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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2018 10:39:31 GMT -5
Given one segment of this thread I want to clarify something that has been weighing on me since last night. Crazycanuck1985 is one of the classiest guys that we have around here, and is (and should be) recognized as one of the pioneers in TGC design. In his comments he has some valid points as well as some that I obviously don't agree with. It should be understood that even if I don't agree with him all of the time that i am still listening to what he has to say. This community is better for having Andre here, and our exchange is nothing more than a ripple in the pool. It's not a big deal and nothing more should be made of it. As usual, I tend to fire first and aim later in some situations. This was one such situation. My apologies to Andre and anybody else if it felt like I was coming back as hyper aggressive in my comments. Now...let's put it past us and congratulate the contestants of this amazingly deep contest. Very well done by all who participated. A special thanks goes out to catcherman22, mayday, welikeitroughnc, and Mr. Vinegar. They did a GREAT job in going through the courses and keeping this as efficient as possible. Some may not agree with what they had to say, but the time and effort they put into judging these should be recognized and applauded...it wasn't easy. |
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Post by staypuft39 on May 22, 2018 11:05:34 GMT -5
Thanks so much everyone. Made some comments during the stream last night, but feel very fortunate to be a part of this community.
I have learned, and keep learning from some amazing designers. I've learned and picked up from Canuck, Scarpacci, Griff, Titaneddie, MattF, Ola ...the list goes on.
Reeb gets an extra shoutout as working with him on Turu Wero definitely helped me take the next step, was an eye-opener at the capabilities of the designer.
Feels weird, but definitely great to be up in the top 4 of this contest with the designers I was with....now I just have to follow this course up...
*nervous collar pull*
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Post by Crazycanuck1985 on May 22, 2018 11:22:27 GMT -5
Given one segment of this thread I want to clarify something that has been weighing on me since last night. Crazycanuck1985 is one of the classiest guys that we have around here, and is (and should be) recognized as one of the pioneers in TGC design. In his comments he has some valid points as well as some that I obviously don't agree with. It should be understood that even if I don't agree with him all of the time that i am still listening to what he has to say. This community is better for having Andre here, and our exchange is nothing more than a ripple in the pool. It's not a big deal and nothing more should be made of it. As usual, I tend to fire first and aim later in some situations. This was one such situation. My apologies to Andre and anybody else if it felt like I was coming back as hyper aggressive in my comments. Now...let's put it past us and congratulate the contestants of this amazingly deep contest. Very well done by all who participated. A special thanks goes out to catcherman22, mayday, welikeitroughnc, and Mr. Vinegar. They did a GREAT job in going through the courses and keeping this as efficient as possible. Some may not agree with what they had to say, but the time and effort they put into judging these should be recognized and applauded...it wasn't easy. Thanks Griff, I appreciate it. I apologize as well. I had a few things I wanted to point out and mention, I knew you weren't going to agree with, but it clearly did not come across as I intended it to. I'm truly not bitter at all about the result and I know this is a contest that was so tight that details needed to be micro-analyzed to separate these tracks. You guys ran a great contest, and although I won't be back for the final leg in any aspect I hope the quality of courses continues to be as high as what we have seen in the first two legs. Unless a wave of inspiration hits, I've designed my last course (in TGC2 anyway) - not because of this contest, I'm just out of inspiration and out of ideas. Again, thanks to Griff and the judges for all their hard work. It takes alot of time and energy to put on a contest of this magnitude and I (and all competitors I'm sure) appreciate the effort. You guys nailed the top 4 in my opinion and a big congrats again to Matt on the well deserved victory. It's humbling to hear how some of you got started in the designer with my dinky little beginner course design tutorials from long ago, but now this teacher has become the student and I look forward to seeing more of what you incredible designers can do. |
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Post by mrooola on May 22, 2018 14:02:06 GMT -5
I've seen a bunch of people making jokes or even scoffing at the idea of the "puddles on the greens" point in reviews. I am not angry, I am here to explain what I mean by that. Trust me, this isn't some BS thing. Your greens will feel more realistic if you understand the concept. First of all, because I know not everyone knows this principle, the penalty for them was minuscule in the scheme of things. 2 or fewer was no penalty. 3-5 were .5 of a point off. 6 or more were 1 point off total. For a couple courses, that .5 or point might have made a difference, but probably not. There are other issues I'd focus on first. Corozal and Iceland were both courses in this contest that didn't get a penalty for it. What I meant by "puddles on the greens" is not just the obvious "if it rains, you have a problem." All greens in the world, except some very old links courses that don't have irrigation, are watered. Just because a course is in the desert, doesn't mean you can get away with this. Every night, the greens get watered by sprinkler or mother nature. Every night, water that doesn't get soaked into the ground will bead off. You do get mini-streams going. You ask any golf architect, planning for drainage is THE hardest part of the design process. You can't just build any green you want. There can not be a bowl on your green that doesn't have an exit for water. A "bowl" on a green is three sided. So why do are these mini-rivers that happen during irrigation a problem? If they collect in one spot, you have a BIG problem. Within a few months of this constant cycle of watering at night, sun during the day, you will develop either a disease, a fungus, or a moss growth in that spot. Your grass density will dwindle away with each time you mow the grass green height. Fairway height is tall enough for it not to be as big a problem. Their roots and blade length severely decrease the chances of that happening. Green height grass is a different story. We all play golf. You know how short the blades are. I'll tell you the roots don't go super deep either. No golfer wants to play a course where your bowls are disease, fungus, or moss-filled. This is why greens always have a minimum of one place for water to slope off. The old "back-to-front" designs took the easy way out by doing what they are called by having it slope off the front. You can have as many points that slope off as you like so long as long as if I randomly picked one point of the green, the water has somewhere to go off. Some of the BIG greens in the world, I can think of one at Bandon and one at St. Andrews, that have a drain in the middle of the green where the water would puddle in a bowl. The greens are so big in these cases that you likely never encounter them. Please do not use this as an excuse to do it. Just try to always follow the principle. It's hard, I know. I've found a couple bowls on greens I've published that I missed while designing. It's easier to pick up on in real life; however, you should try it. mayday_golf83 has thanked me a couple times for mentioning them in my notes because it is worth mentioning. Trust me, your greens will feel more realistic. And trust me that, sure you can't have some of the crazier green contouring you could have, you can still do crazy or creative things on greens. Trinity Forest was just on TV to prove that to you (though that combo 3/11 green there probably has a drain in the middle). Hope this clarifies any confusion. If anyone wants explanations on other things, let me know. I'd be happy to explain. Any of the the judges would be willing to do it if they have the time. Try to take things from this contest and continue to learn and grow. Keep moving forward. Good luck in the next contest! EDIT: I see golfclubatlas.com/ updated their homepage picture with a perfect example of different types of bowls that both show what I'm trying to say. The 15th green in the back is a traditional bowl with it feeding off towards the photographer and the 18th green sloping off the front, picture right EDIT #2: Coming from Tom Doak himself, here are "the basics to focus on" "Drainage Building blocks (length of shots, width) Visibility Strategy Short game interest" Yes. He put drainage FIRST on that list. Trust me that if you ask any golf architect, planning for drainage is the hardest part of the design process. Also, the other stuff on that list is stuff you will hear @griff talk about on every course he reviews. I'm not replying to argue. If this is an important aspect of designing to you then by all means. Use whatever criteria you want. I actually found this input very interesting and I know this is the aim in most designs even today. With that said though. There are a number of tools available through modern technology that lets the designer do pretty much whatever they want. The website you link pretty much says as much. It's all a question of money. Lucky for us. Money is not an issue in this game. |
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Post by mrvinegar206 on May 22, 2018 14:29:06 GMT -5
 There's my excuse Nice try  That is talking about rain, not irrigation. That's why it says excessive moisture. You still have to water your greens. If you have bowl and drainage problems, you can't just turn on the subair every night to solve your problem. First, that would cost a sh%$ ton to run it every night. Second, to dry out the bowls an appropriate amount, you are gonna turn the rest of your greens brown, maybe even kill them. Reminder to everyone that the most you lost for it is 1 point. There are other things to work on first. Just think of this if you want greens to feel more realistic. Cheers, Matt |
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Post by B.Smooth13 on May 22, 2018 14:40:34 GMT -5
There's my excuse Nice try That is talking about rain, not irrigation. That's why it says excessive moisture. You still have to water your greens. If you have bowl and drainage problems, you can't just turn on the subair every night to solve your problem. First, that would cost a sh%$ ton to run it every night. Second, to dry out the bowls an appropriate amount, you are gonna turn the rest of your greens brown, maybe even kill them. Reminder to everyone that the most you lost for it is 1 point. There are other things to work on first. Just think of this if you want greens to feel more realistic. Cheers, Matt I never said it was a good excuse  |
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Post by ddixjr509 on May 22, 2018 15:15:07 GMT -5
There's my excuse Nice try That is talking about rain, not irrigation. That's why it says excessive moisture. You still have to water your greens. If you have bowl and drainage problems, you can't just turn on the subair every night to solve your problem. First, that would cost a sh%$ ton to run it every night. Second, to dry out the bowls an appropriate amount, you are gonna turn the rest of your greens brown, maybe even kill them. Reminder to everyone that the most you lost for it is 1 point. There are other things to work on first. Just think of this if you want greens to feel more realistic. Cheers, MattI sent my Geotech Soils consultant to Turkey and he reported back that the fine sands of Turkey had a blow count of 3, and a perc test of 5.36 x 10 -3 cfs/ft2. If there's ponding issues, I'm suing my Geotech. |
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Post by pablo on May 22, 2018 15:30:17 GMT -5
Lots of things to comment on the contest. First of all, huge thank you to @griff . Without you this would not be posible. Then a huge thank you also to the judges for your work. Without you this would not be posible either. The field, the field has been the best of all the contests I've been involved in both as a designer and as a judge. The first thing I noticed was that there were no DNF this time, the first I think. And that shows the commitment of this community as a whole with the designing ( also that no one had the real life on his way, which is great also). We had an amazing group of designer, rookies, novice, veterans, which has produced 24 amazingly varied courses which shall give a big amount of hours of enjoyment to all the players of this game, that's for sure the biggest value of these contests. We all have learned something, be it as designers, or as players, even Griff has learned how to remove ghost balls (goodbye mayday_golf83 ). I don't know about the rest of you (I'm sure I know the answer), but I did have a ton of fun designing my course, and that's my main goal when designing (and also keeping the #BlamePablo movement on the rise, but that's secondary). When some of the courses started to be published I thought "geez, this is going to be tight" and it seem it was, again, thanks to the judging panel for your amazing work. In this contest we've seen some things that some of us didn't know (the sunken trees by Reeb, the greek village by Scarpacci - For me the best visual feature ever put on a course). Something that I really liked of this contest is the rise of "newer" designers in the top group. If you check the top 10 you'll find a few names of great designers that have made their first ever top 10, and IMO, in such a deep field as this one was is something really remakable. This is a fantastic symptom for our community, he have the classic names rocking hard, but the elite is being flooded by a few new names, and also some of the future big dogs are starting to shine, again, amazing. Some of the results surprised me a bit, but overall I had a similar classification in mind when I had played all the courses. I was sure the top 4 was going to be the one that ended being, and the "following" group in my mind was very similar (5th to 15th). This second group is where the real depth of the field is. Even the last few courses on the leaderboard are way better IMO than the last courses on the leaderboard in previous contests. Of course, congrats staypuft39 on an amazing work in your course man, it was amazing. See you all on the next contest. And you can be sure, my goal is the top 5 |
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Post by Violinguy69 on May 22, 2018 16:16:00 GMT -5
I'm not going to lie, I had designs (get it? designs!) on placing higher, but every criticism of my course is on point. I was talking to Eric the other night and told him that IMO, my course was much better before I put any trees on it. When I was building holes I really thought I had a top 5 course. As the foliage came in, I had some nerves about the course but I went ahead anyways. I also made the mistake of using different techniques on both bunkers and fairways. That made the course a little disjointed in style. Were I to do it over again, I would probably design the same course, but without the crippling self doubt. I put a lot of pressure on myself to make a great course and try to impress the best designers we have, and when you put that together with contest parameters, it made me uncomfortable designing. The inconsistent golf course that was published is the result. Next time, I'm going to be a lot more careful and a lot more comfortable in designing. Trust me, I'll be around for a while and you'll see my next contest course nearer the top than the bottom. I just can't wait to see what we have to do for next time. |
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Post by pablo on May 22, 2018 16:19:23 GMT -5
IMO, my course was much better before I put any trees on it. This, next time remove those trees. And don't try to impress anyone but yourself. I used to do that in the past and it doesn't work. Do your course, @!$# anything else |
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Post by mrvinegar206 on May 22, 2018 17:30:26 GMT -5
Nice try That is talking about rain, not irrigation. That's why it says excessive moisture. You still have to water your greens. If you have bowl and drainage problems, you can't just turn on the subair every night to solve your problem. First, that would cost a sh%$ ton to run it every night. Second, to dry out the bowls an appropriate amount, you are gonna turn the rest of your greens brown, maybe even kill them. Reminder to everyone that the most you lost for it is 1 point. There are other things to work on first. Just think of this if you want greens to feel more realistic. Cheers, MattI sent my Geotech Soils consultant to Turkey and he reported back that the fine sands of Turkey had a blow count of 3, and a perc test of 5.36 x 10 -3 cfs/ft2. If there's ponding issues, I'm suing my Geotech. Touché |
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mayday_golf83
TGCT Design Competition Directors
Posts: 2,279 
TGCT Name: Jeremy Mayo
Tour: Elite
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Post by mayday_golf83 on May 22, 2018 18:30:43 GMT -5
IMO, my course was much better before I put any trees on it. This, next time remove those trees. And don't try to impress anyone but yourself. I used to do that in the past and it doesn't work. Do your course, @!$# anything else ^^ THIS! Above all else, do this, and the rest will fall into place. |
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reebdoog
TGCT Design Competition Directors
Posts: 2,742
TGCT Name: Brian Jeffords
Tour: CC-Pro
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Post by reebdoog on May 22, 2018 20:57:16 GMT -5
anyone know if Griff is posting the comments today or no? Just curious if I should watch for them or leave this place alone for the day. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2018 22:24:39 GMT -5
anyone know if Griff is posting the comments today or no? Just curious if I should watch for them or leave this place alone for the day. Sorry, reeb....I'll post tomorrow...promise. This day just got away from me. |
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reebdoog
TGCT Design Competition Directors
Posts: 2,742
TGCT Name: Brian Jeffords
Tour: CC-Pro
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Post by reebdoog on May 22, 2018 22:34:17 GMT -5
No worries man was just askin. Rock on man
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International Record: 7-0-0
