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Post by mcbogga on Feb 20, 2015 19:23:11 GMT -5
So your saying that your play will be relatively worse if we increase difficulty while you can magically compete if it is easier? Can't quite follow your reasoning? I'm not saying to make the game more difficult specifically for you...
And people serious about making it onto the top tours would no doubt practice at that difficulty level before stepping foot on the real tour.
This is a competition - and with current huge user base and feeder tiers there is absolutely no reason to make the top tier "inclusive" or "welcoming".
If you are saying that you enjoy and want to shoot video game scores in the 50s and low 60s - then that is your opinion and I respect that. Completely disagree with it, but opinions are opinions. If you think a bit however I think you will understand the point about "compressing" the fields earlier in the thread.
Also - if you don't have the game to compete, then you won't be on the pga tour, no matter game settings.
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Post by mcbogga on Feb 20, 2015 19:36:12 GMT -5
Again, point missed. Don't you realize that there will always be a gap? No matter how hard a player ranked 100th practices will ever be able to compete with the top 10 or more. There will always be players ranked 1st, 10th, 50th, 250th. They ALL practiced and this is how good they got. You might be banging your head against the wall like I am, trying to understand how I'm not getting it! LoL That's a quite defeatist look on life you got there. Bud... I wonder where guys like mcIllroy and maybe the best example - poulter - would be today with that attitude because at some point most certainly there were people that were better than them at the game and that did practice...Yet - McIllroy is now dominating golf and Pulter went from being a 4 handicap to ryder cup heroics. Maybe their mindset is a bit different than yours.... |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2015 19:39:28 GMT -5
So your saying that your play will be relatively worse if we increase difficulty while you can magically compete if it is easier? Can't quite follow your reasoning? I'm not saying to make the game more difficult specifically for you... And people serious about making it onto the top tours would no doubt practice at that difficulty level before stepping foot on the real tour. This is a competition - and with current huge user base and feeder tiers there is absolutely no reason to make the top tier "inclusive" or "welcoming". If you are saying that you enjoy and want to shoot video game scores in the 50s and low 60s - then that is your opinion and I respect that. Completely disagree with it, but opinions are opinions. If you think a bit however I think you will understand the point about "compressing" the fields earlier in the thread. Also - if you don't have the game to compete, then you won't be on the pga tour, no matter game settings. My reasoning is that the PGA/Euro tour are already difficult enough for 95% of the players because of the competition at that level. Making it harder doesn't help anyone, as the top 5% probably already play with that added difficulty in their free time anyway. I certainly don't shoot in the 50's or even low 60's on any regular basis, and I struggle to make cuts on the Web.com tour. So as an average player, while it's unlikely for me to compete on the PGA/Euro tour level, I know it is still slightly possible for me to make cuts at that level if I play well enough. Adding difficulty to these tours gives most players virtually no shot of making cuts at those levels, and therefor would have little to no desire to even attempt to play on those tours. |
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Post by mcbogga on Feb 20, 2015 20:04:30 GMT -5
But it should be equally more difficult for everyone to make that same cut, so again I don't see your point. Unless you are saying you want a way to be able to beat guys that are better than you? I do think that score variability needs to be adjusted and that is a huge point in my earlier post. This would mean that a guy like you or me having a good tourney can be up there and the top players on an off tourney will struggle to meet the cut. What I really do not want is tourneys where difference between first place and missed cut is 2 shots over two rounds, and while still early days we are moving in that direction. This, if anything, will make it 100% impossible for guys like you (no offence, you said yourself you struggle) to make a cut. I think we actually want the same thing.
Rythmicslaps, If you are not good enough you are not good enough. To paraphrase the PGA - "These guys are good". I'm a "journeyman" on the Euro-tour with slim prospects to make it to the top as well. Does not mean I think the tours should adapt to me so I can "compete". They are already doing a great job with champions tour and web.com. You need to earn your spot on the top tier.
So, please try to look at this from the overall perspective and maybe you can see the point...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2015 21:36:45 GMT -5
I'm not looking to be catered to or to have help. I'm just saying it's fine how it is.
Making the higher tours more difficult at a gameplay level on top of the sheer player skill level will drive away a lot of players.
It's not worth losing a big proportion of the player base so the top scorers are -50 after 4 rounds instead of -60. It's not even close to worth it.
Before we started TGCTours we did a hardcore version of it and we had about 150 or so guys playing the standard version and about 20 doing hardcore. A very small group of players actually enjoy playing like that. See the polls in the PGA and Euro board asking about aids.
I was just saying why I dislike it, I go from a 10% chance at making cuts at the top level to a 00.1% and having no fun playing "hardcore" mode, and wouldn't even want to make the PGA/Euro tour at that point not just because I can't compete but I also don't want to play with no green grids or whatever it is cause that's the opposite of fun for me. I'm actually excited to play on the PGA tour this weekend with my exemption and its my goal to make it there permanently even if I miss 90% of cuts but if it's hardcore mode I wouldn't have any desire to play on it and would eventually get bored of playing on the web. com tour when I have no desire to move up. and given the small amount of people actually on board with playing with no or reduced aids, I'm not alone.
That said this thread is nothing but going around in circles and no ones opinions will be changed, nor will the tournament setup as far as I'm aware. So I vote for a lock.
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Post by Doyley on Feb 20, 2015 22:55:56 GMT -5
Lots of interesting discussion here - from our standpoint as admin, and from my previous experience running hardcore tours, I can say with 99% certainty that the Web and Champions Tours settings will remain on default. I will leave the PGA/Euro tours open for change. With the current set of options available, none of them as they stand today will be used on the pro tours either. If an option is introduced down the road that is fair and balanced and makes sense to implement, we will likely look into doing it - but not before we'd run a series of test tours with all tour card holders. Again, at this point in time, all tours will remain default settings. The biggest change to come is likely in the form of the wind being the same per round and multiple pins. Those two features on the horizon are game changers for TGC Tours.
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Post by mcbogga on Feb 21, 2015 0:11:42 GMT -5
I'm sure you guys will do what's right Doyley, just want to highlight the "compression" issues that are likely to happen. Main "issue" as we know is that the base mechanic is a bit too simple.
What the "right" level actually is is subjective and I agree with the slapper that we are going in circles. It was a good discussion though.
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Post by Maark on Feb 21, 2015 4:53:59 GMT -5
I don't understand why having a rigid wind setup for tournaments is a good thing. Surely the variable winds help to make playing TGC a sim experience and means a wider range of outcomes to similar looking approach shots.
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Post by schatuk on Feb 21, 2015 6:02:07 GMT -5
The setup won't be rigid. They're looking to allow tournament creators to set a range for wind, not a specific value, and direction will still vary in real time.
The benefit is that all competitors are playing in broadly similar conditions (not identical) rather than the current situation where some play in 3mph and some in 20mph depending on when they tee off - setting a wind range also eliminates wind waiting at a stroke.
Ideally each round of a tournament can have its own differing wind range setting to make it more interesting over four rounds
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Post by nevadaballin on Feb 21, 2015 6:15:07 GMT -5
Again, point missed. Don't you realize that there will always be a gap? No matter how hard a player ranked 100th practices will ever be able to compete with the top 10 or more. There will always be players ranked 1st, 10th, 50th, 250th. They ALL practiced and this is how good they got. You might be banging your head against the wall like I am, trying to understand how I'm not getting it! LoL Yes. I understand there is a gap. It's sports. A competition. There is supposed to be a gap. It separates the winners and losers. That's the entire point.t of being in a competition. |
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Post by Maark on Feb 21, 2015 7:31:04 GMT -5
The setup won't be rigid. They're looking to allow tournament creators to set a range for wind. Ideally each round of a tournament can have its own differing wind range setting to make it more interesting over four rounds We have comments all through this thread surrounding realism, reflecting RL golf, thus handicaps are a no go, yet the other hand wants to harness the wind, just like RL golf conditions. All I see with handicaps is that after a four round tournament the leaders will be -15 instead of -60, people at my level will still be hovering around the cut level still 20 shots back but more resembling the real world scoreboards. |
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Post by Matt10 on Feb 21, 2015 9:15:15 GMT -5
The setup won't be rigid. They're looking to allow tournament creators to set a range for wind. Ideally each round of a tournament can have its own differing wind range setting to make it more interesting over four rounds We have comments all through this thread surrounding realism, reflecting RL golf, thus handicaps are a no go, yet the other hand wants to harness the wind, just like RL golf conditions. All I see with handicaps is that after a four round tournament the leaders will be -15 instead of -60, people at my level will still be hovering around the cut level still 20 shots back but more resembling the real world scoreboards. This is why I wanted to stay on topic per the actual OP's thoughts about the "easiest" way to raise scores, meaning what can be done right now, hypothetically right now, to implement easily. The problem that I see is that we have some players that want to play arcade golf and some want to play sim - just depends, who wants to give a little bit more wiggle room than the other. That's obviously not going to happen, so the default approach is to wait it out. I was always under the impression that the guys who hated the arcadic TW series (on consoles primarily) were filtered out on here, and anything that seemed like an obvious arcade game vs sim advantage would be against their gaming approach. What I do know is that this community is great. Some excellent conversations, and chances within this thread to get personal - but everyone has kept fairly level headed. I'm a passionate realism buff, it's what I've been promoting since I was 16 (29 now) throughout the internet world, so it's tough for me to shut off - and tough for me to give in so easily to arcade based cheats that don't work in favor of respecting the real game of golf. |
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Post by schatuk on Feb 21, 2015 9:19:19 GMT -5
The setup won't be rigid. They're looking to allow tournament creators to set a range for wind. Ideally each round of a tournament can have its own differing wind range setting to make it more interesting over four rounds We have comments all through this thread surrounding realism, reflecting RL golf, thus handicaps are a no go, yet the other hand wants to harness the wind, just like RL golf conditions. All I see with handicaps is that after a four round tournament the leaders will be -15 instead of -60, people at my level will still be hovering around the cut level still 20 shots back but more resembling the real world scoreboards. Well, personally speaking, realism is less important than a level playing field in a tour like this. Just like the wind, a handicap system is wide open to abuse from those prepared to game the system and as such isn't really a preferable option IMO. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2015 9:26:44 GMT -5
if implementing the handicap system was actually a good idea, you would think the top players would suggest it huh.
handicap is the wrong way to go, it achieves nothing good. the day I lose after shooting a -40+ to a guy who barely broke par in a 4 round tourney is the day I walk away.
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Post by Oblong on Feb 21, 2015 9:53:18 GMT -5
Handicapping would be horrid even though it would "benefit" a guy like me who is wildly inconsistent. Top players have hit the ceiling and are consistent enough that a -12 to -15 handicap leaves them zero room to break a handicapped par. For someone like me who can shoot -12 one day and -3 the next, my -6 handicap would allow me to clean house any time I put 4 good rounds together. We won't even go into how players could easily sandbag their cap during the week and pad a few strokes to their score on the weekend.
I keep thinking of Gaylord Focker's wall of 9th place ribbons. ;P
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