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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2015 19:39:49 GMT -5
And some players above have also said that the marker doesn't help them and they just go by feel. So I guess that makes them crappy players too? Those players don't understand it then It'd be like players saying they don't want to use grids on the green because they don't understand reading the dots. They just do the best they can without grids and it's working for them. That is in essence what players are doing if they choose not to use the putting marker north/south. If anyone wants a more in depth tutorial make a post and I'll come on by! I understand all that. And even using the grids and the moving dots, sure, it tells you the direction the green is sloping and relatively how fast, but ultimately you still have to figure out how far out to putt in order to get the ball to break into the cup. There is no formula or equation, like driving, that you can plug in and get a pretty near guaranteed made putt. I wish it was that easy. It's not. You won't believe how many putts I miss by a couple of inches because I just happen to misjudge the break by that much. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that there are a good 6 to 8 putts per game that I am just off on. That's the difference between my 2 under par and somebody else's 10 under par. But sure, by all means, if you can show me an aid that will improve my game by 8 strokes a round, I'll learn how to use it. My gut tells me it's not that easy. Otherwise, everybody would be shooting these same scores. After all, there is no physical skill involved here. Everybody drives 100%. Everybody has the same tech. So it can't be the aids alone that are making players 40 under per tourney. There has to be more to it.
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Post by Doyley on Nov 26, 2015 19:46:59 GMT -5
Those players don't understand it then It'd be like players saying they don't want to use grids on the green because they don't understand reading the dots. They just do the best they can without grids and it's working for them. That is in essence what players are doing if they choose not to use the putting marker north/south. If anyone wants a more in depth tutorial make a post and I'll come on by! I understand all that. And even using the grids and the moving dots, sure, it tells you the direction the green is sloping and relatively how fast, but ultimately you still have to figure out how far out to putt in order to get the ball to break into the cup. There is no formula or equation, like driving, that you can plug in and get a pretty near guaranteed made putt. I wish it was that easy. It's not. You won't believe how many putts I miss by a couple of inches because I just happen to misjudge the break by that much. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that there are a good 6 to 8 putts per game that I am just off on. That's the difference between my 2 under par and somebody else's 10 under par. But sure, by all means, if you can show me an aid that will improve my game by 8 strokes a round, I'll learn how to use it. My gut tells me it's not that easy. Otherwise, everybody would be shooting these same scores. After all, there is no physical skill involved here. Everybody drives 100%. Everybody has the same tech. So it can't be the aids alone that are making players 40 under per tourney. There has to be more to it. My point is that using the putting marker north south, you can dial in your distances on any putt. Every putt I take I set up to roll 3 feet past the hole (there is a pretty proven formula for this in my spreadsheet). As long as I hit decent power, the putting marker will aid that and 95% of the putts I make roll past (or in) the hole at a reasonable speed - and if I miss I have a short tap in. The game already aids players on uphill putts but it's not completely accurate. Where it hurts you is on downhill putts (notice the marker always stays at the hole for downhill putts?). Still up to you to aim correctly but I'd rather know my putt will reach the hole than rely on the unreliable auto-uphill setting or get boned by a downhill putt due to the marker being at the hole.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2015 19:54:48 GMT -5
I understand all that. And even using the grids and the moving dots, sure, it tells you the direction the green is sloping and relatively how fast, but ultimately you still have to figure out how far out to putt in order to get the ball to break into the cup. There is no formula or equation, like driving, that you can plug in and get a pretty near guaranteed made putt. I wish it was that easy. It's not. You won't believe how many putts I miss by a couple of inches because I just happen to misjudge the break by that much. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that there are a good 6 to 8 putts per game that I am just off on. That's the difference between my 2 under par and somebody else's 10 under par. But sure, by all means, if you can show me an aid that will improve my game by 8 strokes a round, I'll learn how to use it. My gut tells me it's not that easy. Otherwise, everybody would be shooting these same scores. After all, there is no physical skill involved here. Everybody drives 100%. Everybody has the same tech. So it can't be the aids alone that are making players 40 under per tourney. There has to be more to it. My point is that using the putting marker north south, you can dial in your distances on any putt. Every putt I take I set up to roll 3 feet past the hole (there is a pretty proven formula for this in my spreadsheet). As long as I hit decent power, the putting marker will aid that and 95% of the putts I make roll past (or in) the hole at a reasonable speed - and if I miss I have a short tap in. The game already aids players on uphill putts but it's not completely accurate. Where it hurts you is on downhill putts (notice the marker always stays at the hole for downhill putts?). Still up to you to aim correctly but I'd rather know my putt will reach the hole than rely on the unreliable auto-uphill setting or get boned by a downhill putt due to the marker being at the hole. So you're telling me that where the marker is, even if we don't use it, affects how far the ball goes?
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Post by Doyley on Nov 26, 2015 20:50:42 GMT -5
My point is that using the putting marker north south, you can dial in your distances on any putt. Every putt I take I set up to roll 3 feet past the hole (there is a pretty proven formula for this in my spreadsheet). As long as I hit decent power, the putting marker will aid that and 95% of the putts I make roll past (or in) the hole at a reasonable speed - and if I miss I have a short tap in. The game already aids players on uphill putts but it's not completely accurate. Where it hurts you is on downhill putts (notice the marker always stays at the hole for downhill putts?). Still up to you to aim correctly but I'd rather know my putt will reach the hole than rely on the unreliable auto-uphill setting or get boned by a downhill putt due to the marker being at the hole. So you're telling me that where the marker is, even if we don't use it, affects how far the ball goes? Most times yes. The marker has a range (think magic circle) around it. If your putt power gets in that circle (short or long) the game will adjust your power close to the marker - the closer your power is to the center (where the marker is) the more the game adjusts it in your favour (ie to where marker is since you put it where you want your power to be). That's why it can hinder you if you are not putting that marker at your desired putting weight. By power I mean the moment you stop pulling your putter back and start the follow through. You can move that marker out to max distance and still play a perfectly fine round of golf - you would get no aid on your putts and whatever power you hit it would be reflected on the green. Once you reintroduce the marker you'll have that aid back where if you mean to hit a 30 foot putt but only gave it 27 feet of power...if the marker was set at 30 feet the game would change your 27 feet of power to 29.5 or something close by to 30. Without the aid of the marker you're stuck at 27 feet. This is why it's most noticeable on downhill putts since the marker doesn't auto-adjust (still wonder why they decided to do it for uphill putts only). Take this example. - 15 foot putt - 4 inches downhill - I would set my marker at the 11 foot mark and try hit enough power to make an 11 foot putt. Shot 1 (with moving marker to 11 feet from my golfer) I pull back and shoot 12 feet of power - game changes it to 11 feet since i'm close to the marker - putt goes 16 feet (in or miss w/ tap in) Shot 2 (default marker) Default marker is right on or around the hole on downhill putts - I pull back and get 12 feet of power. The marker is at 16 feet - game adjusts my power to 15 feet of power since I just got into the Markers magic circle of aid. I miss the hole and it goes 12 feet past since i hit a downhill putt that now has 15 foot of power. The marker borked my decent putt because I failed to move it close on a downhill putt - even though my original set power wasn't terrible - the marker adjusts it not in my favour For what it's worth - the auto-uphill marker is accurate about 50% of the time...the other 50% you'd be better off with my formula and adjusting it. Hope that helps - once you wrap your head around the markers functionality it becomes much clearer and reinforces the importance of using it on every putt. For those of you that choose to ignore the marker you'd almost be better off moving it off the green. I would also suggest a few practice rounds doing that as it helps you dial in longer putting distances. Once you can hit 45 feet comfortably w/out the aid of the marker you're that much better off once you re-introduce it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2015 21:26:37 GMT -5
So you're telling me that where the marker is, even if we don't use it, affects how far the ball goes? Most times yes. The marker has a range (think magic circle) around it. If your putt power gets in that circle (short or long) the game will adjust your power close to the marker - the closer your power is to the center (where the marker is) the more the game adjusts it in your favour (ie to where marker is since you put it where you want your power to be). That's why it can hinder you if you are not putting that marker at your desired putting weight. By power I mean the moment you stop pulling your putter back and start the follow through. You can move that marker out to max distance and still play a perfectly fine round of golf - you would get no aid on your putts and whatever power you hit it would be reflected on the green. Once you reintroduce the marker you'll have that aid back where if you mean to hit a 30 foot putt but only gave it 27 feet of power...if the marker was set at 30 feet the game would change your 27 feet of power to 29.5 or something close by to 30. Without the aid of the marker you're stuck at 27 feet. This is why it's most noticeable on downhill putts since the marker doesn't auto-adjust (still wonder why they decided to do it for uphill putts only). Take this example. - 15 foot putt - 4 inches downhill - I would set my marker at the 11 foot mark and try hit enough power to make an 11 foot putt. Shot 1 (with moving marker to 11 feet from my golfer) I pull back and shoot 12 feet of power - game changes it to 11 feet since i'm close to the marker - putt goes 16 feet (in or miss w/ tap in) Shot 2 (default marker) Default marker is right on or around the hole on downhill putts - I pull back and get 12 feet of power. The marker is at 16 feet - game adjusts my power to 15 feet of power since I just got into the Markers magic circle of aid. I miss the hole and it goes 12 feet past since i hit a downhill putt that now has 15 foot of power. The marker borked my decent putt because I failed to move it close on a downhill putt - even though my original set power wasn't terrible - the marker adjusts it not in my favour For what it's worth - the auto-uphill marker is accurate about 50% of the time...the other 50% you'd be better off with my formula and adjusting it. Hope that helps - once you wrap your head around the markers functionality it becomes much clearer and reinforces the importance of using it on every putt. For those of you that choose to ignore the marker you'd almost be better off moving it off the green. I would also suggest a few practice rounds doing that as it helps you dial in longer putting distances. Once you can hit 45 feet comfortably w/out the aid of the marker you're that much better off once you re-introduce it. OMG! That explains why when I get a 16 ft putt on a surface that's 8 inches downhill and I barely pull back on the stick my ball goes flying past the hole and I don't understand why. So you're saying if I have a 16 ft putt with an 8 inch downhill grade, I should bring the marker so that it's only 8 ft away from me (1 ft for each inch) and that will make my 16 ft putt come closer to the hole even if I hit it "regularly" for that distance? If that is so, then yes, that will make a huge difference. I just want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly.
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Post by Doyley on Nov 26, 2015 22:24:03 GMT -5
OMG! That explains why when I get a 16 ft putt on a surface that's 8 inches downhill and I barely pull back on the stick my ball goes flying past the hole and I don't understand why. So you're saying if I have a 16 ft putt with an 8 inch downhill grade, I should bring the marker so that it's only 8 ft away from me (1 ft for each inch) and that will make my 16 ft putt come closer to the hole even if I hit it "regularly" for that distance? If that is so, then yes, that will make a huge difference. I just want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly. Yep - you probably hit 10 feet of power but the marker sitting at 16 feet is "aiding" your misplaced power and giving you 14 feet...which isn't helping you:) Keep in mind if you are bringing the marker to 8 ft (16 foot putt, 8inch downhill) you are now trying to hit 8 feet worth of power (not 16 feet) any then anything close to that 8 feet (6,7,9,10 feet of power) will be adjusted closer to 8 feet. Yes you are understanding correctly. For uphill putts it's not a simple 1:1 ratio though. Have a look in the Driving Range. There's a stickied thread there called Tips/Tricks - in that is a link to a spreadsheet - in that spreadsheet there's a tab on putting - I explain the uphill formula there and a bit on the downhill formula. That'll get you started. Now that you understand the marker you can adjust for green speeds. You can tell green speed by how far the putter goes. Max speed is 187 foot putter. Slowest speed is 106 or so foot putter. So if you are down hill on a 187 speed green and you have a 16 foot putt that is 8 inches down - I'd probably bring the marker back to 4 feet and love tap it. If it was 100 foot sludge greens I might put the marker at 12 feet. Have a feeling you're going to see a whole new game once you dial in that marker.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2015 22:34:50 GMT -5
OMG! That explains why when I get a 16 ft putt on a surface that's 8 inches downhill and I barely pull back on the stick my ball goes flying past the hole and I don't understand why. So you're saying if I have a 16 ft putt with an 8 inch downhill grade, I should bring the marker so that it's only 8 ft away from me (1 ft for each inch) and that will make my 16 ft putt come closer to the hole even if I hit it "regularly" for that distance? If that is so, then yes, that will make a huge difference. I just want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly. Yep - you probably hit 10 feet of power but the marker sitting at 16 feet is "aiding" your misplaced power and giving you 14 feet...which isn't helping you:) Keep in mind if you are bringing the marker to 8 ft (16 foot putt, 8inch downhill) you are now trying to hit 8 feet worth of power (not 16 feet) any then anything close to that 8 feet (6,7,9,10 feet of power) will be adjusted closer to 8 feet. Yes you are understanding correctly. For uphill putts it's not a simple 1:1 ratio though. Have a look in the Driving Range. There's a stickied thread there called Tips/Tricks - in that is a link to a spreadsheet - in that spreadsheet there's a tab on putting - I explain the uphill formula there and a bit on the downhill formula. That'll get you started. Now that you understand the marker you can adjust for green speeds. You can tell green speed by how far the putter goes. Max speed is 187 foot putter. Slowest speed is 106 or so foot putter. So if you are down hill on a 187 speed green and you have a 16 foot putt that is 8 inches down - I'd probably bring the marker back to 4 feet and love tap it. If it was 100 foot sludge greens I might put the marker at 12 feet. Have a feeling you're going to see a whole new game once you dial in that marker. I am going to have to check out the spreadsheet because trying to do this with a 1 to 1 ratio, my putts were infinitely worse than not using the marker at all. I have to get used to a completely different mental "pull back the stick" mode. right now, my pull back amount on putts using the marker is so bad that I'm shooting 6 to 8 over par on courses that I was shooting par or slightly under on. So for now, I'll practice using the marker but for playing the tourneys, at least until I get the marker down, I'm going to play my current method. I'm used to it and, for the most part, it works to a degree. It's only on the really extreme putts (mostly the downhill ones) that it totally lets me down.
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Post by Doyley on Nov 26, 2015 22:40:35 GMT -5
quick version of the formual
150% of elevation + putt distance (this gets you right to the hole) + 2 feet (this ensures you're never short)
20 foot putt 8 inches up = put marker at 34 feet (6 ft more than 1:1 would be - which would leave you well short if you put marker at 28 ft)
Make sure when setting your putting power you try to hit 34 feet (always hit the power to where you set the marker)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2015 22:42:08 GMT -5
quick version of the formual 150% of elevation + putt distance (this gets you right to the hole) + 2 feet (this ensures you're never short) 20 foot putt 8 inches up = put marker at 34 feet (way more than 1:1 would be) What about downhill putts?
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Post by Doyley on Nov 26, 2015 22:43:52 GMT -5
quick version of the formual 150% of elevation + putt distance (this gets you right to the hole) + 2 feet (this ensures you're never short) 20 foot putt 8 inches up = put marker at 34 feet (way more than 1:1 would be) What about downhill putts? Downhill is closer to 1:1 - I usually take off a foot or two for quicker greens 20 foot putt - 8 inches downhill = 12 feet on normal greens, 10 feet on fast greens, 14 feet on slow greens type thing
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2015 22:52:55 GMT -5
What about downhill putts? Downhill is closer to 1:1 - I usually take off a foot or two for quicker greens 20 foot putt - 8 inches downhill = 12 feet on normal greens, 10 feet on fast greens, 14 feet on slow greens type thing Okay, let me give this a shot.
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Post by ABU_Bear on Nov 27, 2015 1:58:05 GMT -5
Trust me man...moving the marker closer or further away to judge distances is a waste of time if you're not getting it. Go by feel. You'll eventually just be able to move left or right ...aim..and bang those suckers in at an alarming rate. It's all feel. Strongly disagree - learning how to properly use the putting marker is the best use of your time in my opinion. It's an aid the game gives you and chosing not to use it is putting you at a disadvantage to all those that do. Need to learn how to use it and go from there - suggest you read my putting page on the Tips/Tricks spreadsheet to get an idea of what to do - then watch a few of the PGA/Euro/Web twitch feeds that are out there and pay attention to what they do with the marker while putting. There are instances where not using the putting marker will hurt you - For example on downhill putts - you'll hit your desired distance but if the marker is close to the hole the game will give you more yardage causing you to miss by 10 feet instead of 2 feet. If you moved the marker closer to you (ie the distance you want to hit the putt) it would then aid you in getting that specific distance instead of you trying to do it no-aids style. No offence...but I tried your tips and methods and I just couldn't get a feel for it. Since then I've been just going by feel and not touching the marker at all or a minimal amount if I do move it(north/south) and my game has improved 10 fold. I will eventually revisit the marker tips and trends..but for now...the "feel method" for putting is getting me good results so I'm not about to mess with it.
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Post by bogeyman on Nov 27, 2015 2:14:07 GMT -5
Strongly disagree - learning how to properly use the putting marker is the best use of your time in my opinion. It's an aid the game gives you and chosing not to use it is putting you at a disadvantage to all those that do. Need to learn how to use it and go from there - suggest you read my putting page on the Tips/Tricks spreadsheet to get an idea of what to do - then watch a few of the PGA/Euro/Web twitch feeds that are out there and pay attention to what they do with the marker while putting. There are instances where not using the putting marker will hurt you - For example on downhill putts - you'll hit your desired distance but if the marker is close to the hole the game will give you more yardage causing you to miss by 10 feet instead of 2 feet. If you moved the marker closer to you (ie the distance you want to hit the putt) it would then aid you in getting that specific distance instead of you trying to do it no-aids style. No offence...but I tried your tips and methods and I just couldn't get a feel for it. Since then I've been just going by feel and not touching the marker at all or a minimal amount if I do move it(north/south) and my game has improved 10 fold. I will eventually revisit the marker tips and trends..but for now...the "feel method" for putting is getting me good results so I'm not about to mess with it. I know where you're coming from Jim 'cos I've been exactly the same. But..... I can't help but think now is this the missing piece of the puzzle? I think that we both can keep up with the big guys and it's pretty much only the putting that separates us. I would hate to be held back from CC-A or Web because I wasn't utilising all the tools of the game. Anyway I'm glad this subject came up again 'cos I'm gonna revisit it and see where it leads.
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Post by ABU_Bear on Nov 27, 2015 2:17:52 GMT -5
No offence...but I tried your tips and methods and I just couldn't get a feel for it. Since then I've been just going by feel and not touching the marker at all or a minimal amount if I do move it(north/south) and my game has improved 10 fold. I will eventually revisit the marker tips and trends..but for now...the "feel method" for putting is getting me good results so I'm not about to mess with it. I know where you're coming from Jim 'cos I've been exactly the same. But..... I can't help but think now is this the missing piece of the puzzle? I think that we both can keep up with the big guys and it's pretty much only the putting that separates us. I would hate to be held back from CC-A or Web because I wasn't utilising all the tools of the game. Anyway I'm glad this subject came up again 'cos I'm gonna revisit it and see where it leads. I realize that it is more than likely the missing piece to making that final surge up the tiers, but right now I'm just focused on consistency and comfort as I am starting to put together some nice scores week in and week out. like I said, I'll revisit it, but with where I am now compared to 2 months ago, I'm more than happy with that progression.
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Post by bogeyman on Nov 27, 2015 2:24:10 GMT -5
I know where you're coming from Jim 'cos I've been exactly the same. But..... I can't help but think now is this the missing piece of the puzzle? I think that we both can keep up with the big guys and it's pretty much only the putting that separates us. I would hate to be held back from CC-A or Web because I wasn't utilising all the tools of the game. Anyway I'm glad this subject came up again 'cos I'm gonna revisit it and see where it leads. I realize that it is more than likely the missing piece to making that final surge up the tiers, but right now I'm just focused on consistency and comfort as I am starting to put together some nice scores week in and week out. like I said, I'll revisit it, but with where I am now compared to 2 months ago, I'm more than happy with that progression. What's this?? Are you mellowing out a bit Jim? I thought you were impatient Jim "pave the way" McCarthy. Just kidding
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