc. |
|
|
|
Post by jwtexan on Feb 18, 2020 13:15:31 GMT -5
You know that some of the best designers are also really good players too, right? It is not like you choose one side of the game to play or the other.
|
|
|
|
Post by staypuft39 on Feb 18, 2020 13:16:50 GMT -5
Sure, as long as those players actually have knowledge of course design and how it is executed using the designer. A huge part of judging anything is knowing what each contestant was trying to accomplish and I feel that aspect would be lacking in a player only panel because they would be basing their judgments solely on their personal tastes due to their lack of objective knowledge of the course designing tool. But I could be wrong and it could be an interesting perspective on contest judging. Not sure what you mean by "want to judge ourselves" since judges don't complete in the contests they're judging though Why should the players have any knowledge of course design or using the designer? I simply do not agree with you. In my humble opinion, the criteria should be to not be a designer and no knowledge of the designer at all. Then you get judgement on how well it is from a players perspective - not a designers perspective. Knowing how it is done in the designer is totaly irrelevant in judging how well a course plays - or how bad it plays for that matter. Personal taste - yes, we all have personal taste. That is true regardless of who judges. You have to live with that, and you will never have an infinite number of judges to balance out the personal taste to a perfect degree. What I mean, is that it seems to me that the design-community will like to judge themselves so they can get the result that they think is correct, rather than leave it in the hands of players who is not designers. As you said; you think the best judges are the best designers.. So you have contest for designers, judged by fellow designers.. and most likely it is the same designers that will judge in one contest and participate in the next etc. Your method will find the most popular course, but not the best course. In my opinion it's a lot like the world of food/chefs. The public will have their say as to what restaurant makes money and gets visitors...but in the end you can only trust other chefs/food experts to decide which has the best food. |
|
|
|
Post by ryanmcconnell on Feb 18, 2020 13:18:11 GMT -5
Eh I think it’s important to have both designers and players as judges. Ideally, you’d want to be able to have a conversation when people have different thoughts. This is the only way people may learn and grow.
|
|
|
|
Post by cephyn on Feb 18, 2020 13:19:53 GMT -5
I tried to be very objective when I was a judge last year. I read Anatomy of a Golf Course to become a better designer and better judge. I gave points for technical execution in the designer, even if it wasn't the kind of course I'd like. The majority of the points I awarded were on objective measures and then a minority on subjective measures, but I took notes and tried to justify why I liked/didn't like something subjective. I spent a lot of time playing the courses. I tried to be very constructive with my criticisms.
I saw a lot of subjectivity in the other judges though. This is a VERY subjective process, overall, and I doubt many others did as much research as I did. They may have played courses more and judged in different ways though.
I think its important to have good players of this game as judges as well as good technical designers, AND designers with real golf architecture knowledge. All are valuable.
Some of my comments were publicly trashed anyway, even though I felt I was very justified in making them. My judgements were publicly questioned and even called laughable.
I'll never judge again. These contests are all too subjective, and I don't feel my (admittedly, limited) expertise was appreciated.
Sorry. To be fair though, I have no intention of ever entering a contest again either, so at least I'm not leeching off the pool of judges.
I really hope TGCT contest admins are able to wrangle the judging situation, because regardless of where the courses finish - every single contest so far has produced AMAZING courses, almost all of very high quality. And the designers really should be proud.
|
|
|
|
Post by warhawk137 on Feb 18, 2020 13:48:55 GMT -5
Some of my comments were publicly trashed anyway, even though I felt I was very justified in making them. My judgements were publicly questioned and even called laughable. Meh, if people don't like my judging opinions they know where they can put it. I'll still throw down with any of y'all over my opinion that Razorback was the best course in the Survivor contest. |
|
|
|
Post by lessthanbread on Feb 18, 2020 13:52:27 GMT -5
I'd be curious to know how a player only would go about judging a course for a contest. But Mcconnell makes a good point that you really want expert opinion from both sides and Wes makes another good point that many of the top designers are also excellent players so it really is the fact that it's tough to get the best judging panel because they best judges available are in the contest. And I disagree there is judging bias based on the fact that it's designers judging other designers.. that's how any contest works, subject matter experts are used to judge the subject they are experts in and they don't care who the contestants are
|
|
|
|
Post by DoubtfulObelisk on Feb 18, 2020 13:53:39 GMT -5
Some of my comments were publicly trashed anyway, even though I felt I was very justified in making them. My judgements were publicly questioned and even called laughable. Meh, if people don't like my judging opinions they know where they can put it. I'll still throw down with any of y'all over my opinion that Razorback was the best course in the Survivor contest. Monterey all day! That was a fun judging panel. Might volunteer again if I can find the free time. |
|
|
|
Post by Davidius74 on Feb 18, 2020 13:58:02 GMT -5
Having only players judging means they will most likely miss the technical elements of design and only go on playability and aesthetics. Having designers made it hard because the best designers were in the comp leaving a limited pool of people to judge. A mixture of both is good so you can see a course from both sides. Most designers though play the game and compete on the various levels of tgctours.
It all boils down to 32 good designers and 32 outstanding courses and many results were too close to call and there had to be winners and losers.
|
|
TCRBrad
Amateur Golfer
Midwest Ope-n Champion
Posts: 180
TGCT Name: TCRBrad
Tour: Challenge Circuit
|
Post by TCRBrad on Feb 18, 2020 14:03:44 GMT -5
* Me to the Final 16 *  |
|
reebdoog
TGCT Design Competition Directors
Posts: 2,742 
TGCT Name: Brian Jeffords
Tour: CC-Pro
|
Post by reebdoog on Feb 18, 2020 14:09:08 GMT -5
I'm strongly considering doing a Judging best practices type of tutorial stream after the contest is over. Why? Because in my experience it's quite easy to try way to hard to be a "judge" instead of just judging a course. There are ways to make the process easier and smoother and to take some of the pressure off (especially for first timers).
Would anyone have any interest or find benefit in that kind of stream? I can't tell anyone what to like or not like but there are best practices that allow things to be as fair and easy as possible.
If anyone thinks this suggestion makes me a pompous ass...well...you're allowed to have bad opinions. ;-)
|
|
|
|
Post by catcherman22 on Feb 18, 2020 14:10:41 GMT -5
I'd be curious to know how a player only would go about judging a course for a contest. But Mcconnell makes a good point that you really want expert opinion from both sides and Wes makes another good point that many of the top designers are also excellent players so it really is the fact that it's tough to get the best judging panel because they best judges available are in the contest. And I disagree there is judging bias based on the fact that it's designers judging other designers.. that's how any contest works, subject matter experts are used to judge the subject they are experts in and they don't care who the contestants are I am a player only, and I am probably the most senior judge having judged practically every official contest... |
|
TCRBrad
Amateur Golfer
Midwest Ope-n Champion
Posts: 180
TGCT Name: TCRBrad
Tour: Challenge Circuit
|
Post by TCRBrad on Feb 18, 2020 14:12:04 GMT -5
I'm strongly considering doing a Judging best practices type of tutorial stream after the contest is over. Why? Because in my experience it's quite easy to try way to hard to be a "judge" instead of just judging a course. There are ways to make the process easier and smoother and to take some of the pressure off (especially for first timers). Would anyone have any interest or find benefit in that kind of stream? I can't tell anyone what to like or not like but there are best practices that allow things to be as fair and easy as possible. If anyone thinks this suggestion makes me a pompous ass...well...you're allowed to have bad opinions. ;-) If you need a guinea pig I'm here for it. Looking to expand into a course judge roll for a few contests coming up (contrary to the angry mob) I get real geeky about this stuff |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2020 14:14:36 GMT -5
I have spent the better part of three years helping to build this design community to a great place for EVERYONE, whether rookie designer or experienced, and appreciating the player-only point of view. My contributions to teaching newer designers on my streams and doing tutorials for you guys was genuine. The fact that I’m hearing the word “elitist” thrown around behind my back cuts me to my core, and demonstrates that my willingness to help and my service as the TGCTours staff member overseeing official contests over the last three years was completely misunderstood.
If you think I’m being a sore loser because I didn’t WIN this contest, you are simply wrong, and totally missing the point. I think too highly of this field to ever assume a victory.
To Reeb and Justin: thank you for stepping up to run this contest, I appreciate you guys.
To the judges: thank you for dedicating the requisite time to play these courses, I know it isn’t easy.
To group E: I apologize if my disappointment overshadowed your joy, that was not fair of me, good luck in the next rounds.
With that being said, you won’t hear anything further from me on this, as I’ll be stepping away for a while. Being so misunderstood, having my character questioned, and being secretly disparaged is just too much to take right now.
May the best course win!
|
|
