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Post by Brighttail on Jan 23, 2015 22:06:41 GMT -5
That said, I’ll respect the rule but I do hope it is reconsidered or changed. I like the idea of allowing chipping if your 50ft or more away from the hole – to me that seems like a fair compromise. Guys who are 50ft + away from the hole are gonna be more from my end of the spectrum anyways, so those at the top of the leaderboards week in and week out should really not give a crap. Given that you basically have to birdie every hole to even stand a chance at winning the tournament certainly indicates that this assertion is factually accurate. I am pretty pissed off about this (yes I know it’s a game, yadda yadda yadda) more so because I’ve worked hard to make the PGA tour and have worked hard to improve my game, but now I’m back to square 1 in a sense because a certain shot type has been arbitrarily removed from my arsenal. I’m very grateful for the guys that have put this whole things together and the volunteer hours that are put into this sort of enterprise. It’s really awesome and I hope my comments aren’t seen as meaningless and unappreciative b%&ing. While I am pissed, I do not mean any disrespect to the tour organizers etc and hope that my criticisms are seen as constructive and that my perspective is taken into account. Sorry for the length of this, I felt these things needed to be said. Hear hear and well spoken, sir. I could not agree more. I have offered multiple suggestion as a compromise and I'm a little disappointed that the admin haven't really taken into consideration anything but all or nothing. So I'll try another: The flop shot I'll agree is a ridiculously accurate shot and from 110 feet out I can get it within 5 feet no issue. So make the flop shot illegal on the green but allow chipping. A person can chip using all the way to a 6 iron I believe. I would love to meet any one of us who from 60, 70, 80, 100 feet can accurately get the ball within 10 feet 70% of the time or better with an elevation change AND a slope. There is just too much variance from hole to hole. Sure if you only played one hole you could master it, but every hole is different so I can't see anyone being able to abuse this type of shot. I'll say again to prevent people from chipping from 15 feet away with a loft wedge make a minimum distance. Problem solved. For those who say, "learn to putt" i find this a bit misleading. I know how to putt. I just shot a -16 on a very hilly course. But If in real life I don't have the strength to putt a ball 80 feet up a hill and get it close, why wouldn't I use a club that would guarantee me at least a shot? I go back again to Phil playing in the Ryder Cup over in Europe. That was a hell of a long putt he would have had to try and decided instead to chip. There wasn't a single complaint from the pros. Golf isn't a game that is played one way. Everyone plays it different. Every shot is played differently by different people. Some people's strength is accurate driving or long irons, others it is their short game. The beauty of golf is there is NO ONE WAY to play. I'm with classicphil here. I can play a good round. Stringing four rounds that are great is something I'm working on. I've missed one cut and made two. I'm not an elite golfer by any means, but I believe we should be allowed within the rules of the game to use what clubs we can on any particular shot. If someone is observed abusing the 'spirit' of the game by chipping every other hole, then pull them aside individually and have a talk with them, but don't punish the other 95% for their abuse. That isn't what rules are meant to do. Please reconsider. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2015 22:08:53 GMT -5
And there are some players who I'm certain can lag putt it close 9 times out of 10 - that's my whole point. Its a percentage play for some players, not all - just as putting from that distance is for some, not all. That's why pros in real life putt instead of chip on greens - its the better play. This rule just forces people to all play the same way, which makes the game far less diverse and benefits some players to a great degree. I disagree there is a lot more skill in putting it close from 60 ft than flopping it from that distance in this game. It is unrealistic its way too easy to get that control from high lofted flops and pitch shot. I even get backspin from a flop shot out of heavy rough. Putting is a test and best and most realistic part of the game in my opinion |
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Post by classicphil on Jan 23, 2015 23:45:02 GMT -5
I didn't say that there was more skill involved in those shots Hammer, re-read what I wrote. I said that for some players a chip shot is the shot type most likely to get them the best result; for other players putting is the shot type more likely to get them the best results. I did not comment on how much skill is required for either shot, just that some people are better chipping in some situations than others and vice versa.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2015 23:59:05 GMT -5
This has gotten out of hand ... and I think all common sense has been removed from logical thinking.
Short chipping on a green is stupid. It shouldn't be done.
When faced with a long putt where you have no way to read the green, knowing it's a severe uphill putt with crazy breaks. I am going to consider my options.
If chipping is one of those options, and it is within the rules of golf (14-1) and, I know there is no way I am going to get my putter there.
I am going to chip. You want to ban me from that tournament. fine.
I have only chipped twice in this game out of over 375 rounds.
Some of these green that show up on these courses are ridiculous. And for the two times I have chipped ... they were not the greatest results.
But, I made it up to a point where the ball didn't roll back down past the original spot where I attempted to PUTT up to the hole the stroke before.
On Second thought --- For those that think its OK to wait out the wind for better conditions ... consider this not a cheat --- and to think chipping on the green is ... well then, change the rules of golf.
It may be unethical, or poor etiquette in some peoples eyes, but it IS LEGAL, like it or not.
There is always going to be those that cannot resist cheating to gain an unfair advantage. But to call someone playing within the rules of golf - whether you agree with it, or not, it's a legal stroke and within the rules.
There is a hell of a lot of other exploits used in this game and plenty of things that can be done to eliminate it ...but I don't see these being addressed.
I find this issue childish. In addition, if it is going to be like this in the future (as there are going to be other issues), I have no desire to continue.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2015 0:00:00 GMT -5
I didn't say that there was more skill involved in those shots Hammer, re-read what I wrote. I said that for some players a chip shot is the shot type most likely to get them the best result; for other players putting is the shot type more likely to get them the best results. I did not comment on how much skill is required for either shot, just that some people are better chipping in some situations than others and vice versa. if you are better at chipping on the green than you are at putting on the green, then you are simply chipping way too often... |
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Post by Brighttail on Jan 24, 2015 0:20:03 GMT -5
I didn't say that there was more skill involved in those shots Hammer, re-read what I wrote. I said that for some players a chip shot is the shot type most likely to get them the best result; for other players putting is the shot type more likely to get them the best results. I did not comment on how much skill is required for either shot, just that some people are better chipping in some situations than others and vice versa. if you are better at chipping on the green than you are at putting on the green, then you are simply chipping way too often... I look at it this way, if you are chipping on the green more than putting than these people must really suck at putting, so when they have a 10 foot putt with a slight break, they probably aren't going to make it anyway. We all know that for short distances putting is far more accurate than chipping, period. I say let these people chip from 15 feet, I'll beat them anyway cause if they are doing it that consistently, their game is not that great to begin with. I'm with DDawg here. The number of times I have done it in tourney play has been probably 3 times and that is over 400 rounds. The number of times it comes up to have to chip from a long distance is so miniscule I cannot believe we are actually debating a rule to ban it. Like DDawg the results weren't great but they were far better than the alternative which I have tried numerous times and failed at dramatically. In fact two of those times I chipped on the green came AFTER a failed attempt to putt. This mob mentality of "it is just wrong" and it is "bad etiquette" is just silly and lacking common sense. In golf there is no wrong golf shot. Those that say their local club doesn't allow it..great they do that cause it can damage the green when 'non pros' do it incorrectly. Do you think these same clubs when they host the PGA enforce this 'club rule'? Hell no. If the moderators/tournament marshals are concerned about fair play, that is fine. The overwhelming complaints I heard were people who were constantly chipping from 10-25 feet to avoid breaks. Talk to those players, confront them, sanction them if necessary, but don't punish the other 99% of us who may decide it is the best club for one shot out of one-hundred, two-hundred, five-hundred. You are cutting off a finger cause of a sliver. Find a reasonable compromise, please. |
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Post by classicphil on Jan 24, 2015 0:29:10 GMT -5
Sure Taste, but I also didn't say that. I was referring to "some situations" where some people are better putting and some are better chipping etc etc. By those situations I mean when you're a long ways from the cup or have an extremely uphill putt etc etc.
I would also like to re-iterate a point I touched on earlier. In theory I don't have an issue with rules being made and enforced to keep the game as clean and fair as possible. In this case I don't think this decision really does that, as I think it objectively helps some players to the detriment of other players, takes away from the diversity of play styles and strategies in the game, etc etc. However, I would like to point out that this decision was made unilaterally with little to no input from the community. I think it would have been better if some consultation occurred, or a poll was taken, an email sent out to all tour players asking for feedback or something along those lines. Instead, a draconian decision was imposed on all of us with some vague descriptions of apparent "abuse" that was going on justifying the decision (how one can "abuse" the game by making shots that are legal requires some pretzel like justification, but that's beside the point). I think it would have been much better if there was more transparency in this process, that input was taken into account from the players, and that the incidents of "abuse" were detailed and fully discussed so that we had some idea as to why this drastic action was taken. How many people were chipping frequently on the greens? How many offenders were finishing top 10 or 20 by doing this? Rather we're left in the dark and all we can do is speculate. Who knows, maybe I would've supported this decision if more information was provided as to why this action was needed. Vaguely alluding to "abuse" from some of the players isn't enough to go by. As it stands, this just seems to be a knee-jerk reaction to placate a few shrill complaints.
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Post by misternic on Jan 24, 2015 0:46:45 GMT -5
I have chipped on the green, not often, but I have done it. I also think this is a fair rule.
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bob5453
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Post by bob5453 on Jan 24, 2015 1:12:58 GMT -5
I only play for the fun of it and will be lucky to make a cut, but if I come across this putt in the tourney where I have no grid, then I will probably use a flop shot, it's OK if I am DQ later.   |
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Post by SMIFFYLFC79 on Jan 24, 2015 2:35:37 GMT -5
I only play for the fun of it and will be lucky to make a cut, but if I come across this putt in the tourney where I have no grid, then I will probably use a flop shot, it's OK if I am DQ later.
WELL DONE ADMINISTRATORS FOR MAKING THE RULE.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2015 2:38:59 GMT -5
I only play for the fun of it and will be lucky to make a cut, but if I come across this putt in the tourney where I have no grid, then I will probably use a flop shot, it's OK if I am DQ later. I feel that this would be a borderline use of a chip vs. a putt in the photo given ... While I am an advocate in support of rule 14-1 ... this is still a very make-able 2 putt shot (and 3 putts if you messed up bad), as far as I am concerned. The reason why, is two fold, the first is it is only about half of the max distance of the putter (so distance isn't an issue). The second is, just because you are outside the grid area in this particular case, you can tell it is not a severe up-sloped green from your position on this green. By using the "Q" key, you can clearly get enough information on the slope/break from the hole to the point where the grid ends, to make a good estimate on where to play the break. So while I wouldn't condemn you for using the option to do anything other than putt ... I would think this would not be a valid time to do such, in my own personal opinion. |
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Post by mellowswe on Jan 24, 2015 3:07:53 GMT -5
This is obviously a topic that a lot of people take an interest in and I think constructive criticism is always good.
I just wish that everyone on both sides of the argument would show some respect to the group of people who take time out of their lives EVERY DAY to bring all of us these tours.
I'm sure you can make your point without threatening to leave or gung-ho cries of support...
Remember guys, it's a game and we're all here to have fun. No one is getting paid, either to play here or work here.
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Post by classicphil on Jan 24, 2015 3:18:54 GMT -5
This is obviously a topic that a lot of people take an interest in and I think constructive criticism is always good. I just wish that everyone on both sides of the argument would show some respect to the group of people who take time out of their lives EVERY DAY to bring all of us these tours. I'm sure you can make your point without threatening to leave or gung-ho cries of support... Remember guys, it's a game and we're all here to have fun. No one is getting paid, either to play here or work here. Totally agree. I would like to reiterate that while irked about this decision, I've offered my comments as constructive criticism and feedback to the admins. I have nothing but total and utter appreciation for those who put in hours of volunteer time to make this all possible. That said, I think its great that we can have a conversation about this and discuss ways to make things better. |
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Post by classicphil on Jan 24, 2015 3:22:38 GMT -5
I only play for the fun of it and will be lucky to make a cut, but if I come across this putt in the tourney where I have no grid, then I will probably use a flop shot, it's OK if I am DQ later. WAH WAH WAH, that's all ive read on this so far from at least 80% of competitors, players quoting they have chipped or flopped on the green, players quoting its legal in real life, WAH WAH WAH, its a fu*$ing GAME and tgc administrators are trying to make THE GAME, so that everybody is singing from the same hymn sheet, if ur ON THE GREEN, by 1inch and u have 162ft putt and ur putter goes 162ft, tough sh*t, 3 putt if u have to, not get the sw out and flop it up to the hole, which is what players would do in competition, I myself and many whom I compete with would suck it up and putt even if it cost us a shot, floppers would not cos of them possibly losing a shot, if ur on fringe then fair dues flop ur on the FRINGE,
Respectfully, everyone is singing from the same hymn sheet in all circumstances in this game. The difference, of course, is what an individual chooses to make as a shot. Do I club up or drop the ball back in my stance? Do I attempt a lag put or do I pull out my wedge? Banning chip shots on green doesn't make everyone sing less or more from the same hymn sheet, it just takes away on shot type in a given situation (which will benefit some but be detrimental to others). |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2015 3:29:35 GMT -5
This is obviously a topic that a lot of people take an interest in and I think constructive criticism is always good. I just wish that everyone on both sides of the argument would show some respect to the group of people who take time out of their lives EVERY DAY to bring all of us these tours. I'm sure you can make your point without threatening to leave or gung-ho cries of support... Remember guys, it's a game and we're all here to have fun. No one is getting paid, either to play here or work here. I would not begrudge anyone hitting a wedge from extreme circumstances, my worry is people consistently flying the ball all the way to the pin on a vast majority of long putts. As I said long putting is a bit part of golf as is weather you play in the conditions you're given, not sit and wait in the clubhouse for the wind to die down. Is the score we shoot really as important as the way we shot it |
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