Chipping on Greens - Discussion

[Deleted]

Jan 23, 2015 18:06:03 GMT -5 @tastegw said:

Jan 23, 2015 18:02:27 GMT -5 Brighttail said:

Been there, done that.  I think the longest putt i have personally seen was 144 feet, don't remember where.

Seriously is there something wrong with trying to find a compromise?  I'm trying to offer a solution for what I view as a quite draconian ruling.  I'm willing to concede that chipping can and has been abused by people. I'm trying to find a compromise where in select situations, it can be acceptable.  Even under my proposed change, how many shots in a four round tournament is one person going to have that would be beyond 60 feet? One? Two max?

For the record putting at 144 feet even with DPI turned all the way up and I maxed out the distance, i still came up 30 feet short.

i simply dont agree bright,  60 feet is way too short to say "the hell with it, ima chip this"    offer up all the solutions you want, im not the one who can make the change,  im just here disagreeing with you, i have that right, same as you have yours.

3 putts are a real thing in golf,  why should it not be in tgc?

[mrsauga]

I support this change 100%.

I believe everyone should be able to speak their point and there has been a lot made on this subject. Everyone struggles with this game in one way or another. With lots of practice I believe I have become a much better player on here than I was 2 months ago. I finished in the top five on my first PGA event yet struggled badly in Q-School, which is when I decided I needed to play more to get better. But more importantly I needed to understand the effects of lies, green speeds, uphill and downhill putts and of course the wind. My putting is pretty good and I can lag a putt typically within 5 feet when needed, so distance doesn't bother me like it may others who are still working on green control. If there is no grid where I land then TGC provides enough tools to view the lay of the land and a good reference of a putting line when used in conjunction with the grid lines. Try the low view and overhead view, zoom in and out, circle the green, and knock it within a few feet. Just like real life, except for the overhead.

Having said that, if you are the type of player who struggles getting it close to the pin consistently then more practice is what is needed. If you occasionally miss wide and land 70-100 feet away then that's a bad shot and should not be rewarded with an excellent chip on the green for birdie or par. I have never chipped here, nor in TW, and unless I have an obstacle such as a jutting green or sand trap then no matter where I end up on the green I will putt. I will chip from the fringe, as this is not the green and is widely accepted in real life and in our virtual world we play in, but more often than not a putter will suffice.

Anyhow, great rule!

[Deleted]

Jan 23, 2015 18:13:23 GMT -5 slickhenry said:

Stupid and not well thought out policy. Saying this as a golfer, a gamer and a golf referee.

I "game" the system by putting from the rough because I prefer that. Should that be illegal as well?

this is just silly slickhenry,  you know damn well that using any club from the rough is and should be legal, thats not gaming the system, that is golf.

the issue at hand here, is about gaming the system via not putting 15-20 foot manageable putts. 

[Deleted]

Jan 23, 2015 18:06:03 GMT -5 @tastegw said:

Jan 23, 2015 18:02:27 GMT -5 Brighttail said:

Been there, done that.  I think the longest putt i have personally seen was 144 feet, don't remember where.

Seriously is there something wrong with trying to find a compromise?  I'm trying to offer a solution for what I view as a quite draconian ruling.  I'm willing to concede that chipping can and has been abused by people. I'm trying to find a compromise where in select situations, it can be acceptable.  Even under my proposed change, how many shots in a four round tournament is one person going to have that would be beyond 60 feet? One? Two max?

For the record putting at 144 feet even with DPI turned all the way up and I maxed out the distance, i still came up 30 feet short.

i simply dont agree bright,  60 feet is way too short to say "the hell with it, ima chip this"    offer up all the solutions you want, im not the one who can make the change,  im just here disagreeing with you, i have that right, same as you have yours.

3 putts are a real thing in golf,  why should it not be in tgc?

I agree with you totally,60ft is quite a straightforward shot in this game with a pitch or flop shot. With this 60 ft chipping rule you will get some players never hitting a putt over 60 ft, that is just not golf in my eyes and this is supposed to be a golf game

[Deleted]

Jan 23, 2015 18:15:51 GMT -5 Brighttail said:

Jan 23, 2015 18:13:23 GMT -5 slickhenry said:

Stupid and not well thought out policy. Saying this as a golfer, a gamer and a golf referee.

I "game" the system by putting from the rough because I prefer that. Should that be illegal as well?

Excellent point.  Should putting off the fringe or from the rough be disallowed?  I consistently will put from the rough if i'm 5 yards away, it is more accurate

Putting out of the rough does not give you an advantage, chipping from 15ft  over a break on the green does

[slickhenry]

Jan 23, 2015 18:21:31 GMT -5 @tastegw said:

Jan 23, 2015 18:13:23 GMT -5 slickhenry said:

Stupid and not well thought out policy. Saying this as a golfer, a gamer and a golf referee.

I "game" the system by putting from the rough because I prefer that. Should that be illegal as well?

this is just silly slickhenry,  you know damn well that using any club from the rough is and should be legal, thats not gaming the system, that is golf.

the issue at hand here, is about gaming the system via not putting 15-20 foot manageable putts. 

I know quite well that using any club on the green is and should be legal as well. I don't see the difference.

I will always use the putter myself on 15-20 foot puts, but will defend the right for those who choose to chip instead, as long as they follow the rules of golf.

This policy has nothing to do with the rules of golf, and I am afraid that it will open the gates for any similar policy to disallow a thing some people don't like. (hence my comment on putting from the rough)

[Mitchblue]

Jan 23, 2015 18:33:46 GMT -5 slickhenry said:

Jan 23, 2015 18:21:31 GMT -5 @tastegw said:

this is just silly slickhenry,  you know damn well that using any club from the rough is and should be legal, thats not gaming the system, that is golf.

the issue at hand here, is about gaming the system via not putting 15-20 foot manageable putts. 

I know quite well that using any club on the green is and should be legal as well. I don't see the difference.

I will always use the putter myself on 15-20 foot puts, but will defend the right for those who choose to chip instead, as long as they follow the rules of golf.

This policy has nothing to do with the rules of golf, and I am afraid that it will open the gates for any similar policy to disallow a thing some people don't like. (hence my comment on putting from the rough)

As much as you want to make a game like the RL PGA tour it's not possible. When Phil uses a controller or mouse to putt with you might have a point..

[Deleted]

Jan 23, 2015 12:47:56 GMT -5 Tim said:

Jan 23, 2015 12:42:42 GMT -5 steve2golf said:

I see your the definition of chipping, but is there any reason the rule cannot state clearly then "New Policy, Putting is the only shot permitted while on the green, unless the fringe/rough/bunker is between your ball and your putting line to the hole. Chit house lawyers will have a field day with the current wording.

We are making a change to something just like that right now. Will be updated shortly.

So you went with:

Chipping/pitching/flopping/punching (hereinafter referred to as "chipping") on the green is only allowed when fringe/rough/bunker is between your ball and your putting line to the hole.

instead of:

Putting is the only shot permitted while on the green, unless the fringe/rough/bunker is between your ball and your putting line to the hole.

You know I read as much into an inaction as I do an action.

Now you have the option of partial power full shot being OK.

Do you plan on adding partial power full shot, or is that OK.

[Brighttail]

Well I have said my peace. In short I agree with the spirit of the rule but not the "all or nothing" implementation.

I would therefore request that when a player decides that it is within his best interests to chip on the green and a complaint is made, that the tournament marshal objectively look at each case by case. If it it is something obvious that the person was trying to take a break out of the equation, that is simple. I would ask that extremely long putts with severe slope changes be considered as valid as some of us simply cannot get up that slope do to a limitation of the game. Not every system is equal and not everyone uses the same equipment. Due to this a player should not be penalized do to the limitations outside his/her control.

Peace, Out.

BT

[KLRSKIR]

Seriously, we're not STILL harping, are we? PUTT on fellow golfers. )

[Painmantle]

<sigh> Just read this whole thread, and I knew before I started I'd have a headache before I finished. I was right! My only comment is, Regardless whether you agree or disagree with this policy, as long as we are all playing by the same rules it's fair, period, end of story. As I mentioned in another thread, not one person has changed another's opinion on this subject. But everyone loves beating a dead horse! Acceptance is the key to happiness.Putt along, nothing to see here....

[Deleted]

This is interesting because I sort of hinted that I bet people were chipping when they didn't need to take out the break. I assumed it was happening because it has in every golf game I've ever seen hitting a flop from 130 feet is one thing... chipping from 15 feet is another

i applaud the rule since it has to be all or none

I missed a cut by 1 because I ended up 120 feet away on 18 and couldnt hit it hard enough... a flop and im gimmie range but I asked myself "would i flop this irl"? and the answer was no so I didn't.

anyone who would... please don't play at my course

[classicphil]

I want to weigh in and point a few things out about this policy. For context, I typically play most of my rounds on my Surface Pro 3 in a windowed mode with a resolution of 1024 x 768, as I’m attending school in another city from where I live and thus I don’t have my desktop. Unfortunately because of the poor optimization in the game and limited specs in my rig, I have to play on this low resolution in order to have playable FPS. Therefore some of the issues that I will be referring to below are even worse than most in my situation.

First, I have no issue with the change in policy in theory – what I do have issue with is there being a lack of consultation with the members. I feel as if the brass here only heard for the shrillest of voices who (upon looking back at the forums) opposed chipping on greens. I’m at school full time, I don’t have time for endless practice rounds or to follow the forums every day, so perhaps I’m missing something but to change rule first then debate seems a bit backwards in my opinion. That said, a late discussion is better than no discussion at all. Moving forward, is it that hard to send out an email poll or set one up in the forums? It is very troubling to me how the decision was made on this issue - it certainly makes it seem as if some people have the ears of the organizers/officials more so than others.

I also see a lot of straw men and false comparisons being trotted out in this discussion. First off, chipping on the greens is legal in real life. The reason pros don’t do it isn’t out of deference to the “integrity of the game” or “fair play” as some have suggested, but rather because a putter on the green in real life is a better percentage play than chipping. If a pro scored better by using a 3 wood or a pitching wedge on the green than a putter, you better believe he’d do that instead of putting. Simply a false comparison being made there. Also, its pure hyperbole and speculation to assert with authority (as some have) that an uptick in pros doing this would result in a rule change. No one knows that – to assert that is simply false. You may think that, but I’d imagine otherwise. It’s not a hack, cheat, or exploit at all, but simply a different way of playing the game.

In real life my younger brother (who is a single digit handicap) often uses his 3 wood instead of his putter and plays very well with it (last round I played with him he was 6 over par putting the entire day with a 3 wood). I had no qualms about it then just as I have no qualms about it in this situation. The rules are the rules and to implement a heavy-handed ban simply because it pisses off a vocal minority is a poor decision in my opinion.

The rules in golf are clear on this and we should follow suit. The assertion that chipping on the greens in TGC is some sort of “exploit” or “hack” is ridiculous. Chipping in TGC is not easy, not even when you’re 15-20 feet away – it’s not a slam dunk by any means. Chipping was one of the weakest parts of my game when I first started playing and was something that I had to work at to get better at. I’m fairly good at chipping now, but even when I’m chipping on the green it’s a risky play and is a shot I have to think through every time. For those who think chipping on the green is so easy and equate it with “hacking” or “cheating”, I challenge them to play a round where you chip instead of putt. Let me know how it turns out. It’s tough to judge the distance you need to carry, the roll, the break, etc etc - it’s simply flabbergasting how people in this thread are referring to it like it’s the easiest shot in the world to make.

I sometimes chip on the greens, particularly if I’m a good distance away from the hole, because it’s a better shot to play than putting. I would do the exact same thing in real life. It’s even more difficult for me given the resolution I have to play at to judge the break and distance for long putts – this new rule will ensure that I will go from having a 10% chance of making a cut in a tournament to having a 1% chance of making a cut.

Another point I’d wish to touch on is the fact that tournaments will be played on courses with extremely tricked out greens. The fact that we now have 1 less shot in our arsenal to combat some of the ridiculously difficult greens really takes away motivation to even play in these tournaments. What this rule will ensure is that there is an even greater disparity and gap between the top performers and those struggling to make the cut. I find it rather rich that the top performers tend to be the ones pushing the hardest to eliminate chipping on the greens. I get that some of you are gods in this game and can routinely put up scores in the 50’s – but to turn around and complain because players like me sometimes use a wedge to ensure that I’m not 3 putting on a hole because I missed a miniscule landing spot on my approach and ended up 75 feet away from the pin is a bit much. Hell, I can’t even tell you how many times I’ve 3 putted from within 10 feet because I’m putting on the side of Mount Everest. Taking away another option I have in this game and forcing me to play away from my strengths, in a uniform fashion alongside everyone else, is unfair to say the least.

There is so little variation in this game as it is – taking away chipping on the greens ensures that there are even fewer ways to play the game and thus benefits those that are skilled in playing it the “traditional” way. Think about it. Unlike in real life, where some golfers have better control or distance or putting styles etc, everyone in the TGC has the same carry distance, the same putting style, and play the rounds in a very uniform way. However, chipping vs putting on the green is a choice in strategy at times and is a variable in the game. By eliminating that, you take away one of the few variances and force everyone to play using the same static and uniform strategy and shot types. This means that those who are really good playing that way benefit; those (like me) who have a different strategy and different skillset in the game are punished and forced to play away from my strengths. Essentially now the only difference that will exist is in the wind conditions when people play, which is an even greater flaw and form of “cheating” than using a sand wedge on the green. It will now come down to who has the better wind conditions and the better ability to execute the same shots everyone else will play. This makes for a tournament experience that has far less diversity in play style and strategy, which is to the detriment of the tour.

For me personally, this rule change particularly irks me. I struggle to make the cut every week (it looks as if I might make my first cut this week) despite playing pretty solid. I have a very difficult time putting that is in part due to the resolution I have to play at, in part due to hit and miss execution of putts, and in part due to issues I’ve had with the grid and reading putts. I’ve had numerous occasions where the grid tells me it’s breaking one way and it breaks another – I know, get behind the ball and read it; you try doing that with a 1024x768 resolution. Usually in a round I’ll have to chip on the green because it’s the better play for me than risking a 4 putt. Now, however this is no longer an option for me. This will likely result in me putting it off the green so I can then chip because that’s better play than a 3 or 4 putt. To me, its patently unfair and ridiculous – I’m being punished because I’ve gotten better at chipping than I am putting. And why has this come about? From my perception it seems to be a decision made with little consultation as a result of sour grapes from players who tend to make cuts and be up a lot higher on the leaderboard than I am. This makes it particularly bitter for me – it’s quite something to have someone who shoots in the 50’s tell me to “get better”. To tell me that I should simply try harder and be forced to play the game the way they play the game instead of allowing me the freedom to play and make decisions on the course that I feel are best. What makes me sorer about this is the fact that things that are way more of an exploit than chipping on the green (170 yard sand wedge from the deep rough, waiting till the wind dies down), are ignored or not touched on while chipping on the green is where the crackdown happens. I don’t rely on chipping to shoot low, but it likely saves a few shots a round. When I play lights out I still miss/barely miss the cut and I’m pretty decent at golf in real life and in this game. This rule change simply benefits those who are already at the top (protecting them from further challenges) while hurting guys who struggle like me. Knowing that I now have 1 fewer shot type in my bag simply because some people here feel the need to force everyone to play exactly as they do is just irksome to say the least.

That said, I’ll respect the rule but I do hope it is reconsidered or changed. I like the idea of allowing chipping if your 50ft or more away from the hole – to me that seems like a fair compromise. Guys who are 50ft + away from the hole are gonna be more from my end of the spectrum anyways, so those at the top of the leaderboards week in and week out should really not give a crap. Given that you basically have to birdie every hole to even stand a chance at winning the tournament certainly indicates that this assertion is factually accurate. I am pretty pissed off about this (yes I know it’s a game, yadda yadda yadda) more so because I’ve worked hard to make the PGA tour and have worked hard to improve my game, but now I’m back to square 1 in a sense because a certain shot type has been arbitrarily removed from my arsenal. I’m very grateful for the guys that have put this whole things together and the volunteer hours that are put into this sort of enterprise. It’s really awesome and I hope my comments aren’t seen as meaningless and unappreciative b%&ing. While I am pissed, I do not mean any disrespect to the tour organizers etc and hope that my criticisms are seen as constructive and that my perspective is taken into account.

Sorry for the length of this, I felt these things needed to be said.

[Deleted]

Jan 23, 2015 21:31:34 GMT -5 classicphil said:

I want to weigh in and point a few things out about this policy. For context, I typically play most of my rounds on my Surface Pro 3 in a windowed mode with a resolution of 1024 x 768, as I’m attending school in another city from where I live and thus I don’t have my desktop. Unfortunately because of the poor optimization in the game and limited specs in my rig, I have to play on this low resolution in order to have playable FPS. Therefore some of the issues that I will be referring to below are even worse than most in my situation.

First, I have no issue with the change in policy in theory – what I do have issue with is there being a lack of consultation with the members. I feel as if the brass here only heard for the shrillest of voices who (upon looking back at the forums) opposed chipping on greens. I’m at school full time, I don’t have time for endless practice rounds or to follow the forums every day, so perhaps I’m missing something but to change rule first then debate seems a bit backwards in my opinion. That said, a late discussion is better than no discussion at all.

I also see a lot of straw men and false comparisons being trotted out in this discussion. First off, chipping on the greens is legal in real life. The reason pros don’t do it isn’t out of deference to the “integrity of the game” or “fair play” as some have suggested, but rather because a putter on the green in real life is a better percentage play than chipping. If a pro scored better by using a 3 wood or a pitching wedge on the green than a putter, you better believe he’d do that instead of putting. Simply a false comparison being made there. Also, its pure hyperbole and speculation to assert with authority (as some have) that an uptick in pros doing this would result in a rule change. No one knows that – to assert that is simply false. You may think that, but I’d imagine otherwise. It’s not a hack, cheat, or exploit at all, but simply a different way of playing the game.

In real life my younger brother (who is a single digit handicap) often uses his 3 wood instead of his putter and plays very well with it (last round I played with him he was 6 over par putting the entire day with a 3 wood). I had no qualms about it then just as I have no qualms about it in this situation. The rules are the rules and to implement a heavy-handed ban simply because it pisses off a vocal minority is a poor decision in my opinion.

The rules in golf are clear on this and we should follow suit. The assertion that chipping on the greens in TGC is some sort of “exploit” or “hack” is ridiculous. Chipping in TGC is not easy, not even when you’re 15-20 feet away – it’s not a slam dunk by any means. Chipping was one of the weakest parts of my game when I first started playing and was something that I had to work at to get better at. I’m fairly good at chipping now, but even when I’m chipping on the green it’s a risky play and is a shot I have to think through every time. For those who think chipping on the green is so easy and equate it with “hacking” or “cheating”, I challenge them to play a round where you chip instead of putt. Let me know how it turns out. It’s tough to judge the distance you need to carry, the roll, the break, etc etc - it’s simply flabbergasting how people in this thread are referring to it like it’s the easiest shot in the world to make.

I sometimes chip on the greens, particularly if I’m a good distance away from the hole, because it’s a better shot to play than putting. I would do the exact same thing in real life. It’s even more difficult for me given the resolution I have to play at to judge the break and distance for long putts – this new rule will ensure that I will go from having a 10% chance of making a cut in a tournament to having a 1% chance of making a cut.

Another point I’d wish to touch on is the fact that tournaments will be played on courses with extremely tricked out greens. The fact that we now have 1 less shot in our arsenal to combat some of the ridiculously difficult greens really takes away motivation to even play in these tournaments. What this rule will ensure is that there is an even greater disparity and gap between the top performers and those struggling to make the cut. I find it rather rich that the top performers tend to be the ones pushing the hardest to eliminate chipping on the greens. I get that some of you are gods in this game and can routinely put up scores in the 50’s – but to turn around and complain because players like me sometimes use a wedge to ensure that I’m not 3 putting on a hole because I missed a miniscule landing spot on my approach and ended up 75 feet away from the pin is a bit much. Hell, I can’t even tell you how many times I’ve 3 putted from within 10 feet because I’m putting on the side of Mount Everest. Taking away another option I have in this game and forcing me to play away from my strengths, in a uniform fashion alongside everyone else, is unfair to say the least.

There is so little variation in this game as it is – taking away chipping on the greens ensures that there are even fewer ways to play the game and thus benefits those that are skilled in playing it the “traditional” way. Think about it. Unlike in real life, where some golfers have better control or distance or putting styles etc, everyone in the TGC has the same carry distance, the same putting style, and play the rounds in a very uniform way. However, chipping vs putting on the green is a choice in strategy at times and is a variable in the game. By eliminating that, you take away one of the few variances and force everyone to play using the same static and uniform strategy and shot types. This means that those who are really good playing that way benefit; those (like me) who have a different strategy and different skillset in the game are punished and forced to play away from my strengths. Essentially now the only difference that will exist is in the wind conditions when people play, which is an even greater flaw and form of “cheating” than using a sand wedge on the green. It will now come down to who has the better wind conditions and the better ability to execute the same shots everyone else will play. This makes for a tournament experience that has far less diversity in play style and strategy, which is to the detriment of the tour.

For me personally, this rule change particularly irks me. I struggle to make the cut every week (it looks as if I might make my first cut this week) despite playing pretty solid. I have a very difficult time putting that is in part due to the resolution I have to play at, in part due to hit and miss execution of putts, and in part due to issues I’ve had with the grid and reading putts. I’ve had numerous occasions where the grid tells me it’s breaking one way and it breaks another – I know, get behind the ball and read it; you try doing that with a 1024x768 resolution. Usually in a round I’ll have to chip on the green because it’s the better play for me than risking a 4 putt. Now, however this is no longer an option for me. This will likely result in me putting it off the green so I can then chip because that’s better play than a 3 or 4 putt. To me, its patently unfair and ridiculous – I’m being punished because I’ve gotten better at chipping than I am putting. And why has this come about? From my perception it seems to be a decision made with little consultation as a result of sour grapes from players who tend to make cuts and be up a lot higher on the leaderboard than I am. This makes it particularly bitter for me – it’s quite something to have someone who shoots in the 50’s tell me to “get better”. To tell me that I should simply try harder and be forced to play the game the way they play the game instead of allowing me the freedom to play and make decisions on the course that I feel are best. What makes me sorer about this is the fact that things that are way more of an exploit than chipping on the green (170 yard sand wedge from the deep rough, waiting till the wind dies down), are ignored or not touched on while chipping on the green is where the crackdown happens. I don’t rely on chipping to shoot low, but it likely saves a few shots a round. When I play lights out I still miss/barely miss the cut and I’m pretty decent at golf in real life and in this game. This rule change simply benefits those who are already at the top (protecting them from further challenges) while hurting guys who struggle like me. Knowing that I now have 1 fewer shot type in my bag simply because some people here feel the need to force everyone to play exactly as they do is just irksome to say the least.

That said, I’ll respect the rule but I do hope it is reconsidered or changed. I like the idea of allowing chipping if your 50ft or more away from the hole – to me that seems like a fair compromise. Guys who are 50ft + away from the hole are gonna be more from my end of the spectrum anyways, so those at the top of the leaderboards week in and week out should really not give a crap. Given that you basically have to birdie every hole to even stand a chance at winning the tournament certainly indicates that this assertion is factually accurate. I am pretty pissed off about this (yes I know it’s a game, yadda yadda yadda) more so because I’ve worked hard to make the PGA tour and have worked hard to improve my game, but now I’m back to square 1 in a sense because a certain shot type has been arbitrarily removed from my arsenal. I’m very grateful for the guys that have put this whole things together and the volunteer hours that are put into this sort of enterprise. It’s really awesome and I hope my comments aren’t seen as meaningless and unappreciative b%&ing. While I am pissed, I do not mean any disrespect to the tour organizers etc and hope that my criticisms are seen as constructive and that my perspective is taken into account.

Sorry for the length of this, I felt these things needed to be said.

I would say I am an average player on this game but I could get the ball very close to the pin from 60 ft 9 times out of 10 with a lofted pitch or flop sot from the green. Its the percentage shot on this game, long putts are a big part of golf and a rule that makes players take on those long putts will only improve their putting

[classicphil]

And there are some players who I'm certain can lag putt it close 9 times out of 10 - that's my whole point. Its a percentage play for some players, not all - just as putting from that distance is for some, not all. That's why pros in real life putt instead of chip on greens - its the better play. This rule just forces people to all play the same way, which makes the game far less diverse and benefits some players to a great degree.