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Post by nevadaballin on Jan 26, 2019 21:29:00 GMT -5
Is there anything in this Overview of VZ sanctions that is not true? Bear with me as i am giving myself a crash course on why they are being sanctioned in the first place. >>>> fas.org/sgp/crs/row/IF10715.pdfThey're being sanctioned because the state took out a majority share in the oil companies. Such a crime wanting to have a stake in your own oil fields, blimey ☺ I asked if the information in that link was true. ? |
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Post by paulus on Jan 26, 2019 22:06:52 GMT -5
It's a list of sanctions the US is imposing and their perceived reasons for doing so. There's no citations or evidence presented tho, just US opinion AFAICS. So while the list of sanctions is true & the reasons stated are indeed the US reasons for imposing them - doesn't really represent the full truth.
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Post by nevadaballin on Jan 27, 2019 0:06:32 GMT -5
It's a list of sanctions the US is imposing and their perceived reasons for doing so. There's no citations or evidence presented tho, just US opinion AFAICS. So while the list of sanctions is true & the reasons stated are indeed the US reasons for imposing them - doesn't really represent the full truth. What is the truth? |
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Post by joegolferg on Jan 27, 2019 4:29:39 GMT -5
Non of the mentioned countries have run on a system of socialism, they were all state capitalism. The definition of socialism and how Marx written about it was that, the means of production are entirely owned and operated by the populace. As I mentioned in a previous message, we're lifetimes away from anything like this. And this is a major problem, in my opinion. Most people, especially in the west, don't even know what socialism actually is. So you are blaming the jockeys (leaders), not the horse (the model) for not doing it right? For the record, this si the general definition of the USSR as we knew it >>> The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR), commonly known as the Soviet Union, was a socialist state in Eurasia that existed from 30 December 1922 to 26 December 1991. Let's do this... since no one in the west apparently knows what socialism really is, I will ask you to define it for me so we can chat about it. That way I can address this discussion fairly from your definition. What you described as the definition of the USSR wasn't a definition. It was just the long version of the acronym. I did define socialism in the message you quoted which was - The means of production being owned, operated and distributed by the community as a whole. This never happened in the USSR or any other socialst building country, as the government owned the factories etc, the populace didn't have a the powers to control what was produced and how it was distributed. The USSR was a "dictatorship of the proletariat" as Marx defined it, when a country radically shifts from full capitalism to state capitalism, and the USSR never moved out of this stage because of two reasons. 1. Stalin was an imperialist who had ambitions of world domination. Whether it was for total control or for the cause, I cannot make my mind up, yet. 2. Foreign hostilities could not be fought off without a general at the helm. Imagine if Russia had been a completely socialst system at the time of the Nazi invasion? I've no doubt that they would have been completely trampled on because of ill preparation. |
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Post by joegolferg on Jan 27, 2019 4:32:26 GMT -5
It's a list of sanctions the US is imposing and their perceived reasons for doing so. There's no citations or evidence presented tho, just US opinion AFAICS. So while the list of sanctions is true & the reasons stated are indeed the US reasons for imposing them - doesn't really represent the full truth. What is the truth? Chavez was elected and nationalized oil. The US came knocking... That's literally it. |
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Post by nevadaballin on Jan 27, 2019 4:38:40 GMT -5
Chavez was elected and nationalized oil. The US came knocking... That's literally it. So VZ is not responsible for any of its problems whatsoever, it's all the US's fault? |
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Post by joegolferg on Jan 27, 2019 4:53:16 GMT -5
Chavez was elected and nationalized oil. The US came knocking... That's literally it. So VZ is not responsible for any of its problems whatsoever, it's all the US's fault? I did post a pretty lengthy message on the previous page on what I believe is the fault of Venezuela and what isn't. I'm not a Chavista of any sort, but I believe Venezuela is sovereign and should be left to govern in which ever way they want to, without foreign interference (sanctions). They haven't broken international laws, they're not a threat to anyone, it seems their only crime in the eyes of western powers, is that they lifted huge amounts of the population out of poverty using nationalized oil. |
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Post by nevadaballin on Jan 27, 2019 5:04:00 GMT -5
So VZ is not responsible for any of its problems whatsoever, it's all the US's fault? I did post a pretty lengthy message on the previous page on what I believe is the fault of Venezuela and what isn't. I'm not a Chavista of any sort, but I believe Venezuela is sovereign and should be left to govern in which ever way they want to, without foreign interference (sanctions). They haven't broken international laws, they're not a threat to anyone, it seems their only crime in the eyes of western powers, is that they lifted huge amounts of the population out of poverty using nationalized oil. I need to read more about the Hydrocarbons Law that Chavez enacted and its effect on the economy after. Again, I'm no expert on US/VZ relations and won't pretend to be. But I will effort to learn more to further a better discussion. I don't want to cherry pick bits and pieces off the internet. That's unfair to the conversation. So it's going to be slow going on my end  But it is important that the facts presented are true. |
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Post by nevadaballin on Jan 27, 2019 5:06:48 GMT -5
I saw a VZ woman being interviewed as she was headed across the Columbian border for food and supplies. She said, "Tell President Trump that if he gets rid of Maduro, we won't just build a wall for him - we'll paint it too!"
I had to laugh, that was funny.
New campaign line for Trump > "VZ is going to build our wall - and they are going to paint it too!"
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Post by joegolferg on Jan 27, 2019 5:16:40 GMT -5
I saw a VZ woman being interviewed as she was headed across the Columbian border for food and supplies. She said, "Tell President Trump that if he gets rid of Maduro, we won't just build a wall for him - we'll paint it too!" I had to laugh, that was funny. New campaign line for Trump > "VZ is going to build our wall - and they are going to paint it too!" There are millions of people opposed to the VZ government, as you'd expect. The propaganda game from all sides will never die out. |
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Post by paulus on Jan 27, 2019 7:37:33 GMT -5
It's a list of sanctions the US is imposing and their perceived reasons for doing so. There's no citations or evidence presented tho, just US opinion AFAICS. So while the list of sanctions is true & the reasons stated are indeed the US reasons for imposing them - doesn't really represent the full truth. What is the truth? A very very slippery concept  Even two pretty well informed people who's political perspectives are fairly closely aligned (Joe and I) can see the Venezuelan situation quite differently. Truth is subjective - even in the strictest scientific sense. |
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Post by paulus on Jan 27, 2019 7:58:18 GMT -5
Marx described the 5 epochs that societies will progress through on their journey to an enlightened socialist/communist state...
Primitive Communal -> Slavery -> Feudalism -> Capitalism -> Socialism
Critically, you must go through capitalism to fully understand it's internal paradoxes & conflicts, in order to construct a form of socialism that is truly for the greater good. As Joe describes, the failed socialist/communist states so far have constructed a form of socialism that is really not in line with Marx's thinking. And the reason for that is that they mostly skipped the capitalism step.
Capitalism must fall first, before socialism can triumph.
It's my belief that in western countries we are currently seeing capitalism fail - it's delivering excellent outcomes for the very rich, it's delivering piss poor outcomes for everyone else. People, and the youth especially, are increasingly aware of this - conditions are getting riper for a revolution. A better socialism is on it's way.
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Post by nevadaballin on Jan 27, 2019 15:06:02 GMT -5
A very very slippery concept Even two pretty well informed people who's political perspectives are fairly closely aligned (Joe and I) can see the Venezuelan situation quite differently. Truth is subjective - even in the strictest scientific sense. I don't see truth as ever being subjective. That's a politician's excuse for skating around what is fact and what isn't (see Kellyanne Conway). Something is either true or it isn't. Truth does not have gray areas. |
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Post by nevadaballin on Jan 27, 2019 15:08:57 GMT -5
Marx described the 5 epochs that societies will progress through on their journey to an enlightened socialist/communist state... Primitive Communal -> Slavery -> Feudalism -> Capitalism -> Socialism Critically, you must go through capitalism to fully understand it's internal paradoxes & conflicts, in order to construct a form of socialism that is truly for the greater good. As Joe describes, the failed socialist/communist states so far have constructed a form of socialism that is really not in line with Marx's thinking. And the reason for that is that they mostly skipped the capitalism step. Capitalism must fall first, before socialism can triumph. It's my belief that in western countries we are currently seeing capitalism fail - it's delivering excellent outcomes for the very rich, it's delivering piss poor outcomes for everyone else. People, and the youth especially, are increasingly aware of this - conditions are getting riper for a revolution. A better socialism is on it's way. So socialism's failures to this point is because the jockeys didn't know how to ride the horse according to the Bible of Marx? Is that correct? |
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Post by karma4u on Jan 28, 2019 1:51:16 GMT -5
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But it is important that the facts presented are true.
