reebdoog
TGCT Design Competition Directors
Posts: 2,742 
TGCT Name: Brian Jeffords
Tour: CC-Pro
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Post by reebdoog on Sept 30, 2019 13:00:45 GMT -5
It is not about a group. It's about the best tracks. Folks on tour have the right to play on the best courses. If folks would like to have more tour plays...make better courses. There is no Clique. What there is is established patterns of excellence. That's normal and is not based on clubs or groups as much as it is on the reputation earned by an excellent designer. So in that way of course there is preference at times. Again, the way to combat that is not to use different courses as much as it is for other designers to do better. The "it's a club" angle is the thing that folks are rolling their eyes about, not the point of getting more new stuff on tour.
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Post by rob4590 on Sept 30, 2019 13:02:26 GMT -5
To be fair - there are quite a few very good, self-inflicted, repeated reasons as to why the OP is an 'outsider'.....
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Post by Terry Grayson on Sept 30, 2019 13:09:43 GMT -5
I asked this before and Ill ask again Question to paulus and Jensen 1. who is the clique yall keep referring to? 2. Is there an entrance fee to said clique 3. do you have to punch a puppy or kick and old woman to enter? or are you beaten in like a normal "gang" 4. Who presides over said clique? 5. Do they have clique meetings? 6. are they simply trying to take over and destroy TGC like Paulus is alluding too in his post, hence the "need to break them up" sentence Back to the original point of this thread: Name a single course on that list David posted that doesn't deserve to host a tourney (You cant use mine though, I know they suck, it was pity usage) ha ha ha Lighten up everyone and just have a good time... its not that big of a deal |
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Post by CiB0RG on Sept 30, 2019 13:27:27 GMT -5
I can't comment on the quality of the courses not getting plays - but simply knowing how human psychology work - there will almost certainly be a subtle preference for previous known good designers and those who have been long standing members of the group - it's natural. Clique forming is known to happen in all social environment and is generally considered to have bad outcomes in both businesses and activity groups - which is why they often take pro-active steps to break them or avoid them forming. So, yep, I think the OP probably has a valid point for discussion here. You are right about cliques forming in business and activity groups and how it can be a "thorn in the side" of the social and productive culture desired. By definition and proven in sociological patterns there are groups of people likely to begin showing favoritism to one another and cutting themselves off from the others. No argument there. My question is where do people see that here in our design community and among the course schedulers? We know that the well-known designers are generally going to be publishing high quality courses and in most cases publish them quicker than your average designer. So if the courses selected for tours were based on the merit of the course alone... wouldn't it make sense to see the top designers pop up more frequently on tour? I also want to reiterate that a "clique" is generally a closed group or at least very limited as to who enters. In the design community this isn't the case. Knowledge, tips and tricks are available to everyone as well as loads of design content on youtube and twitch. Anyone can use those resources to become great designers. And as for a designers "social status" that also is not hard for ANYONE to earn. Everyone who is well known around here has achieved that notoriety by simply participating! Talking to people on the forums, leaving thoughts and feedback, joining in the chat on streams and just good old joking around with good taste and respect gets people recognized and involved. Using the "C word" bugs me because it is inaccurate. There are people here who enjoy the networking and getting involved. The people who claim to be "on the outside" see it as some kind of segregated status but I'm sorry, that's just not the case. Everyone is welcomed and encouraged to interact and get involved as a way to get to know others and improve your own skills. It is much easier to improve with give and take from the community which is why it looks like the "popular kids" always get picked. No... they get picked because their designs are good because they've had great help and support getting there. Period. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2019 13:29:04 GMT -5
Appreciate you helping to prove my point Eric 👍 In-group members will often seek to diminish/ridicule the opinion/input from outsiders... A) What makes me an "insider"? B) What makes you an "outsider"? and... C) The reason for the eye roll is because the tone of your posts is commonly nothing but self-righteous education-speak that comes across as you're smarter than everyone else and you have all the world's answers, and it's tiring. None of the people that are "insiders" as anyone on here claims have done anything to earn that "status," but in fact have been awarded that moniker by people like you and DDawg, having that heaped on "us" (whoever that is) as a negative thing for CONTRIBUTING to the community. If you don't see how backwards that is then I can't help you. It is absolutely amazing to me that you would portray anybody who contributes to this community as part of the problem. And as Robyn quite accurately pointed out, the people who often complain about the "insider" crew are only "outsiders" because they constantly wag their fingers at the community, which as I've said before, doesn't exactly make anyone want to be endearing to the ideas put forth. I anxiously await your highly educated and condescending response that comes across as you being the moral authority and the rest of us being knuckle-dragging idiots. |
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Post by paulus on Sept 30, 2019 13:29:27 GMT -5
I asked this before and Ill ask again Question to paulus and Jensen 1. who is the clique yall keep referring to? 2. Is there an entrance fee to said clique 3. do you have to punch a puppy or kick and old woman to enter? or are you beaten in like a normal "gang" 4. Who presides over said clique? 5. Do they have clique meetings? 6. are they simply trying to take over and destroy TGC like Paulus is alluding too in his post, hence the "need to break them up" sentence Back to the original point of this thread: Name a single course on that list David posted that doesn't deserve to host a tourney (You cant use mine though, I know they suck, it was pity usage) ha ha ha Lighten up everyone and just have a good time... its not that big of a deal I'm not referring to specific people - please re-read my post - I'm just saying they WILL form in every social situation - it's inevitable. Ofc they don't have meetings, with a clique President - that's just ridiculous. Reductio ad absurdum & will not wash as a rebuttal. Don't doubt that people are genuine in their motives - my sole point is that we should be mindful that cliques/in-groups form and they often act unintentionally and subconsciously to keep outsider in their place. People who don't think they exist here - are somewhat misguided - TGCT is populated by people too.And I'm quite lightened up thanks - I said this is a valid topic for discussion - that's what a forum is for, no? |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2019 13:34:20 GMT -5
I asked this before and Ill ask again Question to paulus and Jensen 1. who is the clique yall keep referring to? 2. Is there an entrance fee to said clique 3. do you have to punch a puppy or kick and old woman to enter? or are you beaten in like a normal "gang" 4. Who presides over said clique? 5. Do they have clique meetings? 6. are they simply trying to take over and destroy TGC like Paulus is alluding too in his post, hence the "need to break them up" sentence Back to the original point of this thread: Name a single course on that list David posted that doesn't deserve to host a tourney (You cant use mine though, I know they suck, it was pity usage) ha ha ha Lighten up everyone and just have a good time... its not that big of a deal I'm not referring to specific people - please re-read my post - I'm just saying they WILL form in every social situation - it's inevitable. Ofc they don't have meetings, with a clique President - that's just ridiculous. Reductio ad absurdum & will not wash as a rebuttal. Don't doubt that people are genuine in their motives - my sole point is that we should be mindful that cliques/in-groups form and they often act unintentionally and subconsciously to keep outsider in their place. People who don't think they exist here - are somewhat misguided - TGCT is populated by people too. And I'm quite lightened up thanks - I said this is a valid topic for discussion - that's what a forum is for, no? Reductio ad absurdum? <--- I'll go get my legal dictionary so I can know what the heck this means (thank you for proving MY point) "keep outsider in their place." <--- You name me ONE thing that this clique you refer to has done to keep somebody "out" or to put them "in their place." The people responding on this thread have DONE MORE for newer designers than you will ever know, so I absolutely REJECT this premise with all of my being, and I find it offensive that you once again attribute characteristics to the "in crowd" that do NOT actually exist. |
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Post by paulus on Sept 30, 2019 13:39:35 GMT -5
Appreciate you helping to prove my point Eric 👍 In-group members will often seek to diminish/ridicule the opinion/input from outsiders... A) What makes me an "insider"? B) What makes you an "outsider"? and... C) The reason for the eye roll is because the tone of your posts is commonly nothing but self-righteous education-speak that comes across as you're smarter than everyone else and you have all the world's answers, and it's tiring. None of the people that are "insiders" as anyone on here claims have done anything to earn that "status," but in fact have been awarded that moniker by people like you and DDawg, having that heaped on "us" (whoever that is) as a negative thing for CONTRIBUTING to the community. If you don't see how backwards that is then I can't help you. It is absolutely amazing to me that you would portray anybody who contributes to this community as part of the problem. And as Robyn quite accurately pointed out, the people who often complain about the "insider" crew are only "outsiders" because they constantly wag their fingers at the community, which as I've said before, doesn't exactly make anyone want to be endearing to the ideas put forth. I anxiously await your highly educated and condescending response that comes across as you being the moral authority and the rest of us being knuckle-dragging idiots. We all come across one way or the other. It's an opinion - take it as you will. I won't describe the many tiring aspects of your personality, life's too short. Tbh, not sure why I think that you, a global moderator, would be part of the in-group  |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2019 13:51:37 GMT -5
LOL, again, if I'm considered part of the "in-group" as a result of my volunteering and many hours donating my time and money to this site, so be it, but using that against me as a negative is completely ridiculous. And actually, I would love for you to publicly point out the many tiring aspects of my personality so that I know all of my shortcomings from the authority on humanity.  <--- adding the requisite winky face |
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Post by paulus on Sept 30, 2019 14:11:38 GMT -5
Who's righteous? Volunteering & donating is done by lots of people here.
And extending my position so that you can find a way to see this simple opinion...
In groups are inevitable, their impact / bias is subconscious. It's worthwhile considering process measures to avoid those.
...as offensive, is over-sensitive to the point of snowflakery. No-one has dismissed the importance/good work done by the existing course contributors - just that being more inclusive is never a bad thing.
Final point before I leave you to it - I don't have a clue about DDawg's past within the forum - just take each discussion point on it's own merits.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2019 14:55:37 GMT -5
Alright, I'm SO done with you paulus. No more responses from me. You LOVE to twist people's words up and use it against them, just brilliant. Whatever makes you feel like the superior figure man, I'm happy to let you have that crown. |
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DDawg
Amateur Golfer
Posts: 186
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Post by DDawg on Sept 30, 2019 15:12:42 GMT -5
I will type this one final time ... it isn't about my submitted courses, or them being played on tour.
If some of you feel it is, petition management to remove every FRICK'n one of them, all thirty or, forty of them.
I also said, it had nothing to do with the quality of the courses being selected.
I legitimately mentioned that maybe, there should be a limit, so more designers could have their moment. Period.
I am sure some of you can read something else into this, too.
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Post by jwtexan on Sept 30, 2019 15:20:36 GMT -5
Well this is going about as I expected.
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Post by ErixonStone on Sept 30, 2019 15:44:15 GMT -5
I can't comment on the quality of the courses not getting plays - but simply knowing how human psychology work - there will almost certainly be a subtle preference for previous known good designers and those who have been long standing members of the group - it's natural. Clique forming is known to happen in all social environment and is generally considered to have bad outcomes in both businesses and activity groups - which is why they often take pro-active steps to break them or avoid them forming. So, yep, I think the OP probably has a valid point for discussion here. While the OP may appear to have a valid point, this discussion has been had many times, and the idea of a design clique affecting the TGCT schedule has been debunked every time. I partnered with Dan to assemble the CC Tour schedule for two seasons, over which period Dan and I scheduled 164 events. Not a single time was a course chosen over any other course because the designer was a friend. While there may be a small group of designers who happen to collaborate together often and speak outside of the TGCT community setting, Dan and I are not part of that group. Neither were any of the other schedulers during seasons 4 and 5. So, again, while it may be a worthwhile discussion to have, because in-grouping and out-grouping happens in social settings, you also have to bring the evidence that supports the idea that it is happening in this specific instance. You don't have any evidence to suggest that the TGCT schedule is affected by social grouping. Until you bring some, then please stop. David is gaslighting. Don't buy it. |
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Post by boffo on Sept 30, 2019 15:53:34 GMT -5
Hold on a second. While I'm listed as "head ranger" as opposed to "president ranger" it's not too dissimilar a position. We have our own secret room on these forums where we get together to discuss things, and you wouldn't believe the things that we say about "outsiders" while we're in there. Are the rangers a clique? Should I be collecting membership dues from them?
And please stop referring to clique as the "C-word". This forum already has two other controversial words that have both spent time as the "C-word". Adding another one will either confuse me too much or I'll just stop using any words that start with c out of fear it's probably bad and I'll get banned for it.
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<--- adding the requisite winky face
