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Post by fondername0 on Feb 22, 2015 22:29:54 GMT -5
Unfortunately, someone else's words and thoughts can be misconstrued to seemingly win an arguement. In that process, the point of what I happened to say fell victim to this 'practice' (LoL) this time. To attempt to give credibility and possibly help fan flames, you relayed my post completely wrong. Again, rather than ask me exactly, Hey Golfer, I'm confused, what do you mean? You are stating that I said or even think tha practice is useless! That's funny but sad as well. I never said or implied that. I hate using extremes as examples but, I will. I'll try again to explain a simple, worldly understood fact. No matter how hard let's say Ricky Fowler practices, he will never be as good as Jack Nicklaus. Never did I say, therefore, he should not practice. Sorry. Not because he doesn't try but, let's be real. Nicklaus was great because of many other factors. No matter how hard I try, I'm never going to dunk a basketball. Unless they lower the rim...substantially! This is just the way things are. Pertaining to this game, same applies. As in life, there will always be an elite batch of players. To say that all one has to do is practice and they will become elite too is ludicrous, silly and barely scraping the surface of thought. I cannot believe this simple logic has been so hard to convey. I am sorry for thinking you were the one who said, this or that. I kinda felt like I was dodging and ducking some arrows at the time. I think I'm trying to say there are different factors as to why you or I might be at the top or bottom. I also never said anything about changing the game in any way. At least I hope not  Gentleman's game, right? I don't want to stress anymore about. I can PM you my ph # if you'd like to talk anytime. Anytime let's say withing the next 6 months LoL Seems I've got cancer with the clock ticking Its all context. Your the same guy who earlier said: " i don't get the fuss about the handicap system? Why? How does it hurt you?
i taking my clubs and leaving if this becomes a handicap tour. Really?"I'm on the outside looking in, but your remarks on a handicap system + your remarks about practice, players stuck on the bottom, etc. and its pretty clear to me why you might be ducking a few arrows. |
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Post by mcbogga on Feb 22, 2015 23:08:59 GMT -5
This is going to sound arrogant, and I really don't mean it to, but all this complaining about high scores from people who aren't even making consistent cuts in their respective tours reeks of sour grapes, not a genuine desire to see the game become more sim-like in execution. When I hear someone like Doyley, Lillico, or Harris make these assertions, I'll listen - because I know the level of their play and how much they practice. When I hear it from people outside the top 100, it tells me you'd rather bring the field back to your game, not elevate your own. I thought I'd stay out of commenting more on this thread, but just think this is completely missing the point. Matt puts it better than I ever could, so please read carefully what he is saying. If this game is supposed to be "simulation sports" then having all these scores in the 50s IS borderline disrepectful to the game of golf. But this is a purist sim opinion, and people have every right to think that -18 should be par for the course. The real issue that we will face unless difficulty is ramped is field compression and "maxed out scores" due to the game being just a bit too easy to "master" and regardless of the sim argument there is an issue brewing here. As for your other argument - understandable that people associated with TGCT needs to stay out of giving opinions on this thread. But - you might want to think about that Doyley previously ran a "true sim" tour, have been vocal about increasing penalties on mis-hits over at the HB forum and now has a twitch series where he plays without aids and even no follow cam. Lillico has commented that the course difficulty needs to be ramped up in several threads elsewhere I think and even modified his course to try to get one that protects par... Doyley has alredy given the official stance on this, and it is a perfectly understandable one as the community is divided. I hope more and more people will swing to the sim side to allow TGCT to implement some changes, but no right or wrong really and right now the opinion is firmly on the arcade side. |
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Post by Niborak/JohnDaddyo on Feb 22, 2015 23:56:27 GMT -5
"Honestly don't concern yourself on how other people twist your words to make their argument seem valid. Honestly, people troll for the sole purpose to troll, why cause they can! Keep your head up high."
Brighttail, thanks for the words of support. Much appreciated.
John
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Post by DaveC_87 on Feb 23, 2015 10:12:37 GMT -5
just a thought, and no way I can prove this: but Im going out on a leg and saying it anyways, take the top 100 players in the WGC, look at each of their total rounds played on TGC for their career, and then look at the rest of the field in the same light, then you will see why the top players are sitting up where they are for the most part, and the bottom players where they are, for the most part, sure there will be exceptions along the way, like a player who is new but really understands what the deal is, or a player who has been here since day one and still struggles with the fundamentals. the best way to even the field, is for everyone to simply play more, practice more, learn more, and get better over time. if we all played this tour for the next 5 years on a regular basis, id be willing to bet the PGA top to bottom would be a powerhouse of top players, where the cut line could be missed by anyone week in and week out. The thing is, and I could be wrong, some of us don't care about evening the playing field. Some of us just look at the 50's shooting...and want it to be more realistic. I'd really be curious to see how these top 100 players would play with the green scout on (no landing area) and green grids off. Would they still be just as elite? Who knows. There is too much resistance to ever know, and it's a shame. I agree 100%. I cannot believe that there are so few people unhappy with the ridiculous scores. I understand that this is a video game, but there are few people who want to play "sim" like (no aids). We are all different and our perspective on this game and tournaments vary from person to person, but for me, I feel WAY better and have much more fun scoring a -2 in a round of no aids than scoring a -12 in a round with all aids. |
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Post by Pubknight on Feb 23, 2015 10:38:43 GMT -5
From my perspective, I would just keep it simple:
Remove the wind meter.
There is a setting so you can see the direction, but not the actual mph reading.
That in and of itself removes a lot of ability to 'dial in' a distance, which necessitates a different approach to shots.
For example, right now a tucked pin into a strong headwind is a very easy shot.
It shouldn't be.
It should be a big gut check.
And without hard wind speed numbers to calculate a distance, most players would take a more conservative approach.
That leads to less 2' birdie putts.
It seems apparent that round by round winds will be coming.
And I see that as an opportunity.
With round by round winds (on HBs end), remove the wind meter.
Wind is a huge variable in real golf, and you have to allow for a greater margin of error.
Here, wind is just one more line in the equation.
It's not meant to be a calculated variable the way it is now.
It's meant to be a 'margin for error' adjustment.
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Post by Doyley on Feb 23, 2015 10:50:31 GMT -5
From my perspective, I would just keep it simple: Remove the wind meter. It would be the easiest aid to remove as it's one of the easiest to deal without. You know the direction and all it takes is one shot to figure out the general strength - which can be guesstimated on the first tee with audio cues and looking at the trees (or the flag if you are so inclined to go that far up the course). The trick is to stay on top of it as it fluctuates and adjust your game. Gives me an idea for next week that I might try out - running a second tournament during the WGC (for fun, 2 rounds) with wind set off so that people that are interested can play it and compare their scores. Wouldn't even consider implementing this until HB locked in similar winds per rounds for everyone - but it would be interesting to see how much scores dropped. My guess is that it would drop everyone 3 or 4 shots. |
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xusemagru
Weekend Golfer
Posts: 115 
TGCT Name: Ryan O'Donnell
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Post by xusemagru on Feb 23, 2015 11:18:03 GMT -5
The thing is, and I could be wrong, some of us don't care about evening the playing field. Some of us just look at the 50's shooting...and want it to be more realistic. I'd really be curious to see how these top 100 players would play with the green scout on (no landing area) and green grids off. Would they still be just as elite? Who knows. There is too much resistance to ever know, and it's a shame. Does this exist? meaning are their tours out there that play this way? i would give it a shot to see how i score. I do think wind meter off would be the way to go once they fix the wind waiting |
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Post by Matt10 on Feb 23, 2015 14:39:45 GMT -5
The thing is, and I could be wrong, some of us don't care about evening the playing field. Some of us just look at the 50's shooting...and want it to be more realistic. I'd really be curious to see how these top 100 players would play with the green scout on (no landing area) and green grids off. Would they still be just as elite? Who knows. There is too much resistance to ever know, and it's a shame. Does this exist? meaning are their tours out there that play this way? i would give it a shot to see how i score. I do think wind meter off would be the way to go once they fix the wind waiting I'm pretty sure I saw a couple that were on there. The problem is they just aren't run like TGCT is. I think a lot of us would love to have our cake and eat it too. Here is a video that uses all aides off, except for wind and green scout cam. I sucked it up - but if an elite player can play like this, and put up a decent score - only then will I consider them an "elite" player. This was a joy to play, because it was actual golf, not mindless thumb movements and button mashing. Round took 30 mins, maybe 45 if I had taken my time on a couple more shots like in a tourney. |
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Post by pillowofsoft on Feb 24, 2015 18:41:53 GMT -5
Not sure if it has been suggested but I wondered if scores might go up if the future courses weren't announced quite so far in advance? This would reduce the amount of practice time available, something I presume is limited on the actual tours while not effecting anyone directly. Potentially players could be informed the week before? Few days before? I appreciate this might effect people who decide where they are playing based on what course it is and also people like me who enjoy practicing a couple of nights a week with friends, there might be additional flaws in my idea but it was just a thought that popped into my head and I thought I'd post it see what everyone else thinks. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2015 21:26:20 GMT -5
Give me 1 PGA tournament, 2 weeks to prepare the course and 2 weeks for people to practice. Here is what I suspect I could do. The overall winning score would be in the 30's. The cut would be -10 or -11 and the mean score of those missing the cut would be evenish par. That's a 30 stroke difference from top to bottom. That IMHO is far different than the present 52 stroke difference. But I guess it will never happen I will never know for sure.
The present mean of those missing the cut is about -4. I believe I could make these changes with minimal impact on those players and maximum impact on top players.
I just found this tonight found this from CLV, This is what I'm talking about a difficult course, hard to birdie, but possible, easy to par. I will note it took him 9 minutes longer to play this course then all the other ones, it obviously had his full attention. |
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Post by Niborak/JohnDaddyo on Feb 25, 2015 15:39:35 GMT -5
Would the consistent 'Elite' players think of it as a 'punishment' if their tour was with all aids off?
Then, add an aide as you went down in each tour? Ending with the Champions Tour with all aides on?
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Post by Brighttail on Feb 25, 2015 15:46:01 GMT -5
Would the consistent 'Elite' players think of it as a 'punishment' if their tour was with all aids off? Then, add an aide as you went down in each tour? Ending with the Champions Tour with all aides on? That is a very interesting way of handicapping, but I doubt it would ever be approved. Doyley says with all aids off he is somewhere between +3 and -7. We'd have to keep track cause a mediocre players would shoot -10 and next time what would their handicap be? Too much work. |
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Post by Niborak/JohnDaddyo on Feb 25, 2015 15:52:36 GMT -5
You're probably right. Plus i still think we're some time away, graphics wish where you can really see a 3 dimensional
picture. Especially with the greens. I, for one would not be able to play without a green grid.
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Post by mcbogga on Feb 25, 2015 18:53:28 GMT -5
Would the consistent 'Elite' players think of it as a 'punishment' if their tour was with all aids off? Then, add an aide as you went down in each tour? Ending with the Champions Tour with all aides on? Excuse me - but isn't this the exact point I made earlier in the thread and that you argued against? Great that your thinking is coming around, though. And Brighttail - how are handicaps at all related to this? If this is simulating the "pro tour" then handicaps are the last thing that should be a consideration. We play scratch on here.... Will it "mess up" you handicap in game - sure. But does that really matter? Either way TGCT has nothing to do with the handicaps, its all HB. |
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Post by mcbogga on Feb 25, 2015 19:02:59 GMT -5
Give me 1 PGA tournament, 2 weeks to prepare the course and 2 weeks for people to practice. Here is what I suspect I could do. The overall winning score would be in the 30's. The cut would be -10 or -11 and the mean score of those missing the cut would be evenish par. That's a 30 stroke difference from top to bottom. That IMHO is far different than the present 52 stroke difference. But I guess it will never happen I will never know for sure.
The present mean of those missing the cut is about -4. I believe I could make these changes with minimal impact on those players and maximum impact on top players.
I just found this tonight found this from CLV, This is what I'm talking about a difficult course, hard to birdie, but possible, easy to par. I will note it took him 9 minutes longer to play this course then all the other ones, it obviously had his full attention. Steve - the lumpy greens are great to present an interresting math problem for grid play. But it is one concept, and I think it must be used in moderation or it becomes gimmicky. Also courses built like this are very tricky to play with aids off. A couple of holes - great. But it should not be on 80% of courses 80% of the time, and not to much lumps around the hole (6 feet o so)..... IMHO. I blatantly stole your idea and "supercharged" it on my showcase "Prototype Links" though - together with some other ideas for protecting par - so this is in no way a critisism. Just saying that there is not one way, needs to be a bix. |
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