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Post by joegolferg on Mar 14, 2019 10:41:44 GMT -5
They weren't really concerned with blending the courses into the natural contours were they? Raynor and Banks were both heavily into the engineering style of course architecture, especially Raynor as his profession before becoming a course architect was a land surveyor. With that said neither of these two shifted anywhere near the amount of turf that modern architects do today, it's just that their "steep and deep" style of bunkering meant that many of their holes were chilesed into the landscape. |
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Post by rjwils30 on Mar 14, 2019 10:56:08 GMT -5
They weren't really concerned with blending the courses into the natural contours were they? In some sense I find these courses look more integrated into their surroundings than many more modern courses with lots of overly sculpted fairways and mounded surrounds. Natural landscapes have abrupt drops and shelf’s and irregularities and I think too many courses keep these elements to the periphery rather than incorporate them into the design. I think this is what make these courses so compelling. |
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Post by joegolferg on Mar 14, 2019 11:06:22 GMT -5
They weren't really concerned with blending the courses into the natural contours were they? In some sense I find these courses look more integrated into their surroundings than many more modern courses with lots of overly sculpted fairways and mounded surrounds. Natural landscapes have abrupt drops and shelf’s and irregularities and I think too many courses keep these elements to the periphery rather than incorporate them into the design. I think this is what make these courses so compelling. 100% agree. But the pictures I've put up so far, except from the Fishers punch bowl, they've all been highly engineered greens. But there are so many excellent and naturally built courses from the template trio and I'm looking forward to posting up some great examples. Shoreacres is a fantastic example of a fully natural Raynor layout that exploits all of the little abrupt drops and nuances of the land that you speak of. Here's the road hole at Shoreacres for example... |
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Post by gamesdecent on Mar 14, 2019 11:38:54 GMT -5
Mackenzie gets all the credit for Cypress Point, but most people don't know that Raynor was the one that initially routed it. You can make a case that the four par 3's are an Eden, a (reverse) Redan, a Short, and that based on the distance and green shape, #16 was supposed to be a Biarritz. They're just sculpted with Mackenzie's bunkering style instead of Raynor's.
I also read something (Shackleford maybe?) about how difficult it would've been to see golf holes where the routing of #7-9 are currently on and around the big dune instead of just turning after #6 and going back toward where #10-11 are currently and putting 4-5 more holes there. It's pretty striking when you see how little space #7-9 take up compared to the rest of the holes that sprawl out pretty wide. Not sure if Mackenzie or Raynor should get the credit there but I would bet that Raynor's original routing was kept largely in tact.
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Post by joegolferg on Mar 14, 2019 12:08:56 GMT -5
I always imagine how Cypress would have turned out if Raynor hadn't of died so young. The routing is basically untouched from its original plan according to Anthony Pioppi, a Raynor historian. I'm not the most knowledgeable on the course, admittedly, but this could have definitely been considered Raynor's masterpiece taking into account the spectacular routing, topography and views. If only...
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Post by gamesdecent on Mar 14, 2019 12:33:15 GMT -5
I always imagine how Cypress would have turned out if Raynor hadn't of died so young. The routing is basically untouched from its original plan according to Anthony Pioppi, a Raynor historian. I'm not the most knowledgeable on the course, admittedly, but this could have definitely been considered Raynor's masterpiece taking into account the spectacular routing, topography and views. If only... Would be REALLY interesting to see if any of the 4s or 5s could match up to templates. I don’t know those as well as the 3s, but #2 is a pretty clear Cape, and #8 feels really Alps-ish to me. If you don’t get all the way down the hill, you’re hitting blind over the dune, and with the green already alongside the dune, all you have to do is build up one side to make it into a punchbowl. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2019 21:25:54 GMT -5
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Post by grovey31 on Mar 14, 2019 23:28:46 GMT -5
I always imagine how Cypress would have turned out if Raynor hadn't of died so young. The routing is basically untouched from its original plan according to Anthony Pioppi, a Raynor historian. I'm not the most knowledgeable on the course, admittedly, but this could have definitely been considered Raynor's masterpiece taking into account the spectacular routing, topography and views. If only... As much as I appreciate and love Raynor, Mackenzie was the only person I could ever see doing Cypress and doing it the way true property deserves. He took advantage of the property better than anyone could have imo. Maybe that’s because I’m not a huge fan of template holes though. Either way, with a Raynor+Mackenzie routing and the Mackenzie flair, it was always going to be spectacular. And as far as “could have been Raynor’s masterpiece”... I think he did pretty alright with Fishers haha Really cool thread/discussion here! |
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Post by joegolferg on Mar 18, 2019 12:20:37 GMT -5
One for the NON geometric fans. How do you like these lines? 😂
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Post by joegolferg on Mar 19, 2019 12:51:02 GMT -5
With regards to the conversation about Raynor's influence on Cypress Point. Here are some details about the original Raynor plans that were allegedly studied in the 1970's by a team of Australian golf historians. Note that no.16 was intended to be a short par four. I wonder if Raynor had a particular template in mind for this 🤔. Looking at the natural contours, sixteen could have been an excellent drivable punch bowl.
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Post by gamesdecent on Mar 19, 2019 14:26:18 GMT -5
With regards to the conversation about Raynor's influence on Cypress Point. Here are some details about the original Raynor plans that were allegedly studied in the 1970's by a team of Australian golf historians. Note that no.16 was intended to be a short par four. I wonder if Raynor had a particular template in mind for this 🤔. Looking at the natural contours, sixteen could have been an excellent drivable punch bowl. That's interesting because it's almost the opposite of what I'd heard before - that MacKenzie wanted #16 to be a short 4 because he thought the drive over water at that time was too difficult, but that Marion Hollins insisted he keep it a par 3. I'd heard it argued that Hollins, being from NY and a fan of his work, was the one that wanted to keep Raynor's influences where possible. And I'd read that the one thing that MacKenzie didn't really have any control over was the clubhouse location, which the quote above seems to contradict. Unless it was built between Raynor's and MacKenzie's stint in a location where neither of them placed it? Or that MacKenzie was stuck with it where Raynor had placed it because it had already been built? |
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Post by joegolferg on Mar 24, 2019 7:31:40 GMT -5
With regards to the conversation about Raynor's influence on Cypress Point. Here are some details about the original Raynor plans that were allegedly studied in the 1970's by a team of Australian golf historians. Note that no.16 was intended to be a short par four. I wonder if Raynor had a particular template in mind for this 🤔. Looking at the natural contours, sixteen could have been an excellent drivable punch bowl. That's interesting because it's almost the opposite of what I'd heard before - that MacKenzie wanted #16 to be a short 4 because he thought the drive over water at that time was too difficult, but that Marion Hollins insisted he keep it a par 3. I'd heard it argued that Hollins, being from NY and a fan of his work, was the one that wanted to keep Raynor's influences where possible. And I'd read that the one thing that MacKenzie didn't really have any control over was the clubhouse location, which the quote above seems to contradict. Unless it was built between Raynor's and MacKenzie's stint in a location where neither of them placed it? Or that MacKenzie was stuck with it where Raynor had placed it because it had already been built? I don't think we'll ever know the full story. If the puzzle pieces were there, we'd already have the info. |
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Post by joegolferg on Mar 24, 2019 7:37:22 GMT -5
The "short" hole at Seth Raynor's Camargo Club in Cincinnati. A pushed up green surface leaves the bunker on the right hand side at 17ft below the hole. When looking at the question of "which course is Raynor's best work?" The same three always pop up. Fisher's Island, Yale and Camargo. Many also argue that Camargo has the best collection of par three's in America, they're certainly one of the strongest collections of template par three's on one course, by a country mile. Pete Dye also named Camargo as one of his all time favorite courses and his favorite of Raynor's.
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Post by mcbogga on Mar 24, 2019 10:45:07 GMT -5
The "short" hole at Seth Raynor's Camargo Club in Cincinnati. A pushed up green surface leaves the bunker on the right hand side at 17ft below the hole. When looking at the question of "which course is Raynor's best work?" The same three always pop up. Fisher's Island, Yale and Camargo. Many also argue that Camargo has the best collection of par three's in America, they're certainly one of the strongest collections of template par three's on one course, by a country mile. Pete Dye also named Camargo as one of his all time favorite courses and his favorite of Raynor's. Camargo from Lidar would be sweet! |
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Post by joegolferg on Mar 24, 2019 11:18:37 GMT -5
The "short" hole at Seth Raynor's Camargo Club in Cincinnati. A pushed up green surface leaves the bunker on the right hand side at 17ft below the hole. When looking at the question of "which course is Raynor's best work?" The same three always pop up. Fisher's Island, Yale and Camargo. Many also argue that Camargo has the best collection of par three's in America, they're certainly one of the strongest collections of template par three's on one course, by a country mile. Pete Dye also named Camargo as one of his all time favorite courses and his favorite of Raynor's. Camargo from Lidar would be sweet! Absolutely! All of Raynor's work if possible. |
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