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Post by mcbogga on Mar 26, 2015 20:29:16 GMT -5
I see this a lot in this debate pitch it short and run it up Nobody plays golf like that anywhere in the world. They used to a long time ago before modern equipment and more so modern turf grass conditions. The #1 player in the world couldn't play like that if his life depended on it in fact the proof is he can't win at Augusta because he can't manage golf courses that aren't letting him throw darts all day. He grew up where "links golf" which is nothing more than a catchphrase now since the British is played just like every pga tour event... fly the ball to the hole and stop it on a dime. The only time anyone there is thinking knockdown etc is if the wind kicks up to ridiculous amounts. If a 7 iron is hit from a tight lie by a good golfer it stops right away... period. It doesn't on firm and fast in this game because their ridiculous settings that don't work due to poor ball spin physics. Everyone loves this weeks event because it's going to have lower scores... I personally will finish better than I ever have and why is that? Because I got lucky a lot. firm/fast rewards lucky pinball bounces. I've played many of the top Open venue courses and Augusta, Pinehurst, Bethpage and a slew of other top tier tournament courses. None of them play like firm/fast does in this game. All this week did was bring luck more into the deciding factor on who does well. I still think normal Bison Run was going to be an awesome tour stop... it's a top 3 course in the game imo. Obviously the trend here is going to repeat these conditions moving forward... it will do great to help scoring in computer golf but it's nothing like the real sport it's trying to simulate. Count how many great iron shots roll more than 10 feet at Augusta in a few weeks... fastest greens they play all year and you won't see many unless it's due to slopes like #16 etc. You are not wrong ADX. There still may be a couple of stops per year where conditions are close to "firm/fast" on the real tours, but of course a 7I usually stops. I've played a couple of concrete courses in amateur tornaments and usually its because of inexperienced Tournament managers that overrate the level of the players. The best would be if we can use "normal" courses on tour, of course. I just don't think the game lets us do that right now. For the game however, assuming we want to battle the low 50 rounds and score compression and boredom that follows, something needs to be done. I think that the most unbalanced part of this game is putting. If you look at approach shots from ghosts it's not like even the best players are sticking every pin. The issue is that a 10 feet putt is practically a gimme unless the pin placement is tricked up. This is the main factor that is causing the lower scores. Average putts per green stat is ridiculous for all of us. There is a very simple solution that brings putting down to "tour" level - remove the green grid. I know that there is a massive resistance against this, but it is perfectly playable after a short adjustment period. With the mind-set that an 8 footer should be automatic it is terrible of course, but compared to real world sink rates of around 50% it plays really well. Add on no wind speed and scout cam and also approach shot dispersion widens a little bit and will be real close to the real world. That way the "easier" courses can feature on tour - even be the mainstay - and these fast firm monsters peak their heads occasionally to humble us a bit. Just my take - but the play over at Matt10s RGT is really enjoyable and I think that tour is proof of concept that there is nothing broken with no aids play. I know Doyley had a full sim tour ages ago that did not take off, but maybe know the community is starting to mature. I know there is a rather large "I want to shoot -25 over 18 holes" crowd here, but I have no understanding for that way of thinking. A golf game should feel like golf.
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Post by edi_vedder on Mar 26, 2015 20:36:51 GMT -5
Haha... this statement definitely does not apply as far as myself is concerned. Even with grids turned on, I'd say that putting is the most difficult part of the game. So I wish it will not be turned off one day. But you know, everybody has another experience of the game.
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Post by Doyley on Mar 26, 2015 22:01:29 GMT -5
I see this a lot in this debate pitch it short and run it up Nobody plays golf like that anywhere in the world. They used to a long time ago before modern equipment and more so modern turf grass conditions. The #1 player in the world couldn't play like that if his life depended on it in fact the proof is he can't win at Augusta because he can't manage golf courses that aren't letting him throw darts all day. He grew up where "links golf" which is nothing more than a catchphrase now since the British is played just like every pga tour event... fly the ball to the hole and stop it on a dime. The only time anyone there is thinking knockdown etc is if the wind kicks up to ridiculous amounts. If a 7 iron is hit from a tight lie by a good golfer it stops right away... period. It doesn't on firm and fast in this game because their ridiculous settings that don't work due to poor ball spin physics. Everyone loves this weeks event because it's going to have lower scores... I personally will finish better than I ever have and why is that? Because I got lucky a lot. firm/fast rewards lucky pinball bounces. I've played many of the top Open venue courses and Augusta, Pinehurst, Bethpage and a slew of other top tier tournament courses. None of them play like firm/fast does in this game. All this week did was bring luck more into the deciding factor on who does well. I still think normal Bison Run was going to be an awesome tour stop... it's a top 3 course in the game imo. Obviously the trend here is going to repeat these conditions moving forward... it will do great to help scoring in computer golf but it's nothing like the real sport it's trying to simulate. Count how many great iron shots roll more than 10 feet at Augusta in a few weeks... fastest greens they play all year and you won't see many unless it's due to slopes like #16 etc. You are not wrong ADX. There still may be a couple of stops per year where conditions are close to "firm/fast" on here. For the game however, assuming we want to battle the low 50 rounds and score compression and boredom that follows, something needs to be done. I think that the most unbalanced part of this game is putting. If you look at approach shots from ghosts it's not like even the best players are sticking every pin. The issue is that a 10 feet putt is practically a gimme unless the pin placement is tricked up. This is the main factor that is causing the lower scores. Average putts per green stat is ridiculous for all of us. There is a very simple solution that brings putting down to "tour" level - remove the green grid. I know that there is a massive resistance against this, but it is perfectly playable after a short adjustment period. With the mind-set that an 8 footer should be automatic it is terrible of course, but compared to real world sink rates of around 50% it plays really well. Add on no wind speed and scout cam and also approach shot dispersion widens a little bit and will be real close to the real world. That way the "easier" courses can feature on tour - even be the mainstay - and these fast firm monsters peak their heads occasionally to humble us a bit. Just my take - but the play over at Matt10s RGT is really enjoyable and I think that tour is proof of concept that there is nothing broken with no aids play. I know Doyley had a full sim tour ages ago that did not take of, but maybe know the community is starting to mature. I know there is a rather large "I want to shoot -25 over 18 holes" crowd here, but I have no understanding for that way of thinking. A golf game should feel like golf. You keep rallying the troops and I'll be there! Unfortunately, it's a mode I don't think is ready for prime time - it's still very niche.
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Post by Knock25Out on Mar 26, 2015 22:08:24 GMT -5
Another thing lacking is more options for firmness. HB has said they are three, others say there are a few more, the fact remains that there needs to be more settings because medium is like darts, firm is like asphalt. Needs to be a few more settings to make things more interesting and challenging.
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Post by edi_vedder on Mar 26, 2015 22:13:27 GMT -5
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Post by MrSourNinja on Mar 28, 2015 11:51:40 GMT -5
... what direction we are moving in the area of selecting courses.
Let me just say before this discussion opens up that I am not here to hurt and feelings and would kindly ask that while, this is a very touchy discussion, you try to keep everyone's feelings in mind.
Now, I know there have been smaller discussions based upon course difficultly in the past I would like reinvigorate the conversation. The problem for me: Not the firmness or speed of the course this week (Fire Rock Ranch) but the green complexes combined with the speed. Never in my life have I seen so many red and yellow slopes on greens. Now don't get me wrong I believe they have a place, in fact I have a few on my current under construction courses, but to have as many as there were with that high of a speed setting is absurd. In what world does it make sense that if I hit a ball outside of 10 feet diameter from the hole, I should be punished with ridges that move my ball 30 feet or more away? In what world should I have a green sloping back to front severely on a downhill par 3? You can't leave it short because if you do you have a putt that goes down 20 inches on a red slope. Land it on the slope? Nope, rockets miles away. Land pin high? Nope firmness will put that sucker over the green. Where do I play then?
Some pin locations that come to mind being unfair are: 1, 5, 9, ect the list goes on and on.
What I am trying to say is that I know course selection is hard because you have to balance play-ability and difficulty along with trying to not make people like me mad (sorry.) But I don't think we can just take courses that are designed to be played with one set of conditions and turn up the sliders and be okay. It just doesn't keep the course playable. Maybe we can get designers to smooth slopes or change pin locations while turning up conditions I don't know but I found this week that even while playing a good safe shot to the middle of the green you could still be unlucky enough to end up with a 70 foot putt.
I love TGCT and really appreciate all the work everybody has put in to make it what it is; I wrote this because I want TGCT to be the best that it can be and in this area I think we can get better.
p.s. Please don't say I'm just writing this in rage because earlier this week I brought up my disappointment on some of the pins on Fire Rock Ranch. I harbored the idea that maybe after the tourney my mind would change. It did, from negative to super negative.
p.s.2. And yes I have played real life golf, I do pretty much every day when the weather is decent and yes I have played some difficult courses including the Web.com Tour annual stop at Ohio State Scarlet golf course and yet even those greens didn't have nearly this many harsh slopes.
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Post by bentfivewood on Mar 28, 2015 11:59:13 GMT -5
Lots of different discussions on this topic. Please use this thread only. Other discussions will be locked and redirected here.
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Post by Doyley on Mar 28, 2015 12:49:59 GMT -5
... what direction we are moving in the area of selecting courses. Let me just say before this discussion opens up that I am not here to hurt and feelings and would kindly ask that while, this is a very touchy discussion, you try to keep everyone's feelings in mind. Now, I know there have been smaller discussions based upon course difficultly in the past I would like reinvigorate the conversation. The problem for me: Not the firmness or speed of the course this week (Fire Rock Ranch) but the green complexes combined with the speed. Never in my life have I seen so many red and yellow slopes on greens. Now don't get me wrong I believe they have a place, in fact I have a few on my current under construction courses, but to have as many as there were with that high of a speed setting is absurd. In what world does it make sense that if I hit a ball outside of 10 feet diameter from the hole, I should be punished with ridges that move my ball 30 feet or more away? In what world should I have a green sloping back to front severely on a downhill par 3? You can't leave it short because if you do you have a putt that goes down 20 inches on a red slope. Land it on the slope? Nope, rockets miles away. Land pin high? Nope firmness will put that sucker over the green. Where do I play then? Some pin locations that come to mind being unfair are: 1, 5, 9, ect the list goes on and on. What I am trying to say is that I know course selection is hard because you have to balance play-ability and difficulty along with trying to not make people like me mad (sorry.) But I don't think we can just take courses that are designed to be played with one set of conditions and turn up the sliders and be okay. It just doesn't keep the course playable. Maybe we can get designers to smooth slopes or change pin locations while turning up conditions I don't know but I found this week that even while playing a good safe shot to the middle of the green you could still be unlucky enough to end up with a 70 foot putt.
I love TGCT and really appreciate all the work everybody has put in to make it what it is; I wrote this because I want TGCT to be the best that it can be and in this area I think we can get better.
p.s. Please don't say I'm just writing this in rage because earlier this week I brought up my disappointment on some of the pins on Fire Rock Ranch. I harbored the idea that maybe after the tourney my mind would change. It did, from negative to super negative.
p.s.2. And yes I have played real life golf, I do pretty much every day when the weather is decent and yes I have played some difficult courses including the Web.com Tour annual stop at Ohio State Scarlet golf course and yet even those greens didn't have nearly this many harsh slopes.
I'm enjoying the new challenge and find that people are still shooting low enough. Take this week's real PGA event. In round 1 most of the field were shooting mid-70's. Couldn't imagine our boards if we had that There are ways to play these courses and it takes some adjusting. You will be making longer putts for birdie than you are used to. But it's possible. DLW shot 60 on Fire Rock Ranch in practice on PS4. Tarheelbuc shot 59 on the PC before the tournaments had started. There are low scores to be had but it takes an exceptional round which is what we are looking for. Again, this is all fairly temporary since HB has stated that they will look into giving much more flexibility with regards to green/fairway firmness in the future. For now this is what we have to play with and while some may find it too difficult or unrealistic, the end result is that everyone is still posting 60's with relative ease on the top tours. I find a lot of people were worried that their scores weren't good - came on here to voice their concern - then as the week went on realized that they weren't nearly as bad as they had thought. Just look at all the leaderboards. We have lots of new faces in contention (Hi ADX!) that likely wouldn't be where they are if it was a dart throwing contest. Ninja, to your point of the yellow and red slopes - I tend to disagree. I think that's half the issue to begin with since everyone was making greens that were very simple. I just don't buy it that on the PGA there's no red or yellow slopes around holes. I've seen plenty of putts in my day that were hard breaking around the hole. It just takes the thought process to another level and if you miss a putt on the wrong side or wrong weight, it's just that much more punishing - which is great for the pro tours and a reason why we're keeping the other two tours away from these harder settings (minus Shawnee Creek of course - that was a tough course). At the end of the day, we'll never please everyone - it's just a given. But when we look at the leaderboards we (admin) keep commenting on how much nicer they look the last few weeks compared to the weeks the winners were in the -70's.
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Post by MrSourNinja on Mar 28, 2015 13:25:46 GMT -5
... what direction we are moving in the area of selecting courses. Let me just say before this discussion opens up that I am not here to hurt and feelings and would kindly ask that while, this is a very touchy discussion, you try to keep everyone's feelings in mind. Now, I know there have been smaller discussions based upon course difficultly in the past I would like reinvigorate the conversation. The problem for me: Not the firmness or speed of the course this week (Fire Rock Ranch) but the green complexes combined with the speed. Never in my life have I seen so many red and yellow slopes on greens. Now don't get me wrong I believe they have a place, in fact I have a few on my current under construction courses, but to have as many as there were with that high of a speed setting is absurd. In what world does it make sense that if I hit a ball outside of 10 feet diameter from the hole, I should be punished with ridges that move my ball 30 feet or more away? In what world should I have a green sloping back to front severely on a downhill par 3? You can't leave it short because if you do you have a putt that goes down 20 inches on a red slope. Land it on the slope? Nope, rockets miles away. Land pin high? Nope firmness will put that sucker over the green. Where do I play then? Some pin locations that come to mind being unfair are: 1, 5, 9, ect the list goes on and on. What I am trying to say is that I know course selection is hard because you have to balance play-ability and difficulty along with trying to not make people like me mad (sorry.) But I don't think we can just take courses that are designed to be played with one set of conditions and turn up the sliders and be okay. It just doesn't keep the course playable. Maybe we can get designers to smooth slopes or change pin locations while turning up conditions I don't know but I found this week that even while playing a good safe shot to the middle of the green you could still be unlucky enough to end up with a 70 foot putt.
I love TGCT and really appreciate all the work everybody has put in to make it what it is; I wrote this because I want TGCT to be the best that it can be and in this area I think we can get better.
p.s. Please don't say I'm just writing this in rage because earlier this week I brought up my disappointment on some of the pins on Fire Rock Ranch. I harbored the idea that maybe after the tourney my mind would change. It did, from negative to super negative.
p.s.2. And yes I have played real life golf, I do pretty much every day when the weather is decent and yes I have played some difficult courses including the Web.com Tour annual stop at Ohio State Scarlet golf course and yet even those greens didn't have nearly this many harsh slopes.
I'm enjoying the new challenge and find that people are still shooting low enough. Take this week's real PGA event. In round 1 most of the field were shooting mid-70's. Couldn't imagine our boards if we had that There are ways to play these courses and it takes some adjusting. You will be making longer putts for birdie than you are used to. But it's possible. DLW shot 60 on Fire Rock Ranch in practice on PS4. Tarheelbuc shot 59 on the PC before the tournaments had started. There are low scores to be had but it takes an exceptional round which is what we are looking for. Again, this is all fairly temporary since HB has stated that they will look into giving much more flexibility with regards to green/fairway firmness in the future. For now this is what we have to play with and while some may find it too difficult or unrealistic, the end result is that everyone is still posting 60's with relative ease on the top tours. I find a lot of people were worried that their scores weren't good - came on here to voice their concern - then as the week went on realized that they weren't nearly as bad as they had thought. Just look at all the leaderboards. We have lots of new faces in contention (Hi ADX!) that likely wouldn't be where they are if it was a dart throwing contest. Ninja, to your point of the yellow and red slopes - I tend to disagree. I think that's half the issue to begin with since everyone was making greens that were very simple. I just don't buy it that on the PGA there's no red or yellow slopes around holes. I've seen plenty of putts in my day that were hard breaking around the hole. It just takes the thought process to another level and if you miss a putt on the wrong side or wrong weight, it's just that much more punishing - which is great for the pro tours and a reason why we're keeping the other two tours away from these harder settings (minus Shawnee Creek of course - that was a tough course). At the end of the day, we'll never please everyone - it's just a given. But when we look at the leaderboards we (admin) keep commenting on how much nicer they look the last few weeks compared to the weeks the winners were in the -70's. I understand that the scores needed to come down and yes it looks better this way but I sincerely believe that there are other ways to make a course difficult besides making the greens putt-putt esq. And to be honest Doyley I have to disagree with you. I watch a lot of PGA Tour golf and I think you'd be hard pressed to find cup on a yellow or red degree of slope. Fast moving green slope? Yeah probably but not yellow or red. I know your not going to please everyone and I appreciate everything you guys do just thought I'd throw in my opinion.
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Post by dlw1964 on Mar 28, 2015 15:42:00 GMT -5
Fire Rock Ranch is a very fair & challenging course. Only hole 8 haven't been able to get my approach close. Currently played 4 practice rounds & 3 tournament rounds. Scoring comes down to course management, shot execution & putting.
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Post by MrSourNinja on Mar 28, 2015 16:42:47 GMT -5
I guess I'm in the minority on this one but I find the green complexes at Fire Rock Ranch (under the course conditions) to be unfair. There's always the next course though.
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Post by AFCTUJacko on Mar 28, 2015 16:51:11 GMT -5
Some of the greens at the Shakespeare are also a bit much too. But the way i see it the "toughening up" of courses has only just begun and lots of this work has been done in a short space of time - it's not likely to be perfect from the get go
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Post by dlw1964 on Mar 28, 2015 17:01:11 GMT -5
I guess I'm in the minority on this one but I find the green complexes at Fire Rock Ranch (under the course conditions) to be unfair. There's always the next course though. The next course Magnolia National is pretty much the same as Fire Rock.
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Post by edi_vedder on Mar 28, 2015 22:23:58 GMT -5
Generally I do very much agree with Doyley's latest statement.
As long as HB is not offering more variety of firmness and/or green settings, courses like latest Shakespeare, Fire Rock Ranch or the Belmont are the way TGCTours should go. As soon as we see more options in the GNCD, it might be a good idea to ease courses a bit (again), still making it challenging enough for the Pros out there.
But regarding the actual situation "on the course", I also have two little things to complain about (and those might be what Ninja ment as well):
1.) I personally don't have any problem with sloped greens, even if they are red or yellow. If I play on any of the Pro Tours, I need to see when a pin is situated on plateau A, react accordingly, and make a good shot. If I don't, I'll miss that plateau, land on plateau B and am going to be left with a (very) long putt. That's okay.
But what I really, really hate is when the cup is located on/inside that red/yellow slope. That doesn't make sense, and that does not happen in reality I think. At least I haven't seen it on any course that I've played in real life so far.
2.) The second (little) complaint is again about firmness of the course/greens. If I have to land my approach shot 10y-20y in front of the green just to make sure it stops anywhere near the pin, a lot of luck(y bounce) is involved. I don't blame the course designers on that, I think we have to keep the fingers crossed for HB that they'll provide us with settings that allow both:
Challenging but rewarding (and not depending on luck) gameplay!
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Post by MrSourNinja on Mar 28, 2015 22:35:47 GMT -5
I guess I'm in the minority on this one but I find the green complexes at Fire Rock Ranch (under the course conditions) to be unfair. There's always the next course though. The next course Magnolia National is pretty much the same as Fire Rock. I disagree. I think the slopes at magnolia are in much more normal spots (ie fronts of greens) as well as there being less red and yellow.
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