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Post by johneric on Jan 23, 2015 17:19:19 GMT -5
I would love to give you an honest answer to your great question. Basically, one of the reasons I haven't made the time to play the tours but instead of chosen to play online with friends is because I personally am not a fan of seeing the crazy scores put up by the founders of the TGCtours while knowing that these are the same people that are making judgement calls on others. I think it just came down to the fact that the more time that has passed the more I've seen things that I personally don't feel are appropriate and I will leave it at that..I've made a decision to not be active in the games that are taking place on the TGCtours that doesn't mean that I'm not interested in it's progression or lack thereof. Make no mistake about this, I love HBS and The Golf Club, I find it to be the best game I've ever played hands down so anything involved with the game I like being part of the discussion. I certainly don't expect anyone to agree with my opinions and I appreciate being able to share them. Copy/Pasted from another post of mine from earlier. I think that your bold statement is way-off base. My earlier post: Tim is 0-fer on cuts, I've made 1 and missed 2, and Doyley won q-school, and anyone who has ever played a round with him knows he hits the ball all over the place but is good at scrambling and putting, and that's why he scores well. Dale missed the cut this week, Scott W hasn't quite played up to the level he is capable of. Same with Jeff, although he's had a couple great rounds, but just struggling to find the consistency.
We are not gaming the system by playing, and conflicts of interest is addressed specifically in our bylaws, which are free for anyone to read on the main website.So you expect us to put all this time and effort into creating/operating the tour, but not play? Or not play to the best of our ability? That doesn't make sense, at all. And, just for information, we have multiple tournament marshals that spot check every round requested to be spot checked, and all the leaders, including Doyley/staff. These guys are about as far from the decision making process as they can be, they participate in no internal discussions. They just check for invalid rounds and verify scores. Doyley is obviously a great player no matter how you want to slice it and in my dealings with him a very nice chap. Of course I don't expect you not to participate in the foundation that you've so worked hard to create, but all it takes is few ill advised situations to spoil to party for everyone. There is absolutely no fault in you feeling vindicated on how you guys run TGCtours at all and I respect you're right to verbalize that, but there is nothing you can say to me that is going to change my mind about how I feel about the situation based on my experiences. The grey area just leaves me scratching my head... |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2015 17:23:57 GMT -5
Kudos for standing up for what you believe in. I work in an industry where i see reactionary rules and policies crop up and they never work out very well. My solution is simple, don't play a tournament where this will be an issue. Coyote, there are many places this may be an issue, so I'll move to the European tour or not play at all, who knows? The admins have stated it has occurred enough to affect the leader board significantly and I will take them for their word on that. I just think it would be better to stick a definitive number into the equation. I would propose a compromise. Pick a number and make the rule state: "If while on the green, a player is 50 feet or father away from the hole, the player may use any club to strike the shot." Here are my reasons: - It is easy to police via replay - I can't imagine anyone holing 50-60 foot chips with any type of unfair accuracy - It recognizes those golf purists out there and our views - Anyone would be able to do it without feeling that it breaks the etiquette of the game since it is an individual rule. - It is a fair compromise that I feel takes away the unfair advantage the moderators are trying to prevent while allowing a legal shot that we have seen many pros execute. (Heck I have used a 7iron on the green from time to time in RL) I would like to think that we in the golf community can request arbitration or at least work to come to an amicable and reasonable solution we can all agree with that is fair to all sides. So if you are 50 ft away you just reach in your bag for your lob wedge not because the putt looks too tricky,the problem with the game its way too easy to get super control with your short wedge pitch and lob shots, rarely does the ball roll much after landing even on the firmest greens. I think the putting is the most realistic part of the game, and love making a good lag putt from 70ft |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2015 17:24:36 GMT -5
Let me get a reply in on this issue, and those of you who are against this rule, please pay close attention:
We, the field, are policing this, we do not have to turn in everyone who chips/flops/pitches from the greens. If we see somebody flopping from on top of that hill because he most likely could not get the ball to stop down that 5 foot slope, we do not have to report him.
If we see somebody chip from 40 yards out, but still on the green, we do not have to report that.
The spirit of this rule was to keep players from chipping manageable putts, this is what we need to be reporting, 15-25 foot manageable putts that were chipped just to null the breaks, not even red line breaks, I see a player do this multiple times in a round in the 50's this week where all the breaks were nothing more than green grid lines and all putts would have been inside 30 feet. These are putts that nobody, and i mean nobody in real life would chip unless they were just ducking around and having fun, no serious golfer would ever chip from that distance when a putter is very very manageable.
Nobody is forcing you into reporting anything, but do keep in mind, fair play is what is important here, this would become a crapfest if chipping become so widely used for all putts outside of 10 feet, and many players would simply pack their bags and move on, so you can see how its not good for the sport.
Some of you keep coming back to the "real life" comparison in the rules, but totally ignoring the "real life" part when it comes to chipping 15 foot putts, choose your argument, but don't flip flop on it, it just makes you look silly. Dont say its ok to slap your wife,...if you think it dont hurt her, you get the point?
Fair Play is all this is about, not about mimicking real world rules, this is not the real world, things work differently here, and in return, we have to adjust the rules to compensate. "We" as in everyone here.
Again, feel free not to report players who are flopping or chipping from certain spots on the green, but if you see players chipping multiple times, especially from short, raise that right hand and pull out the yellow card.
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Post by Brighttail on Jan 23, 2015 17:36:27 GMT -5
Let me get a reply in on this issue, and those of you who are against this rule, please pay close attention: We, the field, are policing this, we do not have to turn in everyone who chips/flops/pitches from the greens. If we see somebody flopping from on top of that hill because he most likely could not get the ball to stop down that 5 foot slope, we do not have to report him. If we see somebody chip from 40 yards out, but still on the green, we do not have to report that. The spirit of this rule was to keep players from chipping manageable putts, this is what we need to be reporting, 15-25 foot manageable putts that were chipped just to null the breaks, not even red line breaks, I see a player do this multiple times in a round in the 50's this week where all the breaks were nothing more than green grid lines and all putts would have been inside 30 feet. These are putts that nobody, and i mean nobody in real life would chip unless they were just ducking around and having fun, no serious golfer would ever chip from that distance when a putter is very very manageable. Nobody is forcing you into reporting anything, but do keep in mind, fair play is what is important here, this would become a crapfest if chipping become so widely used for all putts outside of 10 feet, and many players would simply pack their bags and move on, so you can see how its not good for the sport. Some of you keep coming back to the "real life" comparison in the rules, but totally ignoring the "real life" part when it comes to chipping 15 foot putts, choose your argument, but don't flip flop on it, it just makes you look silly. Dont say its ok to slap your wife,...if you think it dont hurt her, you get the point? Fair Play is all this is about, not about mimicking real world rules, this is not the real world, things work differently here, and in return, we have to adjust the rules to compensate. "We" as in everyone here. Again, feel free not to report players who are flopping or chipping from certain spots on the green, but if you see players chipping multiple times, especially from short, raise that right hand and pull out the yellow card. I firmly agree with you that this would be the desired solution if all things were create equal. But if you read through the thread you'll see one person say, "I chip from 70 feet out" while another person says, "I love the feel of lagging a 70 foot putt" People see this issue through their own personal prism. While you might not report someone who chips from 70 feet, others would in a heart beat and the administrators are left in the same situation where they started, it is arbitrary. That is why i suggested a compromise of a particular length. Purists like myself think it should be allowed on every shot but recognize that it can be abused. People who believe putting should be on every shot can recognize there are limitations of peoples computer's mice when it comes to longer/sloped shots and realize that people won't be able to hole these with any type of accuracy. The 50 feet rule that i offered up is a compromise that I would hope both sides would be able to agree upon. All or nothing rules offer no compromise. As I said personally I might chip/flop a shot once every 5-6 rounds. I'd like to think I'm good enough to get it close enough to putt on 99% of the time, but there are times you mishit, don't make a slope and the ball rolls back and you are 50, 60, 80, 100 feet away. I'm all about compromise and finding amicable solutions for all involved  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2015 17:39:44 GMT -5
Let me get a reply in on this issue, and those of you who are against this rule, please pay close attention: We, the field, are policing this, we do not have to turn in everyone who chips/flops/pitches from the greens. If we see somebody flopping from on top of that hill because he most likely could not get the ball to stop down that 5 foot slope, we do not have to report him. If we see somebody chip from 40 yards out, but still on the green, we do not have to report that. The spirit of this rule was to keep players from chipping manageable putts, this is what we need to be reporting, 15-25 foot manageable putts that were chipped just to null the breaks, not even red line breaks, I see a player do this multiple times in a round in the 50's this week where all the breaks were nothing more than green grid lines and all putts would have been inside 30 feet. These are putts that nobody, and i mean nobody in real life would chip unless they were just ducking around and having fun, no serious golfer would ever chip from that distance when a putter is very very manageable. Nobody is forcing you into reporting anything, but do keep in mind, fair play is what is important here, this would become a crapfest if chipping become so widely used for all putts outside of 10 feet, and many players would simply pack their bags and move on, so you can see how its not good for the sport. Some of you keep coming back to the "real life" comparison in the rules, but totally ignoring the "real life" part when it comes to chipping 15 foot putts, choose your argument, but don't flip flop on it, it just makes you look silly. Dont say its ok to slap your wife,...if you think it dont hurt her, you get the point? Fair Play is all this is about, not about mimicking real world rules, this is not the real world, things work differently here, and in return, we have to adjust the rules to compensate. "We" as in everyone here. Again, feel free not to report players who are flopping or chipping from certain spots on the green, but if you see players chipping multiple times, especially from short, raise that right hand and pull out the yellow card. To be honest I didn't realise it was happening so much, but chipping from 15 feet on the green is not golf in my eyes. At the end of the day your score for a round is just a number its more about how you got it. Why do people need to make it easier for themselves? are they so worried about having their name near top of the leaderboard. Its a shame when that's all that matters to some people |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2015 17:41:48 GMT -5
Let me get a reply in on this issue, and those of you who are against this rule, please pay close attention: We, the field, are policing this, we do not have to turn in everyone who chips/flops/pitches from the greens. If we see somebody flopping from on top of that hill because he most likely could not get the ball to stop down that 5 foot slope, we do not have to report him. If we see somebody chip from 40 yards out, but still on the green, we do not have to report that. The spirit of this rule was to keep players from chipping manageable putts, this is what we need to be reporting, 15-25 foot manageable putts that were chipped just to null the breaks, not even red line breaks, I see a player do this multiple times in a round in the 50's this week where all the breaks were nothing more than green grid lines and all putts would have been inside 30 feet. These are putts that nobody, and i mean nobody in real life would chip unless they were just ducking around and having fun, no serious golfer would ever chip from that distance when a putter is very very manageable. Nobody is forcing you into reporting anything, but do keep in mind, fair play is what is important here, this would become a crapfest if chipping become so widely used for all putts outside of 10 feet, and many players would simply pack their bags and move on, so you can see how its not good for the sport. Some of you keep coming back to the "real life" comparison in the rules, but totally ignoring the "real life" part when it comes to chipping 15 foot putts, choose your argument, but don't flip flop on it, it just makes you look silly. Dont say its ok to slap your wife,...if you think it dont hurt her, you get the point? Fair Play is all this is about, not about mimicking real world rules, this is not the real world, things work differently here, and in return, we have to adjust the rules to compensate. "We" as in everyone here. Again, feel free not to report players who are flopping or chipping from certain spots on the green, but if you see players chipping multiple times, especially from short, raise that right hand and pull out the yellow card. I firmly agree with you that this would be the desired solution if all things were create equal. But if you read through the thread you'll see one person say, "I chip from 70 feet out" while another person says, "I love the feel of lagging a 70 foot putt" People see this issue through their own personal prism. While you might not report someone who chips from 70 feet, others would in a heart beat and the administrators are left in the same situation where they started, it is arbitrary. That is why i suggested a compromise of a particular length. Purists like myself think it should be allowed on every shot but recognize that it can be abused. People who believe putting should be on every shot can recognize there are limitations of peoples computer's mice when it comes to longer/sloped shots and realize that people won't be able to hole these with any type of accuracy. The 50 feet rule that i offered up is a compromise that I would hope both sides would be able to agree upon. All or nothing rules offer no compromise. As I said personally I might chip/flop a shot once every 5-6 rounds. I'd like to think I'm good enough to get it close enough to putt on 99% of the time, but there are times you mishit, don't make a slope and the ball rolls back and you are 50, 60, 80, 100 feet away. I'm all about compromise and finding amicable solutions for all involved 50 foot imo is a very manageable putt, so i disagree with that notion. imo, if you can putt the ball and stay on the green, you should putt the ball. now, if the green were 100yards wide, and you had no chance at even 3 putting, pull out an iron. but lets be real here, how many courses on the tours will give us more than one or two of those situations i have described in this post. just because ppl report certain shots does not mean the accused automatically gets a ban. stay true to the fair play part and ignore everything else, and this problem will sort itself out, trust me. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2015 17:48:07 GMT -5
I firmly agree with you that this would be the desired solution if all things were create equal. But if you read through the thread you'll see one person say, "I chip from 70 feet out" while another person says, "I love the feel of lagging a 70 foot putt" People see this issue through their own personal prism. While you might not report someone who chips from 70 feet, others would in a heart beat and the administrators are left in the same situation where they started, it is arbitrary. That is why i suggested a compromise of a particular length. Purists like myself think it should be allowed on every shot but recognize that it can be abused. People who believe putting should be on every shot can recognize there are limitations of peoples computer's mice when it comes to longer/sloped shots and realize that people won't be able to hole these with any type of accuracy. The 50 feet rule that i offered up is a compromise that I would hope both sides would be able to agree upon. All or nothing rules offer no compromise. As I said personally I might chip/flop a shot once every 5-6 rounds. I'd like to think I'm good enough to get it close enough to putt on 99% of the time, but there are times you mishit, don't make a slope and the ball rolls back and you are 50, 60, 80, 100 feet away. I'm all about compromise and finding amicable solutions for all involved 50 foot imo is a very manageable putt, so i disagree with that notion. imo, if you can putt the ball and stay on the green, you should putt the ball. now, if the green were 100yards wide, and you had no chance at even 3 putting, pull out an iron. but lets be real here, how many courses on the tours will give us more than one or two of those situations i have described in this post. just because ppl report certain shots does not mean the accused automatically gets a ban. stay true to the fair play part and ignore everything else, and this problem will sort itself out, trust me. tbh I have been playing this game for quite some time and can't remember a 100 ft putt but would like to give it a try. It is quite a simple shot with wedge, I think its good to test ourselves with long putts |
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Post by Brighttail on Jan 23, 2015 17:50:40 GMT -5
50 foot imo is a very manageable putt, so i disagree with that notion. imo, if you can putt the ball and stay on the green, you should putt the ball. now, if the green were 100yards wide, and you had no chance at even 3 putting, pull out an iron. but lets be real here, how many courses on the tours will give us more than one or two of those situations i have described in this post. just because ppl report certain shots does not mean the accused automatically gets a ban. stay true to the fair play part and ignore everything else, and this problem will sort itself out, trust me. I agree with you in that it should be a rare instance that a person should have to chip/flop. I'm under 1% of my shots. I suggested the 50-60 foot rule because there has to be a line, a tangible distance that can be enforced. It is also a compromise and in good debate where laws/rules are made compromise is often the best way to go about doing things. The way I read the rule was the players were to police it and if it was reported and verified, despite the circumstances, the penalty would be disqualification. Now if the tournament marshals have the ability to take each 'complaint' on a shot by shot basis and have some set of guidelines in which to rule, AND could legitimately rule it is a legal chip putt and allow the player to continue, this might be a reasonable compromise. Provided if we as players knew the guidelines. The problem which I see with this is once again it would be arbitrary from one tourney marshal to another. having a set distance of lets say 60 feet, would eliminate all question and as you said, it wouldn't come up much anyway. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2015 17:53:23 GMT -5
brighttail, try 120+ feet and we can have a discussion.
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Post by Brighttail on Jan 23, 2015 18:02:27 GMT -5
brighttail, try 120+ feet and we can have a discussion. Been there, done that. I think the longest putt i have personally seen was 144 feet, don't remember where. Seriously is there something wrong with trying to find a compromise? I'm trying to offer a solution for what I view as a quite draconian ruling. I'm willing to concede that chipping can and has been abused by people. I'm trying to find a compromise where in select situations, it can be acceptable. Even under my proposed change, how many shots in a four round tournament is one person going to have that would be beyond 60 feet? One? Two max? For the record putting at 144 feet even with DPI turned all the way up and I maxed out the distance, i still came up 30 feet short. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2015 18:03:29 GMT -5
Most players post just aces and holes in one on in the instant replay thread. Would be great to see some monster putts holed out
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2015 18:06:03 GMT -5
brighttail, try 120+ feet and we can have a discussion. Been there, done that. I think the longest putt i have personally seen was 144 feet, don't remember where. Seriously is there something wrong with trying to find a compromise? I'm trying to offer a solution for what I view as a quite draconian ruling. I'm willing to concede that chipping can and has been abused by people. I'm trying to find a compromise where in select situations, it can be acceptable. Even under my proposed change, how many shots in a four round tournament is one person going to have that would be beyond 60 feet? One? Two max? For the record putting at 144 feet even with DPI turned all the way up and I maxed out the distance, i still came up 30 feet short. i simply dont agree bright, 60 feet is way too short to say "the hell with it, ima chip this" offer up all the solutions you want, im not the one who can make the change, im just here disagreeing with you, i have that right, same as you have yours. 3 putts are a real thing in golf, why should it not be in tgc? |
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Post by slickhenry on Jan 23, 2015 18:13:23 GMT -5
Stupid and not well thought out policy. Saying this as a golfer, a gamer and a golf referee.
I "game" the system by putting from the rough because I prefer that. Should that be illegal as well?
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Post by Brighttail on Jan 23, 2015 18:14:46 GMT -5
Been there, done that. I think the longest putt i have personally seen was 144 feet, don't remember where. Seriously is there something wrong with trying to find a compromise? I'm trying to offer a solution for what I view as a quite draconian ruling. I'm willing to concede that chipping can and has been abused by people. I'm trying to find a compromise where in select situations, it can be acceptable. Even under my proposed change, how many shots in a four round tournament is one person going to have that would be beyond 60 feet? One? Two max? For the record putting at 144 feet even with DPI turned all the way up and I maxed out the distance, i still came up 30 feet short. i simply dont agree bright, 60 feet is way too short to say "the hell with it, ima chip this" offer up all the solutions you want, im not the one who can make the change, im just here disagreeing with you, i have that right, same as you have yours. 3 putts are a real thing in golf, why should it not be in tgc? Fair point, and I agree, you have the right to disagree, this is why it is called discussion or debate. 3 putts should be a part of the game, I go back to the example I had on Coyote this week. The problem was not the distance, it was the 38in slope I had to go out. I tried four separate times with me having aimed well past the hole and it would not go up the slope. The techie in me says it might have to do with the new putting structure, which I have found I have to put more on up hill putts than i used to and less on down hill putts that i have to, but I also believe it may be a limitation of the mouse I'm using. Even using an accelerated foreward putting stroke and it would not go up. For me personally a 60 foot put that had a small incline or decline I'm putting this, but in the example I just gave I'm not sure I can legitimately get it up the slope. Having the reverse would be no issue. 38in going down would never be an issue. |
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Post by Brighttail on Jan 23, 2015 18:15:51 GMT -5
Stupid and not well thought out policy. Saying this as a golfer, a gamer and a golf referee. I "game" the system by putting from the rough because I prefer that. Should that be illegal as well? Excellent point. Should putting off the fringe or from the rough be disallowed? I consistently will put from the rough if i'm 5 yards away, it is more accurate |
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