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Post by jwfickett on Jan 23, 2015 16:23:00 GMT -5
John if you're not even playing, why do you care so much? I'm not asking to be terse, I'm legitimately curious. I would love to give you an honest answer to your great question. Basically, one of the reasons I haven't made the time to play the tours but instead of chosen to play online with friends is because I personally am not a fan of seeing the crazy scores put up by the founders of the TGCtours while knowing that these are the same people that are making judgement calls on others. I think it just came down to the fact that the more time that has passed the more I've seen things that I personally don't feel are appropriate and I will leave it at that..I've made a decision to not be active in the games that are taking place on the TGCtours that doesn't mean that I'm not interested in it's progression or lack thereof. Make no mistake about this, I love HBS and The Golf Club, I find it to be the best game I've ever played hands down so anything involved with the game I like being part of the discussion. I certainly don't expect anyone to agree with my opinions and I appreciate being able to share them. Copy/Pasted from another post of mine from earlier. I think that your bold statement is way-off base. My earlier post: Tim is 0-fer on cuts, I've made 1 and missed 2, and Doyley won q-school, and anyone who has ever played a round with him knows he hits the ball all over the place but is good at scrambling and putting, and that's why he scores well. Dale missed the cut this week, Scott W hasn't quite played up to the level he is capable of. Same with Jeff, although he's had a couple great rounds, but just struggling to find the consistency.
We are not gaming the system by playing, and conflicts of interest is addressed specifically in our bylaws, which are free for anyone to read on the main website.So you expect us to put all this time and effort into creating/operating the tour, but not play? Or not play to the best of our ability? That doesn't make sense, at all. And, just for information, we have multiple tournament marshals that spot check every round requested to be spot checked, and all the leaders, including Doyley/staff. These guys are about as far from the decision making process as they can be, they participate in no internal discussions. They just check for invalid rounds and verify scores. |
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Post by jwfickett on Jan 23, 2015 16:26:31 GMT -5
Your concerns are valid, BT, but as I stated previously, the rule must be brightline or else it becomes grayer and grayer and unenforceable. It's better to put everyone on the same page than to case-by-case something that is subjective and nearly impossible to police. It's a matter of logistics on our part, we're not trying to make people play worse, just reign in the people that are gaming the system.
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Post by blueorfe on Jan 23, 2015 16:26:45 GMT -5
Everyone knows about this, there is no need for me to elaborate.. I don't want to let the cat out of the bag in an open forum for the fear it may cause others to use this to their advantage. I must be a dummy because I never knew about this. You and me both Tim? I have never heard of this before. If I'm buried in the rough I take my medicine and just whack it as far as I can up the fairway and move on. |
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Post by SweetTeeBag on Jan 23, 2015 16:28:08 GMT -5
Greetings, I'm going to start this post by saying I fully understand the intention of the Tour Administrators behind this rule change. There were a select number of people who were using "chipping on the green" as a way to avoid the break of the green on small to medium putts and thus gaining what is perceived to be an advantage of others who putt instead. While the intention of the rule is fine, the problem is as the saying goes, 'the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.' Allow me to explain. 1. The rules of golf allow any club to be used on any shot, anywhere. 2. There are a slew of videos you can check on YouTube that shows pros of all caliber, including Phil Mickelson in the Ryder Cup. While I understand there will be those people who say, this is a game and due to the fact that chipping here is not like real life we have to regulate it. A fair point but it still takes practice to do it effectively. While putting is effected by the break of the green I do not think in this game putting is effected by wind speed as it is in RL. Chipping here is most definitely effected by wind speed AND slope. This type of shot is not as easy as some claim and it does take practice. Still I will admit that on a shot that is 13feet out using a lob wedge that will go 12 feet you can be pretty accurate, so there are some cases where, yes it will be easier. All that being said, the vast majority of players do NOT use this tactic, so the rule that is suddenly being thrust upon is is a rather large reactionary response to a very small problem. It is obvious that people have complained about this to the directors, my question would be, exactly how many different people do this? I can't imagine the number being higher than 8 or 10. Would it not have been easier and better to check out their game/ghost, determine they were using something contrary to the spirit and have an individual chat with them? You do this for people who are suspected of hitting the ball straight all the time. If you were going to install a rule it would have been far easier and better to make a rule about general fairness. People who are determined to 'exploit' a weakness in the game shall be warned, then dealt with. Chipping 15 times a round would definitely fall under this category. Please understand I come at this as a person who rarely uses the PW/LW on the green. The times where I use it are severe elevation changes or when I can't even get a proper read on the putt due to the fact there is no grid for the first 1/2 of the putt. This rule basically states that I have to be penalized and "GUESS" the slope of the green because my ball landed so far away instead of using a valid shot approved by the rules of golf! Let me repeat that, cause it bears repeating. If i'm 80, 90, 100 feet away and I cannot see the slope of the green for the first 40,50,60 feet, this rule says that I MUST GUESS, approximate, throw caution to the wind and/or hit n hope that I end up somewhere in the vicinity where I think the slope is. All this because I'm not allowed to use a legal and valid shot under the rules of golf. Do the administrators believe that from this distance I am a lock to hole it out? To not allow a chip/flop/bump n run shot from a distance where a person cannot even see a grid is utterly ridiculous. I would even go far as say that it is completely unfair rule to force a player to putt without the aid of a grid in a tournament that uses and allows the grid. In short, this new rule is a reactionary rule, that in my opinion goes too far in trying to correct a minor problem that few golfers utilize. Rules like this are not good rules. Playing devil's advocate for a moment, people say, "it is ettiquette" or "learn to putt", but person who chips can say the same thing, "it is a legal shot" and "Learn to chip". When you are talking about legal shots, what makes one way better, more accepted than the other? At this point, I have to say I whole-heartedly disagree with this rule, especially when it comes to long putts where we don't have a grid to work with. I believe that the administrators would be better served not to make this rule and instead deal with the "offending people" on a case by case basis. If a person is viewed chipping consistently to avoid a break, then that break the "spirit of the rules", but to make a rule that punishes those of us who use this legal shot in specific cases, is simple wrong and I will not be a part of it. I am withdrawing from next weeks (week 4) tournament at Coyote Creek. I do this in part of protest of a badly written rule and part that I have been practicing that course many times this week and I know I have had several holes where i'm over 70 feet from the whole with severe elevation changes. This is the perfect course to illustrate my point. Good luck all, I hope the administrators will reconsider this rule as a whole and at the very least change it to reflect my valid concerns. BT Kudos for standing up for what you believe in. |
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Post by SweetTeeBag on Jan 23, 2015 16:29:39 GMT -5
I must be a dummy because I never knew about this. You and me both Tim? I have never heard of this before. If I'm buried in the rough I take my medicine and just whack it as far as I can up the fairway and move on. Like you weren't dangerous enough already Brad. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2015 16:31:25 GMT -5
Greetings, I'm going to start this post by saying I fully understand the intention of the Tour Administrators behind this rule change. There were a select number of people who were using "chipping on the green" as a way to avoid the break of the green on small to medium putts and thus gaining what is perceived to be an advantage of others who putt instead. While the intention of the rule is fine, the problem is as the saying goes, 'the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.' Allow me to explain. 1. The rules of golf allow any club to be used on any shot, anywhere. 2. There are a slew of videos you can check on YouTube that shows pros of all caliber, including Phil Mickelson in the Ryder Cup. While I understand there will be those people who say, this is a game and due to the fact that chipping here is not like real life we have to regulate it. A fair point but it still takes practice to do it effectively. While putting is effected by the break of the green I do not think in this game putting is effected by wind speed as it is in RL. Chipping here is most definitely effected by wind speed AND slope. This type of shot is not as easy as some claim and it does take practice. Still I will admit that on a shot that is 13feet out using a lob wedge that will go 12 feet you can be pretty accurate, so there are some cases where, yes it will be easier. All that being said, the vast majority of players do NOT use this tactic, so the rule that is suddenly being thrust upon is is a rather large reactionary response to a very small problem. It is obvious that people have complained about this to the directors, my question would be, exactly how many different people do this? I can't imagine the number being higher than 8 or 10. Would it not have been easier and better to check out their game/ghost, determine they were using something contrary to the spirit and have an individual chat with them? You do this for people who are suspected of hitting the ball straight all the time. If you were going to install a rule it would have been far easier and better to make a rule about general fairness. People who are determined to 'exploit' a weakness in the game shall be warned, then dealt with. Chipping 15 times a round would definitely fall under this category. Please understand I come at this as a person who rarely uses the PW/LW on the green. The times where I use it are severe elevation changes or when I can't even get a proper read on the putt due to the fact there is no grid for the first 1/2 of the putt. This rule basically states that I have to be penalized and "GUESS" the slope of the green because my ball landed so far away instead of using a valid shot approved by the rules of golf! Let me repeat that, cause it bears repeating. If i'm 80, 90, 100 feet away and I cannot see the slope of the green for the first 40,50,60 feet, this rule says that I MUST GUESS, approximate, throw caution to the wind and/or hit n hope that I end up somewhere in the vicinity where I think the slope is. All this because I'm not allowed to use a legal and valid shot under the rules of golf. Do the administrators believe that from this distance I am a lock to hole it out? To not allow a chip/flop/bump n run shot from a distance where a person cannot even see a grid is utterly ridiculous. I would even go far as say that it is completely unfair rule to force a player to putt without the aid of a grid in a tournament that uses and allows the grid. In short, this new rule is a reactionary rule, that in my opinion goes too far in trying to correct a minor problem that few golfers utilize. Rules like this are not good rules. Playing devil's advocate for a moment, people say, "it is ettiquette" or "learn to putt", but person who chips can say the same thing, "it is a legal shot" and "Learn to chip". When you are talking about legal shots, what makes one way better, more accepted than the other? At this point, I have to say I whole-heartedly disagree with this rule, especially when it comes to long putts where we don't have a grid to work with. I believe that the administrators would be better served not to make this rule and instead deal with the "offending people" on a case by case basis. If a person is viewed chipping consistently to avoid a break, then that break the "spirit of the rules", but to make a rule that punishes those of us who use this legal shot in specific cases, is simple wrong and I will not be a part of it. I am withdrawing from next weeks (week 4) tournament at Coyote Creek. I do this in part of protest of a badly written rule and part that I have been practicing that course many times this week and I know I have had several holes where i'm over 70 feet from the whole with severe elevation changes. This is the perfect course to illustrate my point. Good luck all, I hope the administrators will reconsider this rule as a whole and at the very least change it to reflect my valid concerns. BT The question is how many 100ft putts does one get in this game ,I had a 70ft putt recently and left myself 4 feet for par which I holed. I feel I would have cheated myself using a wedge to get closer because its easier |
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Post by Mitchblue on Jan 23, 2015 16:32:48 GMT -5
I must be a dummy because I never knew about this. You and me both Tim? I have never heard of this before. If I'm buried in the rough I take my medicine and just whack it as far as I can up the fairway and move on. Yep. It might go 100 yards or 25. |
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Post by Pubknight on Jan 23, 2015 16:35:31 GMT -5
I'm not quite getting the "I can't see the slope because the grid stops" argument.
You can move the putting marker back to you along the line from the cup to the golfer on even the longest of putts and see at any point if it is up or downhill (whether it's on the grid or not)
You can do the same side to side to get a sense for sidehill break as well.
The putting aim marker is practically a surveyor's tool for pete's sake.
You can also use the various putting cameras to look at the putt from any angle.
In short, there should be no mystery on what the terrain is doing, grid or no grid.
Maybe there isn't enough info to sink the putt... but how many 50+ foot putts do people plan on making?
You're just trying to get it in the ballpark.
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Post by SweetTeeBag on Jan 23, 2015 16:36:31 GMT -5
You and me both Tim? I have never heard of this before. If I'm buried in the rough I take my medicine and just whack it as far as I can up the fairway and move on. Yep. It might go 100 yards or 25. Normally the 3 iron is 207 yards but it is like 50% out of the deep rough and is lucky to go 100 yards |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2015 16:38:26 GMT -5
You and me both Tim? I have never heard of this before. If I'm buried in the rough I take my medicine and just whack it as far as I can up the fairway and move on. Yep. It might go 100 yards or 25. The heavy rough is funny in this game ,you can struggle to make 100yard with a 6 iron but you flop out of the heavy rough around the green and get backspin |
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Post by blueorfe on Jan 23, 2015 16:43:45 GMT -5
Yep. It might go 100 yards or 25. Normally the 3 iron is 207 yards but it is like 50% out of the deep rough and is lucky to go 100 yards I tend to use the the 6 or 7 iron when hitting out of the deep rough, less chance of a shank and it goes about as far as the 3 iron anyway. Enough discussion about golf anyway, I'm off to play a round or two, maybe try out a couple of new courses. |
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Post by Brighttail on Jan 23, 2015 16:44:36 GMT -5
Your concerns are valid, BT, but as I stated previously, the rule must be brightline or else it becomes grayer and grayer and unenforceable. It's better to put everyone on the same page than to case-by-case something that is subjective and nearly impossible to police. It's a matter of logistics on our part, we're not trying to make people play worse, just reign in the people that are gaming the system. How hard is it to review the players shot and see if he had a grid in front of him or not? This is quite easy. Replay the shot, if there isn't grid in front of him, chipping is allowed. I played Coyote today and was 60 feet out with a 38in rise in elevation. I tried putting up this thing four times. Whether it is the new putting dynamics, my mouse, my dpi setting or what .. four times it rolled back down to me. With this new rule you are telling me that i have to INTENTIONALLY putt off the green to do a shot go get it up and over that hill, which is ridiculous when I have a legal shot I can use to do the same thing. When I see Phil Mickelson chip from 80 feet out in a Ryder Cup, I should be able to do it in the Copper Creek online game. We have over 500 people who played in q-school. Out of that how many people are we talkign about that do this on a regular enough basis that a rule needs to be created instead of the administrators simple sending them a note saying, "We are watching you". 1%? 2% 5% of that field? As I said your intention is noble, but the new rule is way over-reaching and penalizes a fair number of us under the circumstances I have described. How many of us have said, "oh we do it for super long putts?" 5, 10, 15? So your new rule would be hurting more people that it was designed to stop is my point. |
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Post by jwfickett on Jan 23, 2015 16:50:31 GMT -5
Your concerns are valid, BT, but as I stated previously, the rule must be brightline or else it becomes grayer and grayer and unenforceable. It's better to put everyone on the same page than to case-by-case something that is subjective and nearly impossible to police. It's a matter of logistics on our part, we're not trying to make people play worse, just reign in the people that are gaming the system. How hard is it to review the players shot and see if he had a grid in front of him or not? This is quite easy. Replay the shot, if there isn't grid in front of him, chipping is allowed. I played Coyote today and was 60 feet out with a 38in rise in elevation. I tried putting up this thing four times. Whether it is the new putting dynamics, my mouse, my dpi setting or what .. four times it rolled back down to me. With this new rule you are telling me that i have to INTENTIONALLY putt off the green to do a shot go get it up and over that hill, which is ridiculous when I have a legal shot I can use to do the same thing. When I see Phil Mickelson chip from 80 feet out in a Ryder Cup, I should be able to do it in the Copper Creek online game. Grids aren't the same for everyone. They're affected by PC graphics settings, pin location related to ball location, etc. And what about the guy that is 1 foot outside the grid lines vs the guy who is 30 ft outside them? One shot may be significantly easier than the other. It's not so black and white. We have to address complaints by members, requests for spot checks. It's really difficult to be judicious and even-handed in situations like that, and setting bad precedent is almost assured to happen. We'd rather be in the business of adding new features and creating an enjoyable playing experience than policing more and more and more. Same boat as HB -- limited resources, small team, priorities have to be made. It's better, in our opinion, to establish a brightline rule that can be policed when needed, instead of continual gray areas that require us to take time away from make the tour features better to address as a group. Of course, you are entitled to disagree, and I think you've expressed your opinion respectfully, which we appreciate. But people gaming the system was having an effect on the integrity of the scoring, which is worse, in our collective mind, than the unfortunate circumstance that you described in your above post. |
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Garno
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TGCT Name: European Tour
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Post by Garno on Jan 23, 2015 17:01:43 GMT -5
Greetings, I'm going to start this post by saying I fully understand the intention of the Tour Administrators behind this rule change. There were a select number of people who were using "chipping on the green" as a way to avoid the break of the green on small to medium putts and thus gaining what is perceived to be an advantage of others who putt instead. While the intention of the rule is fine, the problem is as the saying goes, 'the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.' Allow me to explain. 1. The rules of golf allow any club to be used on any shot, anywhere. 2. There are a slew of videos you can check on YouTube that shows pros of all caliber, including Phil Mickelson in the Ryder Cup. While I understand there will be those people who say, this is a game and due to the fact that chipping here is not like real life we have to regulate it. A fair point but it still takes practice to do it effectively. While putting is effected by the break of the green I do not think in this game putting is effected by wind speed as it is in RL. Chipping here is most definitely effected by wind speed AND slope. This type of shot is not as easy as some claim and it does take practice. Still I will admit that on a shot that is 13feet out using a lob wedge that will go 12 feet you can be pretty accurate, so there are some cases where, yes it will be easier. All that being said, the vast majority of players do NOT use this tactic, so the rule that is suddenly being thrust upon is is a rather large reactionary response to a very small problem. It is obvious that people have complained about this to the directors, my question would be, exactly how many different people do this? I can't imagine the number being higher than 8 or 10. Would it not have been easier and better to check out their game/ghost, determine they were using something contrary to the spirit and have an individual chat with them? You do this for people who are suspected of hitting the ball straight all the time. If you were going to install a rule it would have been far easier and better to make a rule about general fairness. People who are determined to 'exploit' a weakness in the game shall be warned, then dealt with. Chipping 15 times a round would definitely fall under this category. Please understand I come at this as a person who rarely uses the PW/LW on the green. The times where I use it are severe elevation changes or when I can't even get a proper read on the putt due to the fact there is no grid for the first 1/2 of the putt. This rule basically states that I have to be penalized and "GUESS" the slope of the green because my ball landed so far away instead of using a valid shot approved by the rules of golf! Let me repeat that, cause it bears repeating. If i'm 80, 90, 100 feet away and I cannot see the slope of the green for the first 40,50,60 feet, this rule says that I MUST GUESS, approximate, throw caution to the wind and/or hit n hope that I end up somewhere in the vicinity where I think the slope is. All this because I'm not allowed to use a legal and valid shot under the rules of golf. Do the administrators believe that from this distance I am a lock to hole it out? To not allow a chip/flop/bump n run shot from a distance where a person cannot even see a grid is utterly ridiculous. I would even go far as say that it is completely unfair rule to force a player to putt without the aid of a grid in a tournament that uses and allows the grid. In short, this new rule is a reactionary rule, that in my opinion goes too far in trying to correct a minor problem that few golfers utilize. Rules like this are not good rules. Playing devil's advocate for a moment, people say, "it is ettiquette" or "learn to putt", but person who chips can say the same thing, "it is a legal shot" and "Learn to chip". When you are talking about legal shots, what makes one way better, more accepted than the other? At this point, I have to say I whole-heartedly disagree with this rule, especially when it comes to long putts where we don't have a grid to work with. I believe that the administrators would be better served not to make this rule and instead deal with the "offending people" on a case by case basis. If a person is viewed chipping consistently to avoid a break, then that break the "spirit of the rules", but to make a rule that punishes those of us who use this legal shot in specific cases, is simple wrong and I will not be a part of it. I am withdrawing from next weeks (week 4) tournament at Coyote Creek. I do this in part of protest of a badly written rule and part that I have been practicing that course many times this week and I know I have had several holes where i'm over 70 feet from the whole with severe elevation changes. This is the perfect course to illustrate my point. Good luck all, I hope the administrators will reconsider this rule as a whole and at the very least change it to reflect my valid concerns. BT Here here, well said. IMO, the line I draw on this matter basically comes down to the putting grid. If I am inside the grid and wouldn't even concider flopping these putts. Outside of the putting grid is a completely different ball game. When it's easier to measure the distance of the putt in yards rather than feet, I would easily start debating my options of shot type, in the game yes, but even more so, irl. To those flopping or pitching the putts inside the putting grid, shame on you. Golf is a game of honour/integrity, and chipping the short ones goes against this. /endrant |
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Post by Brighttail on Jan 23, 2015 17:12:10 GMT -5
Kudos for standing up for what you believe in. I work in an industry where i see reactionary rules and policies crop up and they never work out very well. My solution is simple, don't play a tournament where this will be an issue. Coyote, there are many places this may be an issue, so I'll move to the European tour or not play at all, who knows? The admins have stated it has occurred enough to affect the leader board significantly and I will take them for their word on that. I just think it would be better to stick a definitive number into the equation. I would propose a compromise. Pick a number and make the rule state: "If while on the green, a player is 50 feet or father away from the hole, the player may use any club to strike the shot." Here are my reasons: - It is easy to police via replay - I can't imagine anyone holing 50-60 foot chips with any type of unfair accuracy - It recognizes those golf purists out there and our views - Anyone would be able to do it without feeling that it breaks the etiquette of the game since it is an individual rule. - It is a fair compromise that I feel takes away the unfair advantage the moderators are trying to prevent while allowing a legal shot that we have seen many pros execute. (Heck I have used a 7iron on the green from time to time in RL) I would like to think that we in the golf community can request arbitration or at least work to come to an amicable and reasonable solution we can all agree with that is fair to all sides. |
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