Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2015 3:50:57 GMT -5
I really wanted to be done with this conversation, but I do gotta ask some of you this question:
Would you ever consider chipping in real life a putt that is 15-25 feet sitting on the green with no severe slopes anywhere to be found?
If you are playing serious, the answer is no, each and every time. So why is it ok for somebody to do this in TGC? you know why they are doing it, because its easier than putting. simply put, it nulls the breaks and makes it so much easier to make or be closer to the cup if you miss.
Sure this is not real life, but its real life that brings you all on the wrong side of the fence here. Why? because of the rule that states all clubs are legal from everywhere, but unlike real life, chipping is easier in this game than putting from distance. So please, lets keep the "real life" part out of the argument...i dont know how many times I have to say it, ...if you want to use real life as your argument, stop ignoring the other parts of real life for the sake of keeping that argument.
thanks.
|
|
|
|
Post by classicphil on Jan 24, 2015 4:12:57 GMT -5
I really wanted to be done with this conversation, but I do gotta ask some of you this question: Would you ever consider chipping in real life a putt that is 15-25 feet sitting on the green with no severe slopes anywhere to be found? If you are playing serious, the answer is no, each and every time. So why is it ok for somebody to do this in TGC? you know why they are doing it, because its easier than putting. simply put, it nulls the breaks and makes it so much easier to make or be closer to the cup if you miss. Sure this is not real life, but its real life that brings you all on the wrong side of the fence here. Why? because of the rule that states all clubs are legal from everywhere, but unlike real life, chipping is easier in this game than putting from distance. So please, lets keep the "real life" part out of the argument...i dont know how many times I have to say it, ...if you want to use real life as your argument, stop ignoring the other parts of real life for the sake of keeping that argument. thanks. Honestly Taste, if I felt I had a better chance of making the putt for whatever reason with a wedge in real life than with a putter, I'd use a wedge (and there have been times in real life where I have done that). It would be legal and I wouldn't have any qualms about it. As I said before, I've played rounds of golf with my brother (who's a single digit handicap) who putted the whole round with his 3 Wood, as he was getting better results. I didn't throw a hissy fit and go off about how he was playing the game wrong etc - for him, it was easier to putt with a 3 Wood than with a putter. Fair enough, the rules allow it. In TGC, for some it is easier to lag putt than it is to chip. I'm personally getting a little tired of the throwaway assumption that somehow chipping is universally easier to every player than putting in TGC in any and all circumstances; its not. Some players are probably better at chipping (I am) than putting - why we should arbitrarily punish players who are better at chipping than putting is somewhat unfair and punitive. We're forcing players to play away from their strengths which favor those who are better at putting than chipping. Just because you find chipping easier than putting doesn't mean everyone else does (I know 1 or 2 players who never chip in this game because its so difficult for example). It's simply a false assumption to make, and its unfair to try and force everyone to play the game exactly the same as everyone else. Someone else said it previous but there is no "right" way to play golf, and that's the beauty of the game. These types of actions run contrary to that and serve to benefit those who's strengths these actions play to. Sidenote: if by chipping you mean flop shots Taste, I would give you that point (though flopping shots that are less than 30 yards is not a slam-dunk easy shot) - if that's what the complaints are about then ban flop shots on greens except if you don't have a line at the pin. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2015 4:22:27 GMT -5
I really wanted to be done with this conversation, but I do gotta ask some of you this question: Would you ever consider chipping in real life a putt that is 15-25 feet sitting on the green with no severe slopes anywhere to be found? If you are playing serious, the answer is no, each and every time. So why is it ok for somebody to do this in TGC? you know why they are doing it, because its easier than putting. simply put, it nulls the breaks and makes it so much easier to make or be closer to the cup if you miss. Sure this is not real life, but its real life that brings you all on the wrong side of the fence here. Why? because of the rule that states all clubs are legal from everywhere, but unlike real life, chipping is easier in this game than putting from distance. So please, lets keep the "real life" part out of the argument...i dont know how many times I have to say it, ...if you want to use real life as your argument, stop ignoring the other parts of real life for the sake of keeping that argument. thanks. Honestly Taste, if I felt I had a better chance of making the putt for whatever reason with a wedge in real life than with a putter, I'd use a wedge (and there have been times in real life where I have done that). It would be legal and I wouldn't have any qualms about it. As I said before, I've played rounds of golf with my brother (who's a single digit handicap) who putted the whole round with his 3 Wood, as he was getting better results. I didn't throw a hissy fit and go off about how he was playing the game wrong etc - for him, it was easier to putt with a 3 Wood than with a putter. Fair enough, the rules allow it. In TGC, for some it is easier to lag putt than it is to chip. I'm personally getting a little tired of the throwaway assumption that somehow chipping is universally easier to every player than putting in TGC in any and all circumstances; its not. Some players are probably better at chipping (I am) than putting - why we should arbitrarily punish players who are better at chipping than putting is somewhat unfair and punitive. We're forcing players to play away from their strengths which favor those who are better at putting than chipping. Just because you find chipping easier than putting doesn't mean everyone else does (I know 1 or 2 players who never chip in this game because its so difficult for example). It's simply a false assumption to make, and its unfair to try and force everyone to play the game exactly the same as everyone else. Someone else said it previous but there is no "right" way to play golf, and that's the beauty of the game. These types of actions run contrary to that and serve to benefit those who's strengths these actions play to. Sidenote: if by chipping you mean flop shots Taste, I would give you that point (though flopping shots that are less than 30 yards is not a slam-dunk easy shot) - if that's what the complaints are about then ban flop shots on greens except if you don't have a line at the pin. A flop shot 20 to 30 yards is pretty easy to get very close, just slide the right amount of loft and hit it 100%. A flop shot under 20 yards is more difficult because you have to hit it softer and that can be inconsistent |
|
|
|
Post by SMIFFYLFC79 on Jan 24, 2015 4:29:34 GMT -5
OK this is my last opinion on the above matter, TGCT ADMIN have made there ruling on this matter, so with all due respect to everyone including myself as I know my previous post was not the best thing to submit, but ladies and gentlemen the more we all seem to have a go at the creators of this site the more likely we all are of them saying "ok we have had enough now and were not continuing with this venture anymore".
At the end of the day we all want the same thing and that's to come on to our preferred systems, chat, laugh, joke with our friends and play some golf, by all means compete against ur friends, that's the whole idea of TGCT.
just my opinion and to all have fun, enjoy and lets just play.
Happy Golfing.
|
|
|
|
Post by PointedMarlin on Jan 24, 2015 5:00:26 GMT -5
Ok I didn't want to comment as I'm genuinely indifferent either way but this how I see 'the situation'
You brought the game
You play it the way you want
But ..
You signed up to a league
You abide by the rules of that league - but the rules change over time
You don't like the rules anymore
You join another league that still uses the rules you do like playing under
I get that you like this league so you are left with 2 choices:
Adapt & continue to play by the amended from original rules in the league you enjoy or
Go & ply your trade where what you do doesn't break the league rules & hope that the enjoyment you currently experience will be found elsewhere
In my opinion you will be respected by anyone whose opinion you actually care about for doing either because ...
You brought the game
You play it the way you want
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2015 5:10:58 GMT -5
I really wanted to be done with this conversation, but I do gotta ask some of you this question: Would you ever consider chipping in real life a putt that is 15-25 feet sitting on the green with no severe slopes anywhere to be found? If you are playing serious, the answer is no, each and every time. So why is it ok for somebody to do this in TGC? you know why they are doing it, because its easier than putting. simply put, it nulls the breaks and makes it so much easier to make or be closer to the cup if you miss. Sure this is not real life, but its real life that brings you all on the wrong side of the fence here. Why? because of the rule that states all clubs are legal from everywhere, but unlike real life, chipping is easier in this game than putting from distance. So please, lets keep the "real life" part out of the argument...i dont know how many times I have to say it, ...if you want to use real life as your argument, stop ignoring the other parts of real life for the sake of keeping that argument. thanks. Honestly Taste, if I felt I had a better chance of making the putt for whatever reason with a wedge in real life than with a putter, I'd use a wedge (and there have been times in real life where I have done that). It would be legal and I wouldn't have any qualms about it. As I said before, I've played rounds of golf with my brother (who's a single digit handicap) who putted the whole round with his 3 Wood, as he was getting better results. I didn't throw a hissy fit and go off about how he was playing the game wrong etc - for him, it was easier to putt with a 3 Wood than with a putter. Fair enough, the rules allow it. In TGC, for some it is easier to lag putt than it is to chip. I'm personally getting a little tired of the throwaway assumption that somehow chipping is universally easier to every player than putting in TGC in any and all circumstances; its not. Some players are probably better at chipping (I am) than putting - why we should arbitrarily punish players who are better at chipping than putting is somewhat unfair and punitive. We're forcing players to play away from their strengths which favor those who are better at putting than chipping. Just because you find chipping easier than putting doesn't mean everyone else does (I know 1 or 2 players who never chip in this game because its so difficult for example). It's simply a false assumption to make, and its unfair to try and force everyone to play the game exactly the same as everyone else. Someone else said it previous but there is no "right" way to play golf, and that's the beauty of the game. These types of actions run contrary to that and serve to benefit those who's strengths these actions play to. Sidenote: if by chipping you mean flop shots Taste, I would give you that point (though flopping shots that are less than 30 yards is not a slam-dunk easy shot) - if that's what the complaints are about then ban flop shots on greens except if you don't have a line at the pin. not even sure if you read what i said, here you go around in that full circle, so i will just repost my last post. putting with a 3 wood, .....its putting the freaking ball, he is not leaving the putting surface to null the breaks now is he? read what I said, if you can't understand the point, then there is no help in having you understand the point we are trying to make. THIS IS NOT ABOUT EXTREME SITUATIONS, THIS RULE WAS NOT PUT IN PLACE FOR EXTREME SITUATIONS, FEET ARE NOT YARDS, THERE WERE PLAYERS CHIPPING THEIR PUTTS FROM 15-25 FEET, get it? got it? good. Granger, for the ones who get it done. |
|
|
|
Post by Crazy Croc on Jan 24, 2015 5:17:53 GMT -5
Only discovered this topic today and read most of the posts. A few things that sort of repeats itself from the responses are passion, real word vs video game, ability to police, exploits and fairplay/in the spirit of the game.
Passion
Good to see people are passionate about this game. Sometimes things get a bit heated, but at least it shows passion and that is always good.
Real world vs Video game
Real world and peeps go bananas if someone shoots sub 60. Video game - if you can't go sub 60 regularly, well then you are simply not good enough and won't ever see your name on top of leader boards.
Fair play and Spirit of the game
By far the most contentious aspect of not just this topic, but playing the game in general. Should one be allowed to chip on greens just because it is allowed in real golf? Makes sense to. However - when chipping is simply being used to negate having to face breaks on the greens or getting close to holes on long putts - is this still fair play or in the spirit of the game? I think not.
Exploits
I did not know about the so called sandwedge exploit until I read this topic. What makes it different than for instance than facing a 148 yd shot to a fast and sloping away green with water short and lofting a 3 iron to the max? Sub 60 crowd will watch their ball take one hop and stop 6 inches short, average Joe's will use 8 iron and watch in dismay as their ball rolls out to 170 yds total. Sure - the game allows for everyone one to use loft (with accuracy penalty of course), so it should be fair - in theory. Then by same reasoning, then the sandwedge exploit is not really an exploit?
And then perhaps one can argue that chipping/flopping/pitching from any distance on the green should be fair too? But then I already stated that I think that is not fair play and not in the spirit of the game...
What about playing around with dpi settings on a mouse? What about waiting for less wind? What was HB's intention when they created the game? Sub 60's as the norm?
Policing the game
I was involved as an admin in a simracing league for a number of years. Although much smaller in size as tgctours I have an idea the battles the admins here have to face. What started out as a passion eventually became a chore. Effective policing becomes nigh impossible - especially with 4 tournaments running every week, cut lines and hundreds of players. It will make things a hundred times easier to police by banning all chipping on greens than to have to sit and discuss the merits of each and every instance.
My conclusion
Taking fair play, exploits and effective policing into consideration it is the right call to outright ban chipping etc on greens where one has a clear line to the hole.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2015 5:45:15 GMT -5
Only discovered this topic today and read most of the posts. A few things that sort of repeats itself from the responses are passion, real word vs video game, ability to police, exploits and fairplay/in the spirit of the game. PassionGood to see people are passionate about this game. Sometimes things get a bit heated, but at least it shows passion and that is always good. Real world vs Video gameReal world and peeps go bananas if someone shoots sub 60. Video game - if you can't go sub 60 regularly, well then you are simply not good enough and won't ever see your name on top of leader boards. Fair play and Spirit of the game
By far the most contentious aspect of not just this topic, but playing the game in general. Should one be allowed to chip on greens just because it is allowed in real golf? Makes sense to. However - when chipping is simply being used to negate having to face breaks on the greens or getting close to holes on long putts - is this still fair play or in the spirit of the game? I think not. Exploits
I did not know about the so called sandwedge exploit until I read this topic. What makes it different than for instance than facing a 148 yd shot to a fast and sloping away green with water short and lofting a 3 iron to the max? Sub 60 crowd will watch their ball take one hop and stop 6 inches short, average Joe's will use 8 iron and watch in dismay as their ball rolls out to 170 yds total. Sure - the game allows for everyone one to use loft (with accuracy penalty of course), so it should be fair - in theory. Then by same reasoning, then the sandwedge exploit is not really an exploit? And then perhaps one can argue that chipping/flopping/pitching from any distance on the green should be fair too? But then I already stated that I think that is not fair play and not in the spirit of the game... What about playing around with dpi settings on a mouse? What about waiting for less wind? What was HB's intention when they created the game? Sub 60's as the norm? Policing the gameI was involved as an admin in a simracing league for a number of years. Although much smaller in size as tgctours I have an idea the battles the admins here have to face. What started out as a passion eventually became a chore. Effective policing becomes nigh impossible - especially with 4 tournaments running every week, cut lines and hundreds of players. It will make things a hundred times easier to police by banning all chipping on greens than to have to sit and discuss the merits of each and every instance. My conclusionTaking fair play, exploits and effective policing into consideration it is the right call to outright ban chipping etc on greens where one has a clear line to the hole. I completely agree with your post. But in some extreme cases where you can't reach the hole with a putt, for example an extreme uphill put from 100 foot or more where a putt will not make the distance with full power. I would have no problem with somebody chipping(not flop or pitch) to make the distance. A chip from that distance is still a very tough shot and will be rolling on the green for much of the shot |
|
|
|
Post by Hawk on Jan 24, 2015 6:37:11 GMT -5
I'm certainly not happy with Tgctours breaking the real rules of golf to accommodate a dislike in the way "The Golf Club" is played. This is not the way a golf simulation tournament should be governed. I'd have much rather seen some sensible parameters set in the process of choosing which courses are chosen to play the tournaments as I believe this is were the blame lies in players preferring to use a chipper on the green than a putter. Some of the greens on a lot of the courses are SO overly designed with their massive sizes/tiers and undulations that it does boarder on the ridiculous at times. A big issue when putting from great distances is actually being able to pinpoint were the hole is. This needs sorting out in the simulation itself, as I'm sure if people could easily see were the hole is when putting from great distances they would more likely choose the putter than a chipper for the job. So yes. I do believe by implementing this rule your barking up the wrong tree for the wrong reasons to solve this issue of increased chipper play on greens.
Just for the record: I only use a chipper on massive greens were my ball is so far away from the hole that I have trouble seeing the hole. I use a putter once I get within a reasonable distance of the hole simply because a putter is more accurate than a chipper. This is the way golf is played in real life, that is what the rules are there for and the rules of golf should not be raped to accommodate a gamers attitude. This is a simulation isn't it? I'm now sadly starting to question this definition. 
There are better ways to solve this problem!!
Hawk. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2015 7:06:18 GMT -5
I'm certainly not happy with Tgctours breaking the real rules of golf to accommodate a dislike in the way "The Golf Club" is played. This is not the way a golf simulation tournament should be governed. I'd have much rather seen some sensible parameters set in the process of choosing which courses are chosen to play the tournaments as I believe this is were the blame lies in players preferring to use a chipper on the green than a putter. Some of the greens on a lot of the courses are SO overly designed with their massive sizes/tiers and undulations that it does boarder on the ridiculous at times. A big issue when putting from great distances is actually being able to pinpoint were the hole is. This needs sorting out in the simulation itself, as I'm sure if people could easily see were the hole is when putting from great distances they would more likely choose the putter than a chipper for the job. So yes. I do believe by implementing this rule your barking up the wrong tree for the wrong reasons to solve this issue of increased chipper play on greens.
Just for the record: I only use a chipper on massive greens were my ball is so far away from the hole that I have trouble seeing the hole. I use a putter once I get within a reasonable distance of the hole simply because a putter is more accurate than a chipper. This is the way golf is played in real life, that is what the rules are there for and the rules of golf should not be raped to accommodate a gamers attitude. This is a simulation isn't it? I'm now sadly starting to question this definition.
There are better ways to solve this problem!!
Hawk. wrong on many points, and thus your entire feelings towards the rule are based on fiction and not facts. this rule was put in place because ppl were chipping from well within a reasonable putting range, 15-25 feet, not yards, but feet even with no red or yellow grid lines. if everyone starts chipping from these distances just to avoid green breaks, this game would be a crapfest, do we want to go that route? no. so we have to deal with avoiding the gray (grey) areas by making the rule the way it was made. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2015 7:17:53 GMT -5
I also want to add this in:
People keep preaching "realism" "real life rules" etc etc
Then they want to defend "cartoon style play"
This is mind boggling to me.
If you play the game (TGC) as you would a real course, this rule does not apply to you, trust me, it doesn't. If you really play this game as you would in the real world, you will have no problems with this rule.
This rule was only put in place and I mean only, for those that do not putt manageable putts, thus exploiting game mechanics, the mechanics that make it easier to chip than putt from certain distances vs reasonable green breaks.
Play the game as you would in real life, and nobody will give two poots how you play. Remember, we the players are policing this, we don't have to report anything, it is here for us to report the abusers.
|
|
|
|
Post by slickhenry on Jan 24, 2015 7:37:15 GMT -5
if everyone starts chipping from these distances just to avoid green breaks, this game would be a crapfest That is your opinion, not a fact. Creating policies based on opinions, likes and dislikes is never a good idea. I don't have a problem with people chipping on the greens. From 15-20 feet I would like to make every put. Therefore I practice with the putter. If other people prefer to practice with the LW or SW, I see no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to do it. If HB Studios didn't want us to chip on the greens, I find it funny that they included a trophy/achievement where one has to do exactly that with the 7i. I'll accept that I can't change this policy now and that the committee are in their full rights to set the rules as they please, so this is my last post on this. I will continue to play the game and the tour, even if I disagree with some of the policies set. I will just urge the people in charge to include the community in the process and decision, the next time people want them to introduce a rule based on something someone does't like. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2015 7:37:45 GMT -5
I also want to add this in: People keep preaching "realism" "real life rules" etc etc Then they want to defend "cartoon style play" This is mind boggling to me. If you play the game (TGC) as you would a real course, this rule does not apply to you, trust me, it doesn't. If you really play this game as you would in the real world, you will have no problems with this rule. This rule was only put in place and I mean only, for those that do not putt manageable putts, thus exploiting game mechanics, the mechanics that make it easier to chip than putt from certain distances vs reasonable green breaks. Play the game as you would in real life, and nobody will give two poots how you play. Remember, we the players are policing this, we don't have to report anything, it is here for us to report the abusers. Very true, how many of us golfers or pro golfers would be chipping on the green from 20 feet even on a big breaker putt. The flop shot is a risk shot in real golf how many pro golfers or amateurs use it. Phil M is a master at it but how many pro golfers use it consistently on the pga tour?. I wish it was the tough shot it is in real life. High loft pitch shots in the game are quiet unrealistic too, we see balls spinning back 5 or 6 feet from the rough from 30 yards away ,even Phi M can't get that control from the heavy rough |
|
|
|
Post by Oblong on Jan 24, 2015 8:05:49 GMT -5
Going by some of the arguments there is a case being made to outlaw flopping from 20-40 yards next. Nobody would regularly play that shot in real life, certainly not from a bunker. It's also easier to fade/draw to normalize heavy winds but a regular Joe would never attempt that risky shot than just play the wind so maybe that is up for banning next too. We must ensure all golfers in the game are doing EXACTLY the shot they would choose in real life because this game MUST be an exact reproduction of real golf...(unless it pertains to the actual real rules of golf). let the dissecting begin!
|
|
roddymacd
Weekend Golfer
Posts: 137 
TGCT Name: Roddy macdougall
|
Post by roddymacd on Jan 24, 2015 8:09:07 GMT -5
I applaud your decision admin I've been playing golf for 40 years had some very long putts especially on St andrews and never thought once to pull out a wedge or anything other than a putter, I know it's ok in the rules off golf but to me it's called a putting green for a reason, if you've hit a bad enough shot to be that far away from the hole or even on the wrong side off the hole its your bad shot deal with it.on the rare occasions that it happens on any tour it's usually if a obstacle is in the way, I usually play with the same people every day have done for years on every golf game that has come out and I could count on the fingers off one hand the times I've seen any off us chip,pitcher flop on the green and it's always been if there was a bunker in the way damn we even try to putt if the fringe is between the ball and the hole so once again I applaud your decision.
|
|
