DDawg
Amateur Golfer
Posts: 186
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Post by DDawg on Sept 30, 2019 23:02:51 GMT -5
I asked this before and Ill ask again Question to paulus and Jensen 1. who is the clique yall keep referring to? 2. Is there an entrance fee to said clique 3. do you have to punch a puppy or kick and old woman to enter? or are you beaten in like a normal "gang" 4. Who presides over said clique? 5. Do they have clique meetings? 6. are they simply trying to take over and destroy TGC like Paulus is alluding too in his post, hence the "need to break them up" sentence Back to the original point of this thread: Name a single course on that list David posted that doesn't deserve to host a tourney (You cant use mine though, I know they suck, it was pity usage) ha ha ha Lighten up everyone and just have a good time... its not that big of a deal And one more time for Mr. Grayson. insisting, once again, to drag me back into the fray. #1 ... where in my short original post did I once mention any "clique"... implied or, otherwise. #2 ... nonsense ... no reply needed. #3-6 ... More nonsense, in an attempt to stir the pot. And the final question, Name where I named a course, or even suggested a course, that didn't belong on tour. Finally, that list is not mine, it is found right here. I merely condensed it and sorted it. Henceforth, the only problem here ... is reading stuff that isn't there ... inserting more content, attempting to do what you and several others, seem to have done in the past. This was just a simple suggestion and one possible solution. One that I have finally came to realize, that no matter what I post. Several will always chime in with the expected results. I have grown tired of replying to this crap. I quit this place once, that was a mistake. I won't quit this time. I just will reduce my participation even more (I had seriously thought of becoming active in the tours - now a flash in the pan). And for using any of my courses in the future, on any TGCT tour event. I prefer not. As I said, there are plenty of new, great upstart designers, that deserve their courses being used. |
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Post by Terry Grayson on Oct 1, 2019 7:59:47 GMT -5
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Post by ezzinomilonga on Oct 1, 2019 9:16:20 GMT -5
VctryLnSprts no no, mate..please, don't apologize. You did or said absolutely nothing wrong. And no matters if you're a moderator. You are human, is normal that if you read a discussion in which you need to say something and the discussion take a "wrong road", you can't just stay impartial. Your only "fault" here is to be simply involved in a typical discussion about designing here. Is always the same. And for sure is not your fault. And nobody could ever pretend that you act like a machine just cause you're a moderator. No counting the fact that you are absolutely a nice person in everything, for the little I can see. Exactly as the majority of all you guys are. And this is what really astonishes me. Is exactly the fact that, while almost every designer I know (or see how he acts and spokes) is actually a nice guy..everytime the theme is about these things, everyone..and I mean EVERYONE, just seems to completely lose his mind. And please trust me when I say that all my words are not with someone in my mind to criticize. I really believe that this "disease" afflicts almost anyone, here. This is my point. And..about the OP, just to be more precise and for the little it can matters, I don't think that to limit the number of courses used by a designer could ever be a fair (or intelligent) move. We should use the best possible courses, always, no matter who is the designer. Simply this. My point is that for me (but I think even for anyone who follows the dynamics of this community a bit) is clear that something happened between some of you designers, in these years..but again..i can't know what..and are just your business..but what I wanted to point out is simply that this thing creates problems in the community. And is something that exists. I'm not just imagining it. I really wish you could find a way to fix it. Is clear that is impossible to be all friends. But sometimes things are pushed too far and in a too wrong way and with not an apparent reason. And normally when this happens, is always for a problem between people, not for the occasional theme of the discussion. And I think this is the case. Another thing I wish to point out is that..exactly cause all of you are in the elite of designers, your attitude is an example for other designers. If you act and react nicely, the other designers tendentially follow you..but this happens even when you act or react in the wrong way. All of you are a referring point. Is a great thing. But is a responsibility. (and please guys, stop to joke in such a silly way about the idea of "elite". Is a beautiful word. A great concept. And we're blessed, to have such talented and passionate people who shares their talent for our amusement. I really can't see how is possible to deviate this idea to make it almost an insult. Is..silly. C'mon! If I read carefully all this thread, I see only subterranean despise and nothing constructive. I just wish that..things would be different. To find a better equilibrium. Even between guys who are..not exactly on the same page, as is normal that happens un a community made by a huge number of people). Celtic Wolf I understand perfectly what you mean. But is also true that when you share your work with a community, you need to deal with the good and enthusiastic reactions..and also with the critics. Then is clear that if the critic it sounds simply as "this sucks" or something else just disrespectful and no constructive at all, we are a community still healthy enough to understand that who speaks in this way is just a stupid and his critic matters zero. But I must admit that I see that even the fair enough critics are not well received. I understand that it hurts when, after weeks of hard and passioned work, the result seems to be not so greatly received..but is impossible to have always great critics. Is the nature of the sharing. Just for example, in these days I criticized 3/4 courses. With the same energy I use when I'm enthusiast about a course. I imagine that someone don't appreciate it too much. But I know why I criticized these courses. My opinion can be agreeable or not..but is my opinion. And is given always trying to do the best interest of the tour (at least in my intentions, I can easily swear on this), never just for the stupid pleasure to break the balls. Or to critic a designer or his work. I have just the idea that the 300 (more or less) courses used on the tour should be always freaking good. Not cause I'm a maniac, but cause we ACTUALLY have, 300 (and many more) courses freaking good! About the community and who complains about the fact that "before was better"..this is a senseless thought. Things changes. This community now is much more bigger than before. This means that there are much more heads, opinions, nice persons, stupid people, talented designers, a$$holes..i mean..all the normal things we can see in every human community. We can't be all friends..but we can respect anyone. And we should. At least who give us respect in the same way. I strongly believe that this stays a great community, full of nice people. If we stay motivated to improve things, no matter how many stupid a$$holes we have, the community will stay healthy and beautiful. If we start to think we have nothing more to improve, that we can't fail, or if we start to create little groups, our little worlds losing the joy to stay all together..we'll lose something every day. So please..in short..instead to continue to act childishly (as is happening in this thread), please..who has problems with someone else..please, try to fix the whole thing. And just restart. Try, at least.
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Post by Terry Grayson on Oct 1, 2019 9:30:03 GMT -5
Ill say this and leave this thread alone If anyone thinks for a minute I am being serious with any post in this thread, then they haven't been around long enough to realize I am a goofball I mean zero harm, I just get a kick out of folks taking everything so serious with a GAME, it boggles my mind to read posts to the contrary This game is a release from every day life, its supposed to be fun, but there is so much whining and moaning over things that mean absolutely NOTHING at the end of the day that I just cant help throwing in something silly... If it offends anyone its not my intent, its a means of trying to lighten the proverbial load Just so much negativity in the world over every single thing... its monotonous and silly.... HAVE FUN... who cares who gets a course, who cares if you design something and someone doesnt like it play the game for you design for you, have fun with whomever you have fun with in the game.. thats what it is all about Too many people spend too much of their time being miserable, just read the forum posts of a bunch of them, nothing nice hardly ever, always negative, always something bad to say, always passive aggressive OVER A GAME!!!!!! That in turn, is why I act silly, do the stupid little bird emojis and just generally act like I have zero sense...Its a fun relaxing way to get through every day life... When it begins to not be fun, thats when Im outta here... But I just dont see it happening LIghten up folks, its a G-A-M-E enjoy it or dont Just my thoughts
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Post by cephyn on Oct 1, 2019 9:32:39 GMT -5
Instead of limiting - why not do designers that haven't gotten on tour (or have courses that are deserving, in your mind) a solid and literally send a PM to the schedulers asking them to check the course out?
Why is that so hard?
If you feel courses are being overlooked - help raise their profile.
This has nothing to do with cliques and everything to do with the fact that there's so many courses put out every month it's impossible for the schedulers to keep track of them all. It's incredibly hard for a new or middle-of-the road designer to stand out because there's so many quality courses, ESPECIALLY ones by designers with known track records.
So help the designers that need help - don't put artificial limits on things. Help no-name designers make a name for themselves by evangelizing the courses you believe should get a shot.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2019 10:25:29 GMT -5
Thanks Ezzino, I appreciate the kind words.
By definition, I will concede that the DAM is a clique, but the reason I tend to get overly sensitive about that word is because it typically comes with negative connotations. To Terry’s point, he and I started the DAM as a goofy joke to make fun of OURSELVES, talking about our designs as “goat ranches.” We have since added 8 other friends that we collab with as a design syndicate, but the Dirty Ankle Mafia doesn’t actually ‘mean’ anything, so when we post things we’re not trying to gang up on anyone, we’re still just individuals, often being silly or trying to lighten the mood (except me, I get testy sometimes).
I would go as far as to say that the only reason you guys even know who is in the DAM or not is based on the signature banners, because if you spend time with any of us on Twitch or online, we don’t behave like a secluded “in crowd.” One of our unofficial missions is to design fun courses and to benefit the community through service. Every guy in the DAM spends many hours in a volunteer role for TGCT, and that comes from the heart, so that’s why the negative “clique” stuff really gets to me. And for that, I apologize. Please try not to take us too seriously.
I genuinely believe that 99% of guys in this community are good people that mean well, and I would include everyone on this thread in that characterization (even the ones I disagree with). But we’re all men with opinions, too, and that’s where it gets slippery and we start to have a go at each other. I know I’ve contributed to that at times, I can own that. Heck, it’s no secret that Ray and I had a go at each other two months ago that earned us both a time-out, but we’ve patched it up and now we talk online privately with respect toward each other. 👍🏻
Anyway, sorry for the long post.
Cliff Notes: Most people in here mean well, let’s not take each other too seriously, the DAM tries to be a nice clique, I’m sorry for being an a$$.
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Post by Celtic Wolf on Oct 1, 2019 10:30:35 GMT -5
ezzinomilonga There are some people yourself included that will visit the Completed Courses section and leave feedback both positive and negative. I'd like to encourage our members to do this as well as trying out betas of courses that are under construction. Doing so means they can have input in the design and play the course casually. But what seems to happen is a lot of members only experience of a course is when it is on tour with different conditions and when they may be under pressure to score well. I've seen many betas being released in an effort to get feedback and not getting much back, I admit that I don't take part much myself. Some may say they don't have time or don't feel qualified to give advice about a course design but if they get involved earlier in the process problems can be sorted before it appears on tour.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2019 11:29:14 GMT -5
The points that cephyn made are extremely valid, and the more objective view I drape over this topic, the more I see a couple other factors in play. If we look at getting a course chosen for the tour outside of the words “clique” or “in crowd,” one thing that I think we can agree on is that any course has a greater probability of getting noticed if the designer is active on the forums, and engages with the community at-large in a positive way. The schedulers simply have a larger probability of noticing the new course or new designer if there is engagement. Real-life examples of this would be guys like Kevin, Wes, Taylor, Justin C, Chris, Aron, etc. who have been new in recent months/years and all contributed to the forums with positive engagement, not part of any unofficial ‘group,’ and all had a course put on tour (and now likely more to come). Speaking from personal experience, I’m also more than happy to help a new designer get on tour, and I have, too. I can think of a handful of times right off the top of my head where I reached out to a scheduler on behalf of a new designer and said, “hey, give this course a look.” But that step usually happens when the designer reaches out in a constructive way to ask how to get on tour, rather than causing drama because they never get selected and then when you look at their forum profile they have 3 posts ever. Ask acesgalore about Old Man of Hoy and see what feedback he gives about how I handle this type of request (again, the reason I get defensive about the clique stuff). Maybe we should ask these questions in case it ends up being helpful: Are there specific courses that anyone feels the schedulers have overlooked? Are there ways we can impact this discussion with actions that would satisfy the objective of the OP? |
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DDawg
Amateur Golfer
Posts: 186
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Post by DDawg on Oct 1, 2019 12:37:39 GMT -5
Eric, again you earn my kudos.
With your last few post, demonstrates the reason I have respect for you. Although we have vast contrast on each other's ideas. There is a neutral commonality underlining it all.
As for have starting this damn thread ... I openly wish to apologize to Sam Morris. For his post, that was made in another thread, me wonder about what goes on under the hood. Which in turn made me think, is there a possible solution to get more designers exposed and on tour.
As for me not posting here more ... I will not go into that can of worms.
And as for the future, I meant what I said. About my submissions of courses, and thier use.
The flash mob mentality has won over, and tired of seeing it happen to lots of people, in various other threads, on different topics...
I have no further comments on this topic. I am tired of having my words, thoughts, or ideas twisted.
Not butthurt, just sadden and disappointed all this came from an innocent idea.
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Post by boffo on Oct 1, 2019 13:42:52 GMT -5
Thanks Ezzino, I appreciate the kind words. By definition, I will concede that the DAM is a clique, but the reason I tend to get overly sensitive about that word is because it typically comes with negative connotations. To Terry’s point, he and I started the DAM as a goofy joke to make fun of OURSELVES, talking about our designs as “goat ranches.” We have since added 8 other friends that we collab with as a design syndicate, but the Dirty Ankle Mafia doesn’t actually ‘mean’ anything, so when we post things we’re not trying to gang up on anyone, we’re still just individuals, often being silly or trying to lighten the mood (except me, I get testy sometimes). I would go as far as to say that the only reason you guys even know who is in the DAM or not is based on the signature banners, because if you spend time with any of us on Twitch or online, we don’t behave like a secluded “in crowd.” One of our unofficial missions is to design fun courses and to benefit the community through service. Every guy in the DAM spends many hours in a volunteer role for TGCT, and that comes from the heart, so that’s why the negative “clique” stuff really gets to me. And for that, I apologize. Please try not to take us too seriously. I genuinely believe that 99% of guys in this community are good people that mean well, and I would include everyone on this thread in that characterization (even the ones I disagree with). But we’re all men with opinions, too, and that’s where it gets slippery and we start to have a go at each other. I know I’ve contributed to that at times, I can own that. Heck, it’s no secret that Ray and I had a go at each other two months ago that earned us both a time-out, but we’ve patched it up and now we talk online privately with respect toward each other. 👍🏻 Anyway, sorry for the long post. Cliff Notes: Most people in here mean well, let’s not take each other too seriously, the DAM tries to be a nice clique, I’m sorry for being an a$$. This answered so many questions I'd never cared enough to ask. As someone who has forum signatures turned off(forum looks so much cleaner and I highly recommend that everyone should turn them off) I had no idea who or what was involved with this DAM thing that I'd see mentioned occasionally in the shoutbox. I just thought it was three or four guys who were really big beaver or hydro electricity enthusiasts. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2019 15:14:52 GMT -5
LMAO! Goat enthusiasts! 🐐
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2019 15:16:34 GMT -5
Thanks DDawg!
Did you have any thoughts regarding the questions on my last post?
They were:
Are there specific courses that anyone feels the schedulers have overlooked?
Are there ways we can impact this discussion with actions that would satisfy the objective of the OP?
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Post by cephyn on Oct 1, 2019 16:04:52 GMT -5
I'd love some 'better' way to get courses on tour - but I think in the end, there will always be courses 'left out' and someone will feel slighted.
All I can think of is stickied "Course suggestions" in each forum section. I think it would have to be aggressively policed/moderated though - any course suggestion should also include at least a few sentences as to why it deserves a shot. Otherwise, delete the suggestion.
But then that leads to people expecting suggestions to actually be taken up, and when they're not, they want to know why, and that's a ton of work. So it may not help.
I know we have the rangers but maybe there needs to be a more aggressive pre-rangering system for people who want to seek out those lesser known courses that deserve a shot, maybe even DDawg himself as one of them. People who collect these forgotten courses and submit them via a private forum.
Of course, those tastemakers will immediately be accused of becoming a clique, so that's probably out too.
In the end there's no real way to win, since when a scheduler DOES put an unknown on the tour, often times it's not up to the quality level of a [insert top designer name here] and the course gets a ton of unconstructive feedback. It can be demoralizing.
Basically, to me, it feels like the system is a little clunky but works better than any other ideas I might have.
I definitely have a course I would love considered for tour - but its exhausting and feels gross to have to push my own course. And it can be incredibly intimidating for newbies to even think of suggesting their own course to a scheduler - not because of any specific 'cliques' but because they're probably fully aware their course isn't as good as a [insert top designer here] course. I can only speak for myself - but I'd love it if my course would speak for itself and the community would champion it. Maybe encourage people in the completed courses threads, when commenting, to also say if they feel it belongs on tour, and which tour. That might make it easier for schedulers to find.
But let's not forget, people LIKE playing the courses from the big name designers. They're often great courses. There's just simply too many courses out there and not enough slots on tour.
A lot of spitballing when I wasn't specifically asked, but there we have it. Would love DDawg to address Eric's questions, since he brought up this complaint to begin with. This is a community run site, so I think complaints and criticisms are far more well-received when they come with some ideas to address the situation, or at least some honest, fair questions as to what might be happening to cause the problem.
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Post by Oscar C on Oct 1, 2019 17:00:18 GMT -5
Easily the thread with the longest replies!  |
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Post by ezzinomilonga on Oct 1, 2019 17:21:05 GMT -5
Finally I decided to search "clique" on google (shhh..don't laugh. My vocabulary is limited in English and i'm a lazy guy,ok?) and well..i was really distant to understand what the word really means..it sounded no good, but I don't knew exactly why. I was thinking it could be related to the idea of elite, but now that I checked it..is not, cause is a word full of bad nuances, for me. In Italian we use the word "cricca" to explain the same concept. A word used mainly to describe a little group of people that is not only totally unfriendly with who is not in the "cricca", but that also use his position (often of privilege) to gain undeserved, if not unlegit, advantages. Honestly, I can't see any cricca here. All I see is a lot of people involved and full of love for something all we share. And as far I can see, to consider the guys of the DAM (in the specific case) some kind of clique it would be absolutely unfair, twisting the reality. First of all they are always fully supportive with other designers and the easy proof is that there is almost no thread on the complete courses section in which someone of the DAM is not there to gives advices, share thoughts and feedbacks and their work is real luck for a lot of designers. And all this is made always with a laugh, that is something that has no price. No counting all the stuff shared with streaming every day..the collaboration's projects with other designers and so go on. And about the unfair advantages to gain...unless someone don't promised them a life long furniture of goats taxes free from the black market..i can't really see the point. What they should ever gain? Money? Glory? More courses used on Tour? C'mon.. The truth is that we are so used to have so much from so many people that we sometimes seems to forget how much lucky we are, having a LOT of great guys who, with their hard work and great passion, are tremendously important for this community. And I'm not talking anymore just about DAM here, obviously. I mean all those guys who creates videos full of tips about designing, sharing their knowledge and passion for nothing in change. And all those guys that are every day here being helpful with others in dozens of ways. If I should ever try to design a course and the result should be acceptable, I already know that it would be possible only for the work and the help of these guys. And all these guys, gained only the respect of all the community..exactly cause they never acts like a clique. I understand why this word sounds so inacceptable..and actually it is. Definitely, i agree with mr. Grayson here (a man who always find a way to remember me for what my middle finger is made  ). Our passion should never became obsession. And everything should be always saw in the right perspective. I know is not always easy..but at least we should never let that the sporadic disagreement can grow up becoming rage, dislike, envy, fights and all this kind of stuff not helpful at all. |
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). Our passion should never became obsession. And everything should be always saw in the right perspective. I know is not always easy..but at least we should never let that the sporadic disagreement can grow up becoming rage, dislike, envy, fights and all this kind of stuff not helpful at all.