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Post by joegolferg on Jan 25, 2019 15:47:06 GMT -5
Not sure what you mean by curruption, though... In any discussion of Venezuelan politics, you must be aware of this. I'd prefer specifics. Just to be clear. Looking at the spin US media outlets have been spewing (NYT in particular) I'm assuming most people are talking about the elections. |
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Post by cliffs on Jan 25, 2019 15:48:36 GMT -5
Before we start celebrating the end to the shutdown we need to pause if I read Trump correctly the reason Trump signed own to the temporary deal is so that he can give the state of the union address to both Houses of Congress. He will use this opportunity to sell his wall and at the same time to attack the Democrats for opposing it. He hope the state of union address will bolster his poll number so that when he shuts down the government again for not getting border funding he will advance the argument that he had compromised and Pelosi didn't. Trump only wants the venue opened so that he can give his state of the union address after that all bets are off.
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Post by joegolferg on Jan 25, 2019 15:54:33 GMT -5
Maduro's party won all 545 seats in the election where he changed the constitution to give himself greater powers in 2017 - all sounds legit to me. Not even a whiff of totalitarianism  If the opposition doesn't participate, then what do you expect? Are you aware that the opposition held there own sort of "mock" elections last summer and the results were that that dire, in terms of support, they spat out their dummies and urged everybody in Venezuela to boycott the next elections? This on top of a drone bomb attempt to kill Maduro live on TV led to the opposition be found in contempt and as a result, the constitution changed. Imagine if the US democratic party attempted to kill Trump with the help of foreign powers? What would happen? When Britain came under attack during WW2, democracy was shut down for a period of time. |
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Post by paulus on Jan 25, 2019 16:04:03 GMT -5
Was the drone attack done with help of foreign powers? I've missed that if it's true... I know he blamed Columbia, but the evidence for that seemed to be non-existent at the time. Did later investigation reveal more?
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Post by B.Smooth13 on Jan 25, 2019 16:34:33 GMT -5
In any discussion of Venezuelan politics, you must be aware of this. I'd prefer specifics. Just to be clear. Looking at the spin US media outlets have been spewing (NYT in particular) I'm assuming most people are talking about the elections. No, I'm talking about things inside of the government - specifically, who has been put in charge of huge government run companies (oil in particular), why they were appointed to those positions within the national industry, what possible reasons for their appointments based on their professional backgrounds, and what they've done with that power. |
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Post by joegolferg on Jan 25, 2019 17:12:06 GMT -5
I'd prefer specifics. Just to be clear. Looking at the spin US media outlets have been spewing (NYT in particular) I'm assuming most people are talking about the elections. No, I'm talking about things inside of the government - specifically, who has been put in charge of huge government run companies (oil in particular), why they were appointed to those positions within the national industry, what possible reasons for their appointments based on their professional backgrounds, and what they've done with that power. I personally have no idea. I know that most of the economy is still heavily privatized, around 87% I think. Obviously there's going to be corruption somewhere, which country on earth doesn't suffer from such things? |
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Post by paulus on Jan 25, 2019 17:16:48 GMT -5
Joe - I guess my point is he's acting like a dictator - so naturally, I think he probably is one. He created a new Assembly with the power to replace the old Chavez constitution from 1999 - critically not seeking public approval for this (unlike Chavez who held a referendum for his constitutional change). The new assembly obviously gave him sweeping executive powers that previously never existed and look quite undemocratic. The new Assembly was opposed by approx 80% of the country, despite his repeated claims to the contrary. He has refused medicine and food from aid relief organizations around the world - stating they are part of a foreign conspiracy to overthrow his government. His people are literally starving. And while I know he has some popularity - imho that is largely due to Chavez's blessing, who was obviously wildly popular - Maduro has done very little to earn any himself. 1 million Venezuelan's have left since his rule started, the knee in this graph is not long after he took over...  He's mismanaging the country and economy badly... creating a new currency with some zero's lopped off in a misguided attempt to battle the hyper inflation is something a 5 year old would do. And in the absence of credible answers of his own, he's resorted to the tactic favoured by dictators the world over... blame someone else. While I'm sure the US & other foreign interests are acting to destabilize things with an eye on the oil (they have form!) - imho most of the blame on where that country is right now, lies with him. I'm not seeing what you're seeing - happy to be corrected - what am I missing? |
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Post by nevadaballin on Jan 25, 2019 17:42:46 GMT -5
Is this true?
>> "After Hugo Chávez officially took office in February 1999, several policy changes involving the country's oil industry were made to explicitly tie it to the state under his Bolivarian Revolution. Since then, PDVSA has not demonstrated any capability to bring new oil fields onstream since nationalizing heavy oil projects in the Orinoco Petroleum Belt formerly operated by international oil companies ExxonMobil, ConocoPhillips, Chevron and Total. Chávez’s policies damaged Venezuela's oil industry due to lack of investment, corruption and cash shortages."
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Post by paulus on Jan 25, 2019 18:14:46 GMT -5
Yes - he spent most of the profits from the oil fields on the poor. 👍
Therefore he didn’t really invest in the way a pure capitalist would, so development has not been as rapid as the western interests would like. Some might say that’s tough sh%$.
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Post by karma4u on Jan 25, 2019 19:21:11 GMT -5
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Post by nevadaballin on Jan 25, 2019 19:46:00 GMT -5
Yes - he spent most of the profits from the oil fields on the poor. 👍 Therefore he didn’t really invest in the way a pure capitalist would, so development has not been as rapid as the western interests would like. Some might say that’s tough sh%$. Hence an example of why pure socialism does not work. Someday we'll have smart people in the right places who realize that there is a mix of all of these platforms that is just right. But we need to move away from demonizing each of them all. |
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Post by cliffs on Jan 25, 2019 21:12:08 GMT -5
Conservative provocateur Ann Coulter wrote on Twitter: "Good news for George Herbert Walker Bush: As of today, he is no longer the biggest wimp ever to serve as President of the United States."
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Post by joegolferg on Jan 26, 2019 5:06:20 GMT -5
Joe - I guess my point is he's acting like a dictator - so naturally, I think he probably is one. He created a new Assembly with the power to replace the old Chavez constitution from 1999 - critically not seeking public approval for this (unlike Chavez who held a referendum for his constitutional change). The new assembly obviously gave him sweeping executive powers that previously never existed and look quite undemocratic. The new Assembly was opposed by approx 80% of the country, despite his repeated claims to the contrary. He has refused medicine and food from aid relief organizations around the world - stating they are part of a foreign conspiracy to overthrow his government. His people are literally starving. And while I know he has some popularity - imho that is largely due to Chavez's blessing, who was obviously wildly popular - Maduro has done very little to earn any himself. 1 million Venezuelan's have left since his rule started, the knee in this graph is not long after he took over... He's mismanaging the country and economy badly... creating a new currency with some zero's lopped off in a misguided attempt to battle the hyper inflation is something a 5 year old would do. And in the absence of credible answers of his own, he's resorted to the tactic favoured by dictators the world over... blame someone else. While I'm sure the US & other foreign interests are acting to destabilize things with an eye on the oil (they have form!) - imho most of the blame on where that country is right now, lies with him. I'm not seeing what you're seeing - happy to be corrected - what am I missing? I've been on twitter for a few years now, and have consistently been critical towards Maduro and his policies. One of my first tweets was actually about his rejection of aid, he thinks it makes Venezuela look much weaker than it is, but so what? I genuinely think he could win more international support if he came out and admitted that the country is struggling to keep a steady flow of food and other vital goods, due to the fact that sanctions in place squeeze revenue brought in by the nationalized oil companies (which is still only a small portion of the oil industry) is a big factor in keeping the country afloat. My biggest criticism of Chavez and more so, Maduro, is that they haven't gone far enough. When Chavez came to power he should have nationalized every single vital sector. Oil, food, banking materials etc, and left the services economy privatized. Because they've left most of these important to be privately owned, they've basically allowed for this crisis to happen because all of these privately owned companies are cooperating with the opposition and foreign hostile. The only story here is that the US and surrounding countries want to see Venezuela fully privatized again. And it's not even as if Chavez really took much away from the capitalists, like I mentioned earlier, roughly 87% of Venezuela is still privatized. Maduro should nationalize every bank, refinery, and food company. Food processing factories in Venezuela are Intentionally shutting down to help keep the food shortage going. That is just sick, and treacherous, they don't deserve to keep possession of their businesses. The food shortage could be improved if the factories were nationalized and production was based on the needs of the people. Better than having the owners holding them as some sort of ransom. In regards to the national assembly, I just hold my hands up and say "what do you expect?" Since the day Chavez took power violence, coup plotting and assassination attempts were the agenda for all opposition including neighboring powers. The more unstable the country becomes, as a result of these actions, democracy also becomes extremely ineffective. When you have opposition parties burning chavista's alive in the street, burning down food distribution centre's, the closing of food factories and attempts on the lives of democratically elected leaders, there should be a major crackdown on those parties. In my opinion, Maduro has been overly tolerant of the opposition party and their facistic tactics. The opposition has spent years operating unlawfully in an attempt to bring down an elected government, rather than trying to win over voters via policy. Why haven't they tried to win over voters with policy? Oh yeah, it's because their only policy is to reintroduce neo liberalism in Venezuela and an absolute majority of Venezuelans, hungry or not, will not give in to the demands of the Lima Cartel, backed by the US, with their "play by our rules" mentality. Are you at all suprised that the opposition party has been found in contempt of the assembly? Do you allow traitors to just carry on, business as usual burning people in the street? Or do you crack down on them before losing total control to foreign saboteurs? It's an extremely tough position to be in. Regarding the fact that people are leaving Venezuela for a better quality of life isn't anything different from what we've seen in the past. The same happened in Cuba and Chile and its no coincidence that these events happened during brutal economic warfare. This us exactly what the opposition wants, it make for useful propaganda such as, "Venezuelan's are fleeing from failed socialism" etc. But in reality it's because sanctions have degraded them and lowered their living standards. Over 2/3 of Venezuelan's were lifted out of poverty when Chavez took power, this looks bad for the US and other imperialist countries that want redistribution to look disastrous, so that why we saw economic warfare like never seen before, inflicted on Venezuela. So in a nutshell, I too blame not just Maduro, but also Chavez, for the state the country is in today. But I don't blame them for struggling to balance an economy during a blitz from the US and other's. I blame them for thinking they could build socialism by half measures. Running on a policy of redistributing wealth in a predominantly capitalist country was always a disaster waiting to happen. As I said before, if they'd nationalized all vital sectors, they wouldn't have to deal with Venezuelan food companies helping to starve the people, they'd have complete control of it. That said, they'd still be struggling internationally with brutal sanctions and threats of invasion and the rest of it. All said and done I think most of us agree that a foreign backed coup is not the answer. |
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Post by joegolferg on Jan 26, 2019 5:13:10 GMT -5
Yes - he spent most of the profits from the oil fields on the poor. 👍 Therefore he didn’t really invest in the way a pure capitalist would, so development has not been as rapid as the western interests would like. Some might say that’s tough sh%$. Hence an example of why pure socialism does not work. Someday we'll have smart people in the right places who realize that there is a mix of all of these platforms that is just right. But we need to move away from demonizing each of them all. Wait a minute... We're all litteraly watching a mixture of all these platforms unfold right in front of our very eye's. Venezuela is largely capitalist, with a hint a redistribution mixed in. Venezuela is proof that a mixture of the two (capitalism / socialism) cannot truly exist. And about socialism never being able to work. How could you possibly know, when you've never witnessed it to be a failure? Full socialism is lifetimes away, we're only just scratching the surface of democratic socialism. |
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Post by joegolferg on Jan 26, 2019 6:52:33 GMT -5
And after recent thrilling debates in here, this is EXACTLY how I feel...
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International Record: 7-0-0
