Results comments thread - PLEASE POST ANY COMMENTS HERE-

[misternic]

Thanks for all the reviewing time and effort (judges and Griff). Surprised I got dinged on routing as much as I did. My routing is a bit all over the place, but did not realize it would be used as a criteria. Now tee shooting over 7 green I get, but distance between holes seems little nitpicky. Was hoping for top half, but close... Really do appreciate all the time and feedback. I think Pos 14-17 had like about 1 pt difference in score, crazy tight.

[B.Smooth13]

Appreciate all the judges and Griff's time that was invested into this contest, was a joy to be involved. I'm pleased to finish in the top 10 ahead of many courses and designers I have a lot of respect for, so that is certainly a satisfying finishing position. Just as I suspect most of us here are, I'm marginally disappointed I didn't finish a bit higher, but that's just the competitor in me - I don't find fault in where the judges placed Copa, just wish I could have snuck into the top 5 somehow as that was my goal. I find it very interesting that some of the things pointed out in a few judges comments as negatives are nearly some of the exact same things others have said they felt were enhancements/liked about the course - goes to show just how subjective all of this design judging is! Nevertheless, that's as close to complaining about it as I'll get, because this was a stacked field of courses, can't imagine having to go through and definitively decide which should finish above another...not a task I envied. I appreciate the feedback from you guys, and again, thanks for your time.

[mattf27]

I'm thrilled to have made it this far, regardless of what happens from here. I'm in some seriously good company in the top 4.

[jacobkessler]

May 21, 2018 6:53:02 GMT -5 B.Smooth13 said:

Appreciate all the judges and Griff's time that was invested into this contest, was a joy to be involved. I'm pleased to finish in the top 10 ahead of many courses and designers I have a lot of respect for, so that is certainly a satisfying finishing position. Just as I suspect most of us here are, I'm marginally disappointed I didn't finish a bit higher, but that's just the competitor in me - I don't find fault in where the judges placed Copa, just wish I could have snuck into the top 5 somehow as that was my goal. I find it very interesting that some of the things pointed out in a few judges comments as negatives are nearly some of the exact same things others have said they felt were enhancements/liked about the course - goes to show just how subjective all of this design judging is! Nevertheless, that's as close to complaining about it as I'll get, because this was a stacked field of courses, can't imagine having to go through and definitively decide which should finish above another...not a task I envied. I appreciate the feedback from you guys, and again, thanks for your time.

This needs quoted.

[mrvinegar206]

That's why there are 5 judges. There are disagreements due to subjectivity!!

I applaud all the courses in this contest. The future of designing in this game is very bright.

[Crazycanuck1985]

Thanks to Griff and the judges for another competitive contest. All the competitors appreciate your time and effort. With that said, I do have a couple things I want to say in regards to this contest and the current state of the design community in general as I've been watching in the shadows for the past few months.

This may come off as be being bitter for finishing in the bottom half of this contest...I was definitely disappointed and surprised with the result, but I hold no hard feelings, but I'm not going to hold back here.

I feel that as these contests become more and more complex and technical (I'll touch on that later), judges need to find some sort of common ground and make it crystal clear to competitors exactly what they are looking for and how points are deducted or lost. This is like me as a teacher giving a project without any rubric or criteria. Students are confused and communication is unclear.

Based on some of the comments, the judging was all over the place. Some judges had paragraphs of feedback, others had one sentence (which wasn't feedback at all IMO). Judges seemed to focus on very different (and utterly ridiculous in some cases) aspects of a golf course so it wasn't clear what was being looked for. The fact that some courses were within a quarter point of each other? I mean, that takes splitting hairs to a whole new level.

It was my original thought that as this course was centered around a "National Treasure" theme, the look and immersive-ness would be a huge part of the contest. As you guys know, I'm more of a visual designer than a technical one, which drew me to compete. Based on the judges comments so far, it didn't seem to matter for much.

This contest was EXTREMELY technical. To the point of it being laughable. Puddles on greens? Course routing? Squiggly lines between rough and heavy rough? C'mon virtual Pete Dye. It's a video game, why does it matter? I'll admit that my course should have been dinged for routing as I put a few too many holes in one direction, but other courses were unfairly penalized I felt. And they way some of these comments were written? Some were quite harsh and reeked of elite-ism.

Which leads me to my final point. I feel as though the design community has grown a ton with TGC2, which is fantastic, but all these technical minor details, really bog things down and take the fun out of these design contests (at least for me). This was a big reason I stopped my critiques. I didn't want to start pushing my ideas as how things should be done. I feel things need to be simplified, and at the end of the day, you design for yourself, not to please a few people. As we move towards TGC2019 and from the looks of things, it's going to bring in alot of new designers. I think we need to be helpful, encouraging, and supportive, instead of giving them a big list of what not to do.

I think we really just need to get back to the FUN. Is it fun to play? Then it's probably a pretty good course. I know there still are quite a few of you that love these types of technical contests, but organizers and judges need to be much more clear on exactly what they want. At the end of the day, the judging is subjective.. and when it's subjective, I say keep it simple. Like Elz and my Par 3 contests. We had a few things we looked for but it came down to what course did we like the best all-around.

Keep it simple, keep it fun, and most importantly, design for yourself. But again, this is just my opinion

That being said, this contest produced a level of design I haven't seen before and based on the pictures (I've only played a few of them), I feel the judges got the top 4 right. Great work!

OK, Flame away.

[Deleted]

[Deleted]

May 21, 2018 18:04:59 GMT -5 Crazycanuck1985 said:

Thanks to Griff and the judges for another competitive contest. All the competitors appreciate your time and effort. With that said, I do have a couple things I want to say in regards to this contest and the current state of the design community in general as I've been watching in the shadows for the past few months.

This may come off as be being bitter for finishing in the bottom half of this contest...I was definitely disappointed and surprised with the result, but I hold no hard feelings, but I'm not going to hold back here.

I feel that as these contests become more and more complex and technical (I'll touch on that later), judges need to find some sort of common ground and make it crystal clear to competitors exactly what they are looking for and how points are deducted or lost. This is like me as a teacher giving a project without any rubric or criteria. Students are confused and communication is unclear.

Based on some of the comments, the judging was all over the place. Some judges had paragraphs of feedback, others had one sentence (which wasn't feedback at all IMO). Judges seemed to focus on very different (and utterly ridiculous in some cases) aspects of a golf course so it wasn't clear what was being looked for. The fact that some courses were within a quarter point of each other? I mean, that takes splitting hairs to a whole new level.

It was my original thought that as this course was centered around a "National Treasure" theme, the look and immersive-ness would be a huge part of the contest. As you guys know, I'm more of a visual designer than a technical one, which drew me to compete. Based on the judges comments so far, it didn't seem to matter for much.

This contest was EXTREMELY technical. To the point of it being laughable. Puddles on greens? Course routing? Squiggly lines between rough and heavy rough? C'mon virtual Pete Dye. It's a video game, why does it matter? I'll admit that my course should have been dinged for routing as I put a few too many holes in one direction, but other courses were unfairly penalized I felt. And they way some of these comments were written? Some were quite harsh and reeked of elite-ism.

Which leads me to my final point. I feel as though the design community has grown a ton with TGC2, which is fantastic, but all these technical minor details, really bog things down and take the fun out of these design contests (at least for me). This was a big reason I stopped my critiques. I didn't want to start pushing my ideas as how things should be done. I feel things need to be simplified, and at the end of the day, you design for yourself, not to please a few people. As we move towards TGC2019 and from the looks of things, it's going to bring in alot of new designers. I think we need to be helpful, encouraging, and supportive, instead of giving them a big list of what not to do.

I think we really just need to get back to the FUN. Is it fun to play? Then it's probably a pretty good course. I know there still are quite a few of you that love these types of technical contests, but organizers and judges need to be much more clear on exactly what they want. At the end of the day, the judging is subjective.. and when it's subjective, I say keep it simple. Like Elz and my Par 3 contests. We had a few things we looked for but it came down to what course did we like the best all-around.

Keep it simple, keep it fun, and most importantly, design for yourself. But again, this is just my opinion

That being said, this contest produced a level of design I haven't seen before and based on the pictures (I've only played a few of them), I feel the judges got the top 4 right. Great work!

OK, Flame away.

You're right. Everybody gets a trophy. No show tonight, guys...you were all equally good.

Sorry...forgot this was a contest.

[jacobkessler]

Dammit, already made plans to watch the results show.... oh well

[reebdoog]

YES! I get a trophy...nah nah nah nah naaaa naaaa.

[Deleted]

[Deleted]

Even me?

Doubt it.

[Deleted]

May 21, 2018 18:04:59 GMT -5 Crazycanuck1985 said:

Thanks to Griff and the judges for another competitive contest. All the competitors appreciate your time and effort. With that said, I do have a couple things I want to say in regards to this contest and the current state of the design community in general as I've been watching in the shadows for the past few months.

This may come off as be being bitter for finishing in the bottom half of this contest...I was definitely disappointed and surprised with the result, but I hold no hard feelings, but I'm not going to hold back here.

I feel that as these contests become more and more complex and technical (I'll touch on that later), judges need to find some sort of common ground and make it crystal clear to competitors exactly what they are looking for and how points are deducted or lost. This is like me as a teacher giving a project without any rubric or criteria. Students are confused and communication is unclear.

Based on some of the comments, the judging was all over the place. Some judges had paragraphs of feedback, others had one sentence (which wasn't feedback at all IMO). Judges seemed to focus on very different (and utterly ridiculous in some cases) aspects of a golf course so it wasn't clear what was being looked for. The fact that some courses were within a quarter point of each other? I mean, that takes splitting hairs to a whole new level.

It was my original thought that as this course was centered around a "National Treasure" theme, the look and immersive-ness would be a huge part of the contest. As you guys know, I'm more of a visual designer than a technical one, which drew me to compete. Based on the judges comments so far, it didn't seem to matter for much.

This contest was EXTREMELY technical. To the point of it being laughable. Puddles on greens? Course routing? Squiggly lines between rough and heavy rough? C'mon virtual Pete Dye. It's a video game, why does it matter? I'll admit that my course should have been dinged for routing as I put a few too many holes in one direction, but other courses were unfairly penalized I felt. And they way some of these comments were written? Some were quite harsh and reeked of elite-ism.

Which leads me to my final point. I feel as though the design community has grown a ton with TGC2, which is fantastic, but all these technical minor details, really bog things down and take the fun out of these design contests (at least for me). This was a big reason I stopped my critiques. I didn't want to start pushing my ideas as how things should be done. I feel things need to be simplified, and at the end of the day, you design for yourself, not to please a few people. As we move towards TGC2019 and from the looks of things, it's going to bring in alot of new designers. I think we need to be helpful, encouraging, and supportive, instead of giving them a big list of what not to do.

I think we really just need to get back to the FUN. Is it fun to play? Then it's probably a pretty good course. I know there still are quite a few of you that love these types of technical contests, but organizers and judges need to be much more clear on exactly what they want. At the end of the day, the judging is subjective.. and when it's subjective, I say keep it simple. Like Elz and my Par 3 contests. We had a few things we looked for but it came down to what course did we like the best all-around.

Keep it simple, keep it fun, and most importantly, design for yourself. But again, this is just my opinion

That being said, this contest produced a level of design I haven't seen before and based on the pictures (I've only played a few of them), I feel the judges got the top 4 right. Great work!

OK, Flame away.

Now that I've had a chance to eat and actually sit down...  Let me preface this by saying I actually had your course ranked higher than what the final standings show.

A ) All of the scoring metrics were posted: "Scoring is being done on a 50 point scale in 5 different categories with certain categories being weighted more than others: Playability/Shot Values, Aesthetics/Ambiance, Country, Technical/Cleanliness, and Creativity. We currently have 24 entries, so the awarded points will be as follows". The country was indeed a metric in its own category. The contest was weighted towards playability...and it is EVERY SINGLE TIME. 

B ) As to the "squiggly line comment: There have multiple streams and videos posted of how to avoid it. You probably spend more time figuring out where to place lamp posts on a particular hole than it takes to lay heavy rough without leaving squiggly lines. It's a CONTEST. In a vacuum if your course is equally good as one you're up against and you have squiggly lines and they don't...you lose. That means they took the extra 10 seconds to avoid it instead of running their heavy rough brush over light rough. I don't really know what else to explain here or why you're even questioning it. It's a CONTEST. Well done is well done...clean and well done beats well done.


C ) As to the "elitism": I see this being said more and more and it's starting to piss me off. #1. It's a CONTEST. If you enter a contest not knowing your course is going to be judged against and relative to all of the other courses in said contests, then I don't know what to tell you. #2. Did you watch any of the streams? If so then you know that I started EVERY SINGLE STREAM by saying " 99% of everything I will say here is nothing more than my opinion.  I am not implying that what the designer has done is bad, I'm just offering up a first looks critique as a fellow designer and sharing what my eyes see. Nothing more. If there are technical things that will cost the designer points I will point them out. otherwise, it's just my opinion." guys heard that day in and day out through the duration. Nobody is telling a designer they HAVE to design a certain way. Nobody is even implying it. What has been offered up is reasons why certain courses excelled and others didn't in the judge's eyes.

D ) Judging all over the place: I would seriously recommend you volunteer for one of the upcoming contests so you get a taste of this first hand. I promise it will change the way you view this. You have 5 different perspectives with five different styles with five different techniques with five different personalities scoring these courses. Yes, you're going to get differing opinions and some judges will score differently based on what the INDIVIDUAL feels is a priority. All I can do is set the scoresheet and metrics...I have zero control over how an individual judge interprets that. 


E ) Judging part 2: In the end it becomes subjective and there's no way of getting around it. Put 100 golfers in a room and ask which is the best course between Oakmont, Augusta, and Pebble Beach. You will get many different answers,  and even many different opinions as to why even within similar groups. 

F ) Judging part 3: I have mentioned this a couple of times already, but, hell..let's make it one more. You didn't always lose points for something in the "negative" category. That should often times be interpreted as "just didn't gain points here." Like the puddles on the green crap...that was one judge pointing it out as an architectural situation. It was actually not or an extremely little part of his scoring metric. It was just something he was pointing out in passing. As for the "virtual Pete Dye" comment...well, he actually does this for a living, so yeahhh...there's that. 

G ) Judge's comments posted by me: You don't see everything the judges say. I edit them as i see fit and post what is relative. there is no need for the peanut gallery to see every comment or debate that runs through the thread. The abbreviated comments that you seem to disdain were done at my leisure and judgement. If you or anybody else has an issue with that then PM me and we can hash it out there.

I ) Burrowing Owl actually lost because of routing, you were given the notes, you did the same exact thing. Keep doing the same sh%$ over and over expecting different results...

J ) Once again...this was a contest. If you want to design for fun with zero judgement then don't enter. You've won one of these and didn't seem to have a single negative comment on some of the stupid ass judges comments on that one...wayyyyy more than this one. I'm not sure how it hurts the community to have a contest...actually posted as a contest...you know, where some people will finish higher than others, then it be elitist because of....?

H ) Helpfulness: yeah...what was I thinking about new people coming in. All of the streaming I do showing people how to do sh%$...answering questions...making videos...encouraging them in their threads...wtf was I thinking? Seriously ridiculous comment to make in a contest thread. Carry that big turd somewhere else, man. You're better than that and know better than that. It's a effing CONTEST.

I have plenty more, but, unfortunately, we have a show to do. 


I don't get it, Andre. You've been around too long for this doodoo. 

[jacobkessler]

I think griff is so upset he forget the alphabet... 

it goes HIJ, not IJH  

But in all seriousness, while I get parts from both sides of the argument... I gotta side with Griff here, simply because there are too many courses to be overly subjective. Once you get through the simplest this course is better than this, it comes down to the nit-picky stuff. The winning course will be even with the 4th in terms of looks and playability, but the winner will have a much more crisp, clear course. But that’s all I have to say.

[reebdoog]

I think the overall gist of what Andre was saying is this:

Perhaps the minutia has gotten in the way of the overall "better course" idea
If a squiggly rough line puts a course that does not play as well and is not as immersive ahead...then perhaps they are being looked at too hard.


I get the feeling. I do. TRUST me I do, however...I'd say it's a different style of contest and this kind of examination was to be expected. Is it what each person would like? Not at all. I know that I felt "robbed" in a contest before. I won't get into it but I was pretty miffed. But when you change the judging panel around each time this is going to happen.

I'm fine with the style in which this was judged, and I get what Andre was saying as well. It's a fine line to walk and we will never get a result everyone agrees with anyway.