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Post by Brighttail on Feb 25, 2015 19:27:25 GMT -5
Would the consistent 'Elite' players think of it as a 'punishment' if their tour was with all aids off? Then, add an aide as you went down in each tour? Ending with the Champions Tour with all aides on? Excuse me - but isn't this the exact point I made earlier in the thread and that you argued against? Great that your thinking is coming around, though. And Brighttail - how are handicaps at all related to this? If this is simulating the "pro tour" then handicaps are the last thing that should be a consideration. We play scratch on here.... Will it "mess up" you handicap in game - sure. But does that really matter? Either way TGCT has nothing to do with the handicaps, its all HB. My point was... it would be a pain in the arse for the administrators to keep this all straight... A tour with no aids, a tour with only grids, A tour with grids and scout cam only. Then when do you have someone move from one tour to another? In the end if the "elite" tour was no aids whatsoever you might have 20-40 people play in it. We have seen what happens when all those are taken away. Doyley himself has had people drop out after a few weeks. So you add one for the elite tour, which one? In the end I know I wouldn't play on it even if i qualified cause that isn't fun for me. I don't need the challenge. So what you are talking about is a small number of folks that you are taking away aids from to make it fair to others. THAT is a handicap system. Whether you have multiple tours or not. |
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Post by Niborak/JohnDaddyo on Feb 25, 2015 19:36:46 GMT -5
when I feel better I'll do the research but again, you're misquoting.
" i don't get the fuss about the handicap system? Why? How does it hurt you?
i taking my clubs and leaving if this becomes a handicap tour. Really?"
The word really is the only thing I said out of the quote you attributed to me.
I could be wrong.
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Post by Niborak/JohnDaddyo on Feb 25, 2015 19:43:42 GMT -5
"I'm on the outside looking in, but your remarks on a handicap system + your remarks about practice, players stuck on the bottom, etc. and its pretty clear to me why you might be ducking a few arrows."
Ducking arrows are you serious? That's two kids, guys, whatever in the same post using their keyboards as a mouthpiece to flame people.
ASS-uming mods read most posts, I saddened to see no one has stepped forward.
you also never understood, nor did you ask me for further clarification of what I mean. I can only believe you never bothered because you chose to go down what you think is the safe path and try and jump on some tiny, meaningless band wagon
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IlludiumQ36
Weekend Golfer
Posts: 122 
TGCT Name: Tom Morgan
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Post by IlludiumQ36 on Feb 25, 2015 20:16:44 GMT -5
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2015 22:03:05 GMT -5
Give me 1 PGA tournament, 2 weeks to prepare the course and 2 weeks for people to practice. Here is what I suspect I could do. The overall winning score would be in the 30's. The cut would be -10 or -11 and the mean score of those missing the cut would be evenish par. That's a 30 stroke difference from top to bottom. That IMHO is far different than the present 52 stroke difference. But I guess it will never happen I will never know for sure.
The present mean of those missing the cut is about -4. I believe I could make these changes with minimal impact on those players and maximum impact on top players.
I just found this tonight found this from CLV, This is what I'm talking about a difficult course, hard to birdie, but possible, easy to par. I will note it took him 9 minutes longer to play this course then all the other ones, it obviously had his full attention. Steve - the lumpy greens are great to present an interresting math problem for grid play. But it is one concept, and I think it must be used in moderation or it becomes gimmicky. Also courses built like this are very tricky to play with aids off. A couple of holes - great. But it should not be on 80% of courses 80% of the time, and not to much lumps around the hole (6 feet o so)..... IMHO. I blatantly stole your idea and "supercharged" it on my showcase "Prototype Links" though - together with some other ideas for protecting par - so this is in no way a critisism. Just saying that there is not one way, needs to be a bix. I agree with you however there is no way this tours will ever switch to all aids off, that's dreaming in Technicolor. A decision I agree with, as the only reason anyone is suggesting all aids off is their belief by bringing in more luck then there already is will produce better results for them. I was only suggesting but 1 way to lower scores without being penal to everyone, it's falling on deaf ears, that's fine, it should not matter to me, so I'm going to stop having it matter to me.
I do not mind playing with all aids off occasionally to switch things up, but it is weird. I do not play RL golf not knowing any information. I think people will be happier when they get their TW golf back, then they can get back to their flaming golf balls etc, for now I find plenty of challenge in this game, I'm still not on top of any leaderboards, so I still have plenty of work to do to worry about anything else.
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Post by mcbogga on Feb 25, 2015 22:25:24 GMT -5
Illudium, yeah! Even quicker than I expected when posting.... Niborak - I think we are done with each other. Taking it further will not be productive and I am sorry that I wrote another post directed towards you. Clearly a waste of my time (like hanging around video game forums is not to begin with...  ). BT - from a set up point of view it would be same as today - only that the guys that set up the tournaments in game would put different settings for different tours. From a support and explanation point of view you are correct, I can see that being a bit difficult with people being confused. Thanks for clarifying. I am aware that we have very different opinions on what is fun in the game. You want "perfection" as well as a 1-1 ratio of input to output. I want something more random that feels like the real game. Both are perfectly fine opinions. Was trying to elevate the discussion above opinions with the talk about "compresion", but maybe I am unclear in my message. Also dont understand your reasoning about taking away aids for some to make it fair to others? Everyone in one tour would play the exact same set up. Perfectly fair. Where is the value of comparing scores between tours? If you take that line of thought further we should have all tours play the same course every week as well. I will state my point again. As more people master the mechanics we will start to see "maxed out" scores. When that happens, the difference between 1st and 25th will become one or two missed putts over 72 holes. No separation at all. Therefore the top tiers must evolve into a game with more variance. Time will prove me right or wrong. Either way the guys who run the tours will follow majority opinion on this, as they should. If they switch cold turkey to no aids exactly what you say will happen - mass exodus. So - their handling of this thread and issue is exemplary so far. I do hope we will see the some trials with some assists off and then a gradual acceptance. Also BT - have you spent any actual time playing with aids off? You might actually find it just as skill based, but with more depth to dig into and master... If you have not - please try a couple of rounds, for example on the "No TRAINING WHEELS" tour, and check out the ghosts of some of the guys. Heard Bluorfe just shot a -30 over 4 rounds at the Vallee with assists off, so in fact the game may still be too easy. I was also sceptical to this no aids thing, but now am a full convert. |
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Post by mcbogga on Feb 25, 2015 22:40:20 GMT -5
Steve - the lumpy greens are great to present an interresting math problem for grid play. But it is one concept, and I think it must be used in moderation or it becomes gimmicky. Also courses built like this are very tricky to play with aids off. A couple of holes - great. But it should not be on 80% of courses 80% of the time, and not to much lumps around the hole (6 feet o so)..... IMHO. I blatantly stole your idea and "supercharged" it on my showcase "Prototype Links" though - together with some other ideas for protecting par - so this is in no way a critisism. Just saying that there is not one way, needs to be a bix. I agree with you however there is no way this tours will ever switch to all aids off, that's dreaming in Technicolor. A decision I agree with, as the only reason anyone is suggesting all aids off is their belief by bringing in more luck then there already is will produce better results for them. I was only suggesting but 1 way to lower scores without being penal to everyone, it's falling on deaf ears, that's fine, it should not matter to me, so I'm going to stop having it matter to me.
I do not mind playing with all aids off occasionally to switch things up, but it is weird. I do not play RL golf not knowing any information. I think people will be happier when they get their TW golf back, then they can get back to their flaming golf balls etc, for now I find plenty of challenge in this game, I'm still not on top of any leaderboards, so I still have plenty of work to do to worry about anything else.
Tricky greens is one way to challenge the players, and I like what you did! Good course as well! Dreaming. Isn't that pretty much the whole premise of this web-site anyway, dreaming of pro tours? Agree that the best balance may not be all aids off for TGCT, but I for sure do not think it is all aids on. More luck = better results is just flawed thinking, and please do not put that label on everyone with the "no aids" opinion. Anyway the luck component in no aids play is rather limited and the best players will dominate just as well as they do today. Especially over 4 rounds. Hopefully with a bit more variance and realistic looking scores however. |
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Post by Brighttail on Feb 25, 2015 22:48:37 GMT -5
I've been playing Magnolia and I tell you from a stand point of tricky greens, this one is the hardest I've played in a while. Missing a four foot putt by lipping it on the edge then having it roll down 20 feet off the green is most definitely challenging. Chipping from 7 yards out you either have to drain it or play it short with a lot more break, else you are once again 20 feet + out.
I agree with you tho, more challenging greens with fast greens AND when they can set winds in tourneys will be probably the best way to make courses more challenging.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2015 23:48:59 GMT -5
I've been playing Magnolia and I tell you from a stand point of tricky greens, this one is the hardest I've played in a while. Missing a four foot putt by lipping it on the edge then having it roll down 20 feet off the green is most definitely challenging. Chipping from 7 yards out you either have to drain it or play it short with a lot more break, else you are once again 20 feet + out. I agree with you tho, more challenging greens with fast greens AND when they can set winds in tourneys will be probably the best way to make courses more challenging. That's what I think as well having played a crap load of courses, the challenge is going to come from the courses eventually. It can be done, it will be done, and then people will be looking for more aids. 
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Post by mcbogga on Feb 26, 2015 0:43:49 GMT -5
I agree as well on the courses - just want those courses to be realistic as well. I want it all - in technicolor...
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Post by fondername0 on Feb 26, 2015 11:32:39 GMT -5
I've been playing Magnolia and I tell you from a stand point of tricky greens, this one is the hardest I've played in a while. Missing a four foot putt by lipping it on the edge then having it roll down 20 feet off the green is most definitely challenging. Chipping from 7 yards out you either have to drain it or play it short with a lot more break, else you are once again 20 feet + out. I agree with you tho, more challenging greens with fast greens AND when they can set winds in tourneys will be probably the best way to make courses more challenging. Yes, that is what I have been trying to say. No matter how easy the HB game engine is, designers have a powerful way to toughen their courses. Make the greens hard. Don't be scared of slope and break. Get rid of the flat and almost flat putts. And use the firmness, crank it up. I used to live on a course that hosts a Web.com event. They were out of there by 7 p.m. Sunday night and I would go out and mess around behind my house. Those greens were firm as hell. 4 or 5 times firmer (and fast!!!) than what we played as members on any given weekend. |
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