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Post by joegolferg on Nov 23, 2020 15:17:29 GMT -5
Eden?   Hmmmmm I see the sentiment but it doesn't hold enough of the Eden features for me to call it an Eden. |
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Post by tpetro on Nov 23, 2020 17:23:24 GMT -5
Eden? Hmmmmm I see the sentiment but it doesn't hold enough of the Eden features for me to call it an Eden. MPCC (Dunes) Hole 10. Original Raynor design so looks like it used to be an Eden or Redan before they gave Rees Jones carte blanche with Raynor's routing and let him screw up the whole thing. Imagine if MPCC had a Raynor and a Strantz on that incredible piece of property? Christ that would be a legendary club. But no, it's just a boring Rees Jones mess. |
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Post by mvpmanatee on Nov 23, 2020 21:40:08 GMT -5
Hmmmmm I see the sentiment but it doesn't hold enough of the Eden features for me to call it an Eden. MPCC (Dunes) Hole 10. Original Raynor design so looks like it used to be an Eden or Redan before they gave Rees Jones carte blanche with Raynor's routing and let him screw up the whole thing. Imagine if MPCC had a Raynor and a Strantz on that incredible piece of property? Christ that would be a legendary club. But no, it's just a boring Rees Jones mess. I would like to say that I have played both MPCC dunes and shore quite recently and the dunes course is really an amazing track. It might not hold the architectural value of some but it truly is a fun round of golf, no bad holes. |
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Post by tpetro on Nov 23, 2020 21:45:34 GMT -5
MPCC (Dunes) Hole 10. Original Raynor design so looks like it used to be an Eden or Redan before they gave Rees Jones carte blanche with Raynor's routing and let him screw up the whole thing. Imagine if MPCC had a Raynor and a Strantz on that incredible piece of property? Christ that would be a legendary club. But no, it's just a boring Rees Jones mess. I would like to say that I have played both MPCC dunes and shore quite recently and the dunes course is really an amazing track. It might not hold the architectural value of some but it truly is a fun round of golf, no bad holes. Yeah I watched a video on Dunes the other day and it does look like Jackson-Kahn did a good job of bringing Rees' old tabletop greens and awkward features back down to ground level and nailing the Mackenzie/Hunter bunkering. Would be cool if it were a Raynor - you could make the case that it's the best piece of land he ever got to work with - but it really never got to be due to his passing away right after he drafted the plans, so who knows. |
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Post by mvpmanatee on Nov 23, 2020 21:57:34 GMT -5
I would like to say that I have played both MPCC dunes and shore quite recently and the dunes course is really an amazing track. It might not hold the architectural value of some but it truly is a fun round of golf, no bad holes. Yeah I watched a video on Dunes the other day and it does look like Jackson-Kahn did a good job of bringing Rees' old tabletop greens and awkward features back down to ground level and nailing the Mackenzie/Hunter bunkering. Would be cool if it were a Raynor - you could make the case that it's the best piece of land he ever got to work with - but it really never got to be due to his passing away right after he drafted the plans, so who knows. Yeah I agree with that. I never played it before the renovation so I can't say to what it was before but now it really is a good track. Lots of better holes than the Shore in my opinion. |
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Post by abowidow5712 on Dec 29, 2020 12:07:55 GMT -5
The Redan is the best of the template holes because of the strategic options presented to the golfer. It's probably the most copied of the templates. Easily the best type of par 3 hole design in my opinion. There's the other school of thought in golf course architecture that there's only 3 types of holes, Strategic, Penal, and Heroic. The Redan template combines all three most of the time. tpetro don't forget about Cypress Point for Seth Raynor. He died before the course was completed, but Alister MacKenzie chose to use Raynor's original routing. That course would of obviously turned out different if Raynor was in charge of construction, but that location and piece of land is special. He would've turned out another classic. Easily the most underappreciated American architect in my opinion. He seems to just get lumped in with C.B. MacDonald and you can make the case that Raynor was better at the craft. Raynor still to this day has 8 top 100 golf courses he designed/built, 5 of them without MacDonald's help and Cypress Point would've been another one to his credit. In 13 years he designed/built over 100 golf courses. That's very impressive especially considering the quality of courses. |
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Post by abowidow5712 on Dec 29, 2020 12:11:03 GMT -5
And if the golf course at Yale wasn't neglected over the last few years it would be another top 100 course to Raynor's credit.
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Post by b101 on Dec 30, 2020 12:43:07 GMT -5
The Redan is the best of the template holes because of the strategic options presented to the golfer. Interesting. Personal take ahead, so totally discussion-based rather than genuine disagreement. I'd probably argue completely the opposite in that the redan is pretty one-dimensional in a sense of - hit the kicker, but where? In real life, I think it'd be a ton of fun to play, but in TGC, I feel I've seen so many of them, it's dulled things for me. Plus, what twists can you really add that don't take away from that one idea? With a redan, pretty much every attempt I've seen to make it more interesting makes it considerably worse. It is definitely a great hole design, but one I far prefer to utilise on a par four or par five green complex as a way to work around a hazard if you look closely. Fundamentally, I don't like template threes that much in-game. The concepts are great, but they very much are one dimensional, even if they change subtly with pin positions. Again, I definitely think this is a game thing in that we've seen so many of them, but I don't think you can make the template threes your own in the way that you can make template fours or fives individual. Hope this starts a good discussion. This has always been the aspect of template architecture I've struggled to love, so keen to learn a bit more  |
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Post by abowidow5712 on Dec 30, 2020 14:26:35 GMT -5
b101 maybe strategy isn't the best word to use. Options may be better. Something Tiger Woods always talks about is missing in the correct spot. On a Redan hole if you miss in the wrong spot, par is very difficult to make. A great golf hole should reward good shots and penalize bad shots and by design that's exactly what the Redan does. It's tough to mix up strategy for a one shot hole. You can always reverse the angle for a reverse Redan! I am a big fan of the Redan Green being used on par 4's and 5's.
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Post by mvpmanatee on Dec 30, 2020 16:48:38 GMT -5
The Redan is the best of the template holes because of the strategic options presented to the golfer. Interesting. Personal take ahead, so totally discussion-based rather than genuine disagreement. I'd probably argue completely the opposite in that the redan is pretty one-dimensional in a sense of - hit the kicker, but where? In real life, I think it'd be a ton of fun to play, but in TGC, I feel I've seen so many of them, it's dulled things for me. Plus, what twists can you really add that don't take away from that one idea? With a redan, pretty much every attempt I've seen to make it more interesting makes it considerably worse. It is definitely a great hole design, but one I far prefer to utilise on a par four or par five green complex as a way to work around a hazard if you look closely. Fundamentally, I don't like template threes that much in-game. The concepts are great, but they very much are one dimensional, even if they change subtly with pin positions. Again, I definitely think this is a game thing in that we've seen so many of them, but I don't think you can make the template threes your own in the way that you can make template fours or fives individual. EHope this starts a good discussion. This has always been the aspect of template architecture I've struggled to love, so keen to learn a bit more I have always thought Redan to be the most boring concept in the game. Nobody really tries to work the ball left/right in this game as much as they might in real life, and in every wind condition I still find a similar shot to be played. I have always preferred Eden or Short as the only 2 par 3 designs that I really care for, and in any template course in the future I would probably bypass Redan and definitely Biarritz entirely. I have been lucky enough to play a couple of Raynor courses in the East Coast and the Redan is by far the most enjoyable template hole to play (besides the 16th hole at Sleepy Hollow). I also think the only Biarritzs or Redans in the game that are remotely fun are created by joegolferg himself. |
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Post by mvpmanatee on Dec 30, 2020 16:55:17 GMT -5
b101 maybe strategy isn't the best word to use. Options may be better. Something Tiger Woods always talks about is missing in the correct spot. On a Redan hole if you miss in the wrong spot, par is very difficult to make. A great golf hole should reward good shots and penalize bad shots and by design that's exactly what the Redan does. It's tough to mix up strategy for a one shot hole. You can always reverse the angle for a reverse Redan! I am a big fan of the Redan Green being used on par 4's and 5's. By that definition really the best hole should be the Short, no? It is penal it's punishment for every shot. I am also a huge fan of the Redan green on a par 4 or 5. My home course has a short uphill dogleg left par 4 to a Reverse Redan green, and it is my favorite hole on the property! |
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Post by abowidow5712 on Dec 30, 2020 19:52:50 GMT -5
Well from the sound of it mvpmanatee you are a big fan of the Redan template just not in the game. The short hole by design isn't necessarily penal is it? The Redan is. A.W. Tillinghast incorporated a difficult short par 3 on almost all of his designs so I am a big fan of the short par 3 myself. Tilly's my favorite architect. Par 3's are my favorite holes in general. Tillinghast felt that a course’s collection of par 3s was indicative of its quality and I agree. |
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Post by joegolferg on Dec 31, 2020 5:44:27 GMT -5
What Ben said is true, the Redan is heavily 1D in game and I can see how they become monotonous to play for many people. Personally I never get bored of playing that rare amount of ground game that a Redan provides. I think you appreciate the Redan more in game if you build one for yourself and play it over and over to get the perfect tilt of the green and roll of the ball, repeatedly trying to get closer and closer to your tucked pins that are ONLY accessible via the kicker or some well executed shot shaping.
Secondly the Redan, In my opinion, is the best looking par three design out there. I absolutely loved seeing those angled, tilted greens carved into or sitting up on the land and the steep steamshovel grass walls that define it. This is just as much a reason for me to build a Redan on every course I work on as I think it's also an aesthetic winner for those who might appreciate the sculpting and boldness of certain holes.
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Post by joegolferg on Dec 31, 2020 6:26:12 GMT -5
Whilst we're on the subject of Redan holes can we just take a minute to admire how the Old White Redan was routed in front of a hill backdrop so they could mimic it using the kicker slope. You just don't get this sort of stuff nowadays.
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Post by mvpmanatee on Dec 31, 2020 9:09:45 GMT -5
Well from the sound of it mvpmanatee you are a big fan of the Redan template just not in the game. The short hole by design isn't necessarily penal is it? The Redan is. A.W. Tillinghast incorporated a difficult short par 3 on almost all of his designs so I am a big fan of the short par 3 myself. Tilly's my favorite architect. Par 3's are my favorite holes in general. Tillinghast felt that a course’s collection of par 3s was indicative of its quality and I agree. Yes I am a huge Redan fan in real life, but not necessarily in the game. I also don't really see how a Short template is not penal, it is the most true/false shot result in golf. You either do it or you don't, and you are punished if you dont. |
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