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Post by joegolferg on Jul 18, 2019 3:24:39 GMT -5
My home course, Blowing Rock CC, was thought to be a Donakd Ross until we discovered its actulaay a Raynor design. The back tees are only 6200 yds but for a golfer like me who doesn’t crush th ball, it’s a joy ro play. It’s a Raynor masterpiece in my opinion. Thanks for that. Looking forward to hopefully digging up some more information about the course. 👍 |
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Post by gamesdecent on Jul 18, 2019 8:34:53 GMT -5
My home course, Blowing Rock CC, was thought to be a Donakd Ross until we discovered its actulaay a Raynor design. The back tees are only 6200 yds but for a golfer like me who doesn’t crush th ball, it’s a joy ro play. It’s a Raynor masterpiece in my opinion. Thanks for that. Looking forward to hopefully digging up some more information about the course. 👍 Just from looking at how the course is routed, the shapes of everything, etc. I would be surprised if it was a Raynor. I know he got down to Chattanooga and routed Lookout Mountain, but I think that's more of a Banks course isn't it? I guess he could've made a stop in Blowing Rock NC, but it's out in the middle of nowhere. I'm a little skeptical, honestly. Obviously, all of the course could've been changed between now and then multiple times over, but just on first glance at the overhead, it looks MUCH more like a Ross design than a Raynor in my opinion. |
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Post by joegolferg on Jul 18, 2019 9:42:48 GMT -5
Thoroughly enjoying this little investigation and I think I've come to my own conclusion... I'll post it up pretty soon.
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Post by b101 on Jul 18, 2019 10:40:33 GMT -5
A couple of photos of the Maiden (par three 6th) hole at Royal St George’s after my rounds there over the last two days. Played off member’s tees on the first day and it was a gentle pitching wedge before hitting a low four iron from the championship tee today. Really cool hole - they have changed the orientation of the bunker on the right to face the centre of the green ahead of the Open in 2020, as it previously faced the top tier only. Tried to get you a picture with an idea of the green contours - there are some bold, bold slopes on this course... The green is also angled - your approach comes in over the front right bunker in the first picture   |
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Post by joegolferg on Jul 18, 2019 10:43:02 GMT -5
Much like you, Brian, I too believed this course to be a Ross over a Raynor at first glance and then I saw an old/restored picture of the Eden hole. There is already what was a pure Redan on the course (hole 2) that seems to have had its bunkering removed (committee obviously had no idea what a Redan was all about) When did Ross ever build a full course with two PURE par three templates that resembled Raynor's work through the detail? I say this because the existing/old Eden at Blowing Rock is one of the most faithful renditions I've ever seen. The only missing is the 'shelly' bunker, but the route to play the hole on the ground (with a putter) is completely blocked by the stream that runs through the course, something that Macdonald and Raynor almost always did as CB often complained about you could play the original Eden using just a putter. I very much doubt that Ross would have built an Eden with that in mind.
Now, hopefully we can get clarification from the original poster of this information on which of these two holes exists today, I'm guessing the Eden has been destroyed in favour of the semi island par three. Here are the pictures...
The Eden hole
The not so Eden hole - the hole to the right.
Also to mention, and what is quite visible in the pictures, is the shaping of the green pads and slopes, they have most certainly been built with that trademark Raynor look which takes a lot of Steamshovel work. Ross did do this, too, but nowhere near as brazen. This course features some very, very geometrically shaped bunkers, Ross shapes were more like Banks, straight and soft, not sharp.
Now for a little bit of history on the property the course is built on. The land to build the course was purchased by the founders from a bloke named Rufus Patterson. Patterson had previously bought land from a very close friend of CB Macdonald - Jos P Knapp. This property later became the Seth Raynor designed Southampton CC. And so through that connection I think it's pretty obvious that Patterson had recommended or even introduced Raynor to the new owners of the land up in NC, as there intentions from the beginning was to build a golf course. According to Bahto and Anthony Pioppi a nine hole course was built on that property by Seth Raynor and it was known as Green Park - Norwood.
Fast forward to 1922 and it is believed that Ross came in and added an extra nine holes plus extra touches to the original nine. Just a year later Raynor is hired to come back in and yet again do another redesign over the previous Ross effort. Despite this many believe the redesign was never completed by Raynor himself for unknown reasons (most probably weather damage) but it is very possible that Banks finally stepped up to the task when he was in Statesville (close proximity) designing a course of his own.
I'm certain since then the club has brought in other architects to touch up the course and the biggest evidence of this is the curly bunkers, lost mowing lines (some visible on maps) and the added brick walls etc. There's no doubt that there are original Raynor holes on this course but nobody really knows how many.
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Post by joegolferg on Jul 18, 2019 10:48:53 GMT -5
A couple of photos of the Maiden (par three 6th) hole at Royal St George’s after my rounds there over the last two days. Played off member’s tees on the first day and it was a gentle pitching wedge before hitting a low four iron from the championship tee today. Really cool hole - they have changed the orientation of the bunker on the right to face the centre of the green ahead of the Open in 2020, as it previously faced the top tier only. Tried to get you a picture with an idea of the green contours - there are some bold, bold slopes on this course... The green is also angled - your approach comes in over the front right bunker in the first picture Can definitely see the contouring, amazing to think that it has been like that since day one. Is that first picture comimg off the the tee? Do you play to the hole that way? |
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Post by b101 on Jul 18, 2019 11:49:41 GMT -5
A couple of photos of the Maiden (par three 6th) hole at Royal St George’s after my rounds there over the last two days. Played off member’s tees on the first day and it was a gentle pitching wedge before hitting a low four iron from the championship tee today. Really cool hole - they have changed the orientation of the bunker on the right to face the centre of the green ahead of the Open in 2020, as it previously faced the top tier only. Tried to get you a picture with an idea of the green contours - there are some bold, bold slopes on this course... The green is also angled - your approach comes in over the front right bunker in the first picture Can definitely see the contouring, amazing to think that it has been like that since day one. Is that first picture comimg off the the tee? Do you play to the hole that way? The first picture is the walk so - you tend to play foursomes at RSG so I had gone ahead whilst my partner teed off. That photo is from the left (about at a 30 degree angle from where you would tee off. From the back tees it is a properly daunting shot over those bunkers to a tiny section of green. Thought I’d nailed mine and found the front bunker. It’s a really enjoyable course - I’ll find a few more pictures for the bold contours thread. |
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Post by gamesdecent on Jul 18, 2019 12:37:45 GMT -5
Much like you, Brian, I too believed this course to be a Ross over a Raynor at first glance and then I saw an old/restored picture of the Eden hole. There is already what was a pure Redan on the course (hole 2) that seems to have had its bunkering removed (committee obviously had no idea what a Redan was all about) When did Ross ever build a full course with two PURE par three templates that resembled Raynor's work through the detail? I say this because the existing/old Eden at Blowing Rock is one of the most faithful renditions I've ever seen. The only missing is the 'shelly' bunker, but the route to play the hole on the ground (with a putter) is completely blocked by the stream that runs through the course, something that Macdonald and Raynor almost always did as CB often complained about you could play the original Eden using just a putter. I very much doubt that Ross would have built an Eden with that in mind. Now, hopefully we can get clarification from the original poster of this information on which of these two holes exists today, I'm guessing the Eden has been destroyed in favour of the semi island par three. Here are the pictures... The Eden hole The not so Eden hole - the hole to the right. Also to mention, and what is quite visible in the pictures, is the shaping of the green pads and slopes, they have most certainly been built with that trademark Raynor look which takes a lot of Steamshovel work. Ross did do this, too, but nowhere near as brazen. This course features some very, very geometrically shaped bunkers, Ross shapes were more like Banks, straight and soft, not sharp. Now for a little bit of history on the property the course is built on. The land to build the course was purchased by the founders from a bloke named Rufus Patterson. Patterson had previously bought land from a very close friend of CB Macdonald - Jos P Knapp. This property later became the Seth Raynor designed Southampton CC. And so through that connection I think it's pretty obvious that Patterson had recommended or even introduced Raynor to the new owners of the land up in NC, as there intentions from the beginning was to build a golf course. According to Bahto and Anthony Pioppi a nine hole course was built on that property by Seth Raynor and it was known as Green Park - Norwood. Fast forward to 1922 and it is believed that Ross came in and added an extra nine holes plus extra touches to the original nine. Just a year later Raynor is hired to come back in and yet again do another redesign over the previous Ross effort. Despite this many believe the redesign was never completed by Raynor himself for unknown reasons (most probably weather damage) but it is very possible that Banks finally stepped up to the task when he was in Statesville (close proximity) designing a course of his own. I'm certain since then the club has brought in other architects to touch up the course and the biggest evidence of this is the curly bunkers, lost mowing lines (some visible on maps) and the added brick walls etc. There's no doubt that there are original Raynor holes on this course but nobody really knows how many. I agree, the par 3's would be the tell for whether it's a Raynor. The current Google overhead is from 2013 and it looks pretty much the same on Google Earth going all the way back to 1994, so I wouldn't be surprised if that Eden is a recent renovation and the way it is currently. #15 is about the right distance for a biarritz. I can't find many pics or hole-by-hole info at all though in my quick lunch break search. The site itself looks magnificent in terms of elevation changes. It would be awesome to pull the LIDAR and try and pick out the templates just from the way the holes are laid on the terrain. EDIT: joegolferg Looks like Kris Spence redid #11-14 in 2016-17 in order to ADD Raynor features where there weren’t any previously, which includes that Eden you posted. www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/kris-spence-to-add-raynor-flavour-to-four-holes-at-blowing-rock |
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Post by deaconstar003 on Jul 18, 2019 21:58:48 GMT -5
Much like you, Brian, I too believed this course to be a Ross over a Raynor at first glance and then I saw an old/restored picture of the Eden hole. There is already what was a pure Redan on the course (hole 2) that seems to have had its bunkering removed (committee obviously had no idea what a Redan was all about) When did Ross ever build a full course with two PURE par three templates that resembled Raynor's work through the detail? I say this because the existing/old Eden at Blowing Rock is one of the most faithful renditions I've ever seen. The only missing is the 'shelly' bunker, but the route to play the hole on the ground (with a putter) is completely blocked by the stream that runs through the course, something that Macdonald and Raynor almost always did as CB often complained about you could play the original Eden using just a putter. I very much doubt that Ross would have built an Eden with that in mind. Now, hopefully we can get clarification from the original poster of this information on which of these two holes exists today, I'm guessing the Eden has been destroyed in favour of the semi island par three. Here are the pictures... The Eden hole The not so Eden hole - the hole to the right. Also to mention, and what is quite visible in the pictures, is the shaping of the green pads and slopes, they have most certainly been built with that trademark Raynor look which takes a lot of Steamshovel work. Ross did do this, too, but nowhere near as brazen. This course features some very, very geometrically shaped bunkers, Ross shapes were more like Banks, straight and soft, not sharp. Now for a little bit of history on the property the course is built on. The land to build the course was purchased by the founders from a bloke named Rufus Patterson. Patterson had previously bought land from a very close friend of CB Macdonald - Jos P Knapp. This property later became the Seth Raynor designed Southampton CC. And so through that connection I think it's pretty obvious that Patterson had recommended or even introduced Raynor to the new owners of the land up in NC, as there intentions from the beginning was to build a golf course. According to Bahto and Anthony Pioppi a nine hole course was built on that property by Seth Raynor and it was known as Green Park - Norwood. Fast forward to 1922 and it is believed that Ross came in and added an extra nine holes plus extra touches to the original nine. Just a year later Raynor is hired to come back in and yet again do another redesign over the previous Ross effort. Despite this many believe the redesign was never completed by Raynor himself for unknown reasons (most probably weather damage) but it is very possible that Banks finally stepped up to the task when he was in Statesville (close proximity) designing a course of his own. I'm certain since then the club has brought in other architects to touch up the course and the biggest evidence of this is the curly bunkers, lost mowing lines (some visible on maps) and the added brick walls etc. There's no doubt that there are original Raynor holes on this course but nobody really knows how many. I agree, the par 3's would be the tell for whether it's a Raynor. The current Google overhead is from 2013 and it looks pretty much the same on Google Earth going all the way back to 1994, so I wouldn't be surprised if that Eden is a recent renovation and the way it is currently. #15 is about the right distance for a biarritz. I can't find many pics or hole-by-hole info at all though in my quick lunch break search. The site itself looks magnificent in terms of elevation changes. It would be awesome to pull the LIDAR and try and pick out the templates just from the way the holes are laid on the terrain. EDIT: joegolferg Looks like Kris Spence redid #11-14 in 2016-17 in order to ADD Raynor features where there weren’t any previously, which includes that Eden you posted. www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/kris-spence-to-add-raynor-flavour-to-four-holes-at-blowing-rockAll of what has been discussed here I agree with, but also hole 2 had a bunker added a year or so ago whichis protected by a rock feature. I am going to post the scorecard as well. Also here is a link to the updated satellite imagery. tax.watgov.org/WataugaNC/maps/mapadv.aspx |
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Post by deaconstar003 on Jul 18, 2019 22:06:44 GMT -5
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Post by linkslover on Jul 19, 2019 6:17:50 GMT -5
How much is Royal St George's to play?
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Post by b101 on Jul 20, 2019 3:38:59 GMT -5
How much is Royal St George's to play? Depends when you go - if you play in winter, it’s fairly reasonable, but up to £200 in the summer, so comparable with other Open venues. I played as a match against the club so was lucky to have a much better rate. Well worth it either way though IMO. |
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Post by linkslover on Jul 22, 2019 2:58:24 GMT -5
So you have to pay even if you're playing against them in a match? That's a piss take.
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Post by b101 on Jul 22, 2019 6:50:29 GMT -5
So you have to pay even if you're playing against them in a match? That's a piss take. Pretty normal for a society that can't offer a return fixture |
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Post by linkslover on Jul 22, 2019 7:43:39 GMT -5
Oh, when you said match I thought you meant a club friendly or league match. That's fair enough then.
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