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Post by joegolferg on Jan 26, 2019 7:06:06 GMT -5
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Post by paulus on Jan 26, 2019 7:20:06 GMT -5
The Marxism comment a touch patronizing Joe  But we are agreed about coup's & sanction's not being the answer. Personally I think the "old style" socialism is a busted flush - where a "benevolent" cult of personality acts in the greater good - these have a propensity to become regimes. I'd prefer to see a scientific, evidence based politics - with capitial completely expunged from the political process (funding limits very strictly controlled, no loopholes like PAC's). What we'd end up with is that it's sensible to provide a basic socialist framework - essential services for free - as that investment comes back tenfold. The rest a regulated market can be good at, but it does need strong regulation to stop the companies being anti-social in their behaviors (polluting the planet etc.) |
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Post by paulus on Jan 26, 2019 7:33:37 GMT -5
B.Smooth13 - it was a very interesting watch đ I knew of his work to a degree, but had no idea about him as a person. I have to say - there was a small begrudging respect at just how much he doesn't give a @!$# about what people think of him. The most telling part was as he moved into Trump's 2016 campaign - having spent the last 30 years literally creating a political system so totally corrupted by capital - then to start campaigning on the platform of draining the swamp because he "knows just how corrupt they all are"... yeah no sh%$!
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Post by joegolferg on Jan 26, 2019 9:08:53 GMT -5
The Marxism comment a touch patronizing Joe But we are agreed about coup's & sanction's not being the answer. Personally I think the "old style" socialism is a busted flush - where a "benevolent" cult of personality acts in the greater good - these have a propensity to become regimes. I'd prefer to see a scientific, evidence based politics - with capitial completely expunged from the political process (funding limits very strictly controlled, no loopholes like PAC's). What we'd end up with is that it's sensible to provide a basic socialist framework - essential services for free - as that investment comes back tenfold. The rest a regulated market can be good at, but it does need strong regulation to stop the companies being anti-social in their behaviors (polluting the planet etc.) I was afraid that the Marxism tweet would come across as arrogant or patronizing but, I did think about it before tweeting and I'm pretty certain that an absolute majority of people who post in here haven't even so much as seen a book that was written by Marx, let alone read it. I'm sure most would openly admit that. So with that in mind how could anybody who hasn't read Marx understand the political stance of a Marxist? Let's be honest, understanding Marx in detail is no easy task. I don't look down on people for not reading his work, because I know how extensive, nuanced and difficult it can be to understand. I still have a lot to read and try to understand myself. I have you pegged as one of the 1% who does understand where I'm coming from. You come across as understanding Marxism, socialism and communism better than your average person. Maybe that in itself sounds a tad patronizing đ but since the cold war, there has been a relentless anti Marxist propaganda campaign raging in the west. That's just pure fact. I agree with how you envision a fairer system, but we both know that even if all those things were put in place, they wouldn't last for long as the ruling elite would be working tirelessly to rig the economy back into their favour. That's the sad reality of capitalism and what it has become. Look at where we are today. 40 million Americans receiving food stamps, 4 million Brits using food banks... There must be something rotten in the very core of a social system which increases its wealth without diminishing its misery - Karl Marx |
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Post by ErixonStone on Jan 26, 2019 10:40:29 GMT -5
Marx is a pariah in the US. Our schools have indoctrinated us so badly that most people - an overwhelming majority - would never even consider reading his books.
We aren't taught anything meaningful about socialism, except the corruption that doomed it.
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Post by jacobkessler on Jan 26, 2019 11:00:18 GMT -5
Marx is a pariah in the US. Our schools have indoctrinated us so badly that most people - an overwhelming majority - would never even consider reading his books. We aren't taught anything meaningful about socialism, except the corruption that doomed it. This. American schools just teach kids that Marx, communism, and socialism are really bad. They donât teach much about the principles involved with them... they just brainwash kids into an anti-communist and anti-socialist view. And while I certainly wouldnât call myself a communist or socialist... there are some really smart aspects that kids need to learn in order to develop their own opinions. |
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Post by joegolferg on Jan 26, 2019 11:12:23 GMT -5
Marx is a pariah in the US. Our schools have indoctrinated us so badly that most people - an overwhelming majority - would never even consider reading his books. We aren't taught anything meaningful about socialism, except the corruption that doomed it. All part of the cold war propaganda, and the purge of the American left after WW2. |
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Post by nevadaballin on Jan 26, 2019 12:36:01 GMT -5
Hence an example of why pure socialism does not work. Someday we'll have smart people in the right places who realize that there is a mix of all of these platforms that is just right. But we need to move away from demonizing each of them all. Wait a minute... We're all litteraly watching a mixture of all these platforms unfold right in front of our very eye's. Venezuela is largely capitalist, with a hint a redistribution mixed in. Venezuela is proof that a mixture of the two (capitalism / socialism) cannot truly exist. And about socialism never being able to work. How could you possibly know, when you've never witnessed it to be a failure? Full socialism is lifetimes away, we're only just scratching the surface of democratic socialism. They don't have balance, especially if their oil is state run. They may appear mixed but from how I'm understanding their present way of doing things.... they are not. They are pretty much running under a socialist model. Whatever it is they think they are doing, they are doing it wrong. Socialism never failed? The USSR failed. I'm watching a pillar of socialism - a state run and controlled oil business - fail in VZ right now. I wouldn't consider North Korea and Cuba as examples of success. |
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Post by nevadaballin on Jan 26, 2019 12:41:41 GMT -5
I do not believe sanctions help the people of VZ either. I think I need to make that clear in this.
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Post by nevadaballin on Jan 26, 2019 12:42:31 GMT -5
Marx is a pariah in the US. Our schools have indoctrinated us so badly that most people - an overwhelming majority - would never even consider reading his books. We aren't taught anything meaningful about socialism, except the corruption that doomed it. This. American schools just teach kids that Marx, communism, and socialism are really bad. They donât teach much about the principles involved with them... they just brainwash kids into an anti-communist and anti-socialist view. And while I certainly wouldnât call myself a communist or socialist... there are some really smart aspects that kids need to learn in order to develop their own opinions. Is the opposite true also? |
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Post by nevadaballin on Jan 26, 2019 13:43:09 GMT -5
Is there anything in this Overview of VZ sanctions that is not true? Bear with me as i am giving myself a crash course on why they are being sanctioned in the first place. >>>> fas.org/sgp/crs/row/IF10715.pdf |
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Post by joegolferg on Jan 26, 2019 14:20:24 GMT -5
Wait a minute... We're all litteraly watching a mixture of all these platforms unfold right in front of our very eye's. Venezuela is largely capitalist, with a hint a redistribution mixed in. Venezuela is proof that a mixture of the two (capitalism / socialism) cannot truly exist. And about socialism never being able to work. How could you possibly know, when you've never witnessed it to be a failure? Full socialism is lifetimes away, we're only just scratching the surface of democratic socialism. They don't have balance, especially if their oil is state run. They may appear mixed but from how I'm understanding their present way of doing things.... they are not. They are pretty much running under a socialist model. Whatever it is they think they are doing, they are doing it wrong. Socialism never failed? The USSR failed. I'm watching a pillar of socialism - a state run and controlled oil business - fail in VZ right now. I wouldn't consider North Korea and Cuba as examples of success. Non of the mentioned countries have run on a system of socialism, they were all state capitalism. The definition of socialism and how Marx written about it was that, the means of production are entirely owned and operated by the populace. As I mentioned in a previous message, we're lifetimes away from anything like this. And this is a major problem, in my opinion. Most people, especially in the west, don't even know what socialism actually is. Private companies are still very active in the Venezuelan oil industry, despite nationalization. And I also have to point out, again, that sanctions on the nationalized oil companies forbid them from selling in dollars. So when you say you're watching the VZ oil industry failing, you actually mean you're watching the VZ oil industry being destroyed,and it's all because US companies no longer have a majority stake. I think US oil giants should put their dummies back in and go and drill their own oil. |
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Post by joegolferg on Jan 26, 2019 14:23:02 GMT -5
Is there anything in this Overview of VZ sanctions that is not true? Bear with me as i am giving myself a crash course on why they are being sanctioned in the first place. >>>> fas.org/sgp/crs/row/IF10715.pdfThey're being sanctioned because the state took out a majority share in the oil companies. Such a crime wanting to have a stake in your own oil fields, blimey âș |
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Post by joegolferg on Jan 26, 2019 14:28:40 GMT -5
Imagine a conflict involving all of these countries, today. Regime change cannot go on for much longer...
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Post by nevadaballin on Jan 26, 2019 21:28:34 GMT -5
They don't have balance, especially if their oil is state run. They may appear mixed but from how I'm understanding their present way of doing things.... they are not. They are pretty much running under a socialist model. Whatever it is they think they are doing, they are doing it wrong. Socialism never failed? The USSR failed. I'm watching a pillar of socialism - a state run and controlled oil business - fail in VZ right now. I wouldn't consider North Korea and Cuba as examples of success. Non of the mentioned countries have run on a system of socialism, they were all state capitalism. The definition of socialism and how Marx written about it was that, the means of production are entirely owned and operated by the populace. As I mentioned in a previous message, we're lifetimes away from anything like this. And this is a major problem, in my opinion. Most people, especially in the west, don't even know what socialism actually is. So you are blaming the jockeys (leaders), not the horse (the model) for not doing it right? For the record, this si the general definition of the USSR as we knew it >>> The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR), commonly known as the Soviet Union, was a socialist state in Eurasia that existed from 30 December 1922 to 26 December 1991. Let's do this... since no one in the west apparently knows what socialism really is, I will ask you to define it for me so we can chat about it. That way I can address this discussion fairly from your definition. |
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But we are agreed about coup's & sanction's not being the answer.
