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Post by MrSourNinja on Mar 28, 2015 22:37:20 GMT -5
Generally I do very much agree with Doyley's latest statement. As long as HB is not offering more variety of firmness and/or green settings, courses like latest Shakespeare, Fire Rock Ranch or the Belmont are the way TGCTours should go. As soon as we see more options in the GNCD, it might be a good idea to ease courses a bit (again), still making it challenging enough for the Pros out there. But regarding the actual situation "on the course", I also have two little things to complain about (and those might be what Ninja ment as well): 1.) I personally don't have any problem with sloped greens, even if they are red or yellow. If I play on any of the Pro Tours, I need to see when a pin is situated on plateau A, react accordingly, and make a good shot. If I don't, I'll miss that plateau, land on plateau B and am going to be left with a (very) long putt. That's okay. But what I really, really hate is when the cup is located on/inside that red/yellow slope. That doesn't make sense, and that does not happen in reality I think. At least I haven't seen it on any course that I've played in real life so far. 2.) The second (little) complaint is again about firmness of the course/greens. If I have to land my approach shot 10y-20y in front of the green just to make sure it stops anywhere near the pin, a lot of luck(y bounce) is involved. I don't blame the course designers on that, I think we have to keep the fingers crossed for HB that they'll provide us with settings that allow both: Challenging but rewarding (and not depending on luck) gameplay! The issue I have is when pins are on the tough slopes like you said but also when there is a random tier in the middle of the green, that if you hit it, on won't let you keep the ball while putting on the green.
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Post by coruler2 on Mar 28, 2015 23:46:12 GMT -5
Generally I do very much agree with Doyley's latest statement. As long as HB is not offering more variety of firmness and/or green settings, courses like latest Shakespeare, Fire Rock Ranch or the Belmont are the way TGCTours should go. As soon as we see more options in the GNCD, it might be a good idea to ease courses a bit (again), still making it challenging enough for the Pros out there. But regarding the actual situation "on the course", I also have two little things to complain about (and those might be what Ninja ment as well): 1.) I personally don't have any problem with sloped greens, even if they are red or yellow. If I play on any of the Pro Tours, I need to see when a pin is situated on plateau A, react accordingly, and make a good shot. If I don't, I'll miss that plateau, land on plateau B and am going to be left with a (very) long putt. That's okay. But what I really, really hate is when the cup is located on/inside that red/yellow slope. That doesn't make sense, and that does not happen in reality I think. At least I haven't seen it on any course that I've played in real life so far. 2.) The second (little) complaint is again about firmness of the course/greens. If I have to land my approach shot 10y-20y in front of the green just to make sure it stops anywhere near the pin, a lot of luck(y bounce) is involved. I don't blame the course designers on that, I think we have to keep the fingers crossed for HB that they'll provide us with settings that allow both: Challenging but rewarding (and not depending on luck) gameplay! The issue I have is when pins are on the tough slopes like you said but also when there is a random tier in the middle of the green, that if you hit it, on won't let you keep the ball while putting on the green. I appreciate the feedback on the new setup. I think I accomplished what the majority of the community was looking for with the setup (predicted winner around -45, predicted cut around -13)...and I knew pins on 1, 8, and 13 would probably be the toughest out there. But there are spots to play these holes to and still have a realistic chance at birdie. If you never played the standard version, go give that one a try and see if you like it better...you'll quickly see how most of these tough pins were actually too simple before, and probably gimme birdies for 80% of the field.
In general, we are trying to get the tour-used versions out sooner, so you can play both the PGA and Euro setups and pick your favorite from the two before registering. Since these versions came out a little late this week, it was too late to switch if you didn't find one likable. We are working to fix that in the future.
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Post by MrSourNinja on Mar 28, 2015 23:50:15 GMT -5
The issue I have is when pins are on the tough slopes like you said but also when there is a random tier in the middle of the green, that if you hit it, on won't let you keep the ball while putting on the green. I appreciate the feedback on the new setup. I think I accomplished what the majority of the community was looking for with the setup (predicted winner around -45, predicted cut around -13)...and I knew pins on 1, 8, and 13 would probably be the toughest out there. But there are spots to play these holes to and still have a realistic chance at birdie. If you never played the standard version, go give that one a try and see if you like it better...you'll quickly see how most of these tough pins were actually too simple before, and probably gimme birdies for 80% of the field.
In general, we are trying to get the tour-used versions out sooner, so you can play both the PGA and Euro setups and pick your favorite from the two before registering. Since these versions came out a little late this week, it was too late to switch if you didn't find one likable. We are working to fix that in the future.
I have in fact played the original and I found those specific pin positions much more applicable with the slower speeds. I appreciate all you guys are doing and trying to get the courses out earlier is very nice of you guys. Thanks again. Just because I didn't like them doesn't mean you should alter your design process. Just my ideas vs yours.
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Post by roflwaffle5000 on Mar 31, 2015 1:02:53 GMT -5
I enjoy the push for harder courses, but there is a point when it becomes unfair especially the "greed speed and slope around the hole" issue; however, I have had no unfairness issues yet in any of the courses selected so far!
It disgusts me when people say A HOLE CUT ON OR NEAR YELLOW IS BAD. It is important to remember that a hole CAN be cut close to or slightly on yellow slopes, so long as the speeds allow for this. A slower green can have larger slopes because the speed allows it; however, a fast green should try to keep holes away from yellow much more.
I can't wait for the US Open Design competition because there are currently 52 applicants. That means 52 challenging courses that could be used for future events. I can't wait to be challenged!
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Post by mcbogga on Mar 31, 2015 4:11:16 GMT -5
Exactly. A pin where the ball cannot stop and where it will roll back on a put from below the hole is not fair. A pin where ball can be stopped but if hit more than two feet past will continue another 10-15 feet is perfectly fair. Maybe not fun, but fair.
Those times on TV when it looks like a pro has hit a decent approach to 15-20 feet and then the picture cuts to a look of disgust on their face - it's not because they are delusional, it's many times because they just left themselves one of those putts.
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Post by AFCTUJacko on Mar 31, 2015 6:20:00 GMT -5
Exactly. A pin where the ball cannot stop and where it will roll back on a put from below the hole is not fair. A pin where ball can be stopped but if hit more than two feet past will continue another 10-15 feet is perfectly fair. Maybe not fun, but fair. Those times on TV when it looks like a pro has hit a decent approach to 15-20 feet and then the picture cuts to a look of disgust on their face - it's not because they are delusional, it's many times because they just left themselves one of those putts. Agree with this. However there were a couple of holes on the Shakespeare where if you knocked it 2ft by you'd be 30ft+ away or even off the green, which in my view is too much. On most holes, changing the pin position in addition to making the course firmer and the green fast was enough to make them hard to birdie without the crazy slopes IMO. We're definitely heading in the right direction though
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Post by smoknpirate on Mar 31, 2015 7:27:50 GMT -5
2 ft past and a long roll to 20ft plus is completely reasonable in my opinion. If you're on the wrong side of the hole then defensive play is what's called for. If you really want to make that putt you have to be willing to take the penalty if you miss. Or, you lag it up close with a small possibility of making, but willing to take an extra gimme stroke rather than a very long come-backer.
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mozzalini
Weekend Golfer
Posts: 116
TGCT Name: Mozzalini
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Post by mozzalini on Mar 31, 2015 16:48:11 GMT -5
2 ft past and a long roll to 20ft plus is completely reasonable in my opinion. If you're on the wrong side of the hole then defensive play is what's called for. If you really want to make that putt you have to be willing to take the penalty if you miss. Or, you lag it up close with a small possibility of making, but willing to take an extra gimme stroke rather than a very long come-backer. This. Spot on. And I'm one of those that would be going 20ft-plus past the whole! Watch the Masters next week and see how this is exactly what can happen.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 18:02:18 GMT -5
Magnolia is nothing like Fire Rock - it's a golf course that exists in real life and there are no holes on the side of slopes there. There are slopes and there are instances it's tough to get to the hole location without perfect but playing a 1 foot break on a 3 foot putt does not happen... except on the new tgc tours pga tour setups.
Some of you might not be aware but there are requirements on hole locations and in fact there are levelness minimums that must be met on any hole cut into a pga tour event green. There are several holes this week that simply wouldn't be able to be used... period.
I've played Augusta... never saw a single putt like several this week in fact with the speed of their greens you wouldn't be able to get the ball to stop... EVER... if some of the hole locations like this week were used there.
Stop thinking this game has to mimic real life when it's not even close to doing so. These tweaks exists to do one thing and that's lower scoring they do not exist to somehow resemble "real life" or more realistic play.
This is a video game.
Say that once more
This is a video game.
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Post by edi_vedder on Mar 31, 2015 19:51:34 GMT -5
Very good statement.
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Post by mcbogga on Mar 31, 2015 20:37:19 GMT -5
Magnolia is nothing like Fire Rock - it's a golf course that exists in real life and there are no holes on the side of slopes there. There are slopes and there are instances it's tough to get to the hole location without perfect but playing a 1 foot break on a 3 foot putt does not happen... except on the new tgc tours pga tour setups. Some of you might not be aware but there are requirements on hole locations and in fact there are levelness minimums that must be met on any hole cut into a pga tour event green. There are several holes this week that simply wouldn't be able to be used... period. I've played Augusta... never saw a single putt like several this week in fact with the speed of their greens you wouldn't be able to get the ball to stop... EVER... if some of the hole locations like this week were used there. Stop thinking this game has to mimic real life when it's not even close to doing so. These tweaks exists to do one thing and that's lower scoring they do not exist to somehow resemble "real life" or more realistic play. This is a video game. Say that once more This is a video game. I think you are right about mimicing real life - as this produces far too easy courses (from a tour play perspective) in game. But what is worth striving for IMHO is to mimic the feel of real life golf - and the only way to produce knee-knocker 4 footers or any challenge in the lag putting in this video-game is - sadly - to trick up the pin placement since putting is too easy with grid. Severe slopes is not a perfect answer for adding difficulty in putting, certainly not as a prevailing part of set ups. But set-ups will become better as they find the happy medium (even if Bison was already really good). This way of playing is miles more "realistic" than the -70 birdiefests in either case.
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Post by dlw1964 on Apr 1, 2015 5:08:56 GMT -5
Fire Rock was a great warm up course for the Master's. The players that can't handle fire rock are going to have a tough week at the Master's.
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Post by dylan42 on Apr 1, 2015 5:26:46 GMT -5
I have to disagree. Fire Rock is no fun but Magnolia is. Also on Fire Rock I had the invisible break issue a lot. You know, when there is no discernible break but the ball breaks 3 holes left or right. The bottom line for me is, a difficult course doesn't have to have all the joy sucked out of it.
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Post by bentfivewood on Apr 1, 2015 5:47:57 GMT -5
Exactly. A pin where the ball cannot stop and where it will roll back on a put from below the hole is not fair. A pin where ball can be stopped but if hit more than two feet past will continue another 10-15 feet is perfectly fair. Maybe not fun, but fair. Those times on TV when it looks like a pro has hit a decent approach to 15-20 feet and then the picture cuts to a look of disgust on their face - it's not because they are delusional, it's many times because they just left themselves one of those putts. Agree with this. However there were a couple of holes on the Shakespeare where if you knocked it 2ft by you'd be 30ft+ away or even off the green, which in my view is too much. On most holes, changing the pin position in addition to making the course firmer and the green fast was enough to make them hard to birdie without the crazy slopes IMO. We're definitely heading in the right direction though I actually love these setups. Too often I watch guys power thru the break with no real consequence for missing. Playing the break and lag putting is an art.
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Post by MrSourNinja on Apr 1, 2015 6:43:07 GMT -5
Fire Rock was a great warm up course for the Master's. The players that can't handle fire rock are going to have a tough week at the Master's. I disagree completely. I have gone low on Magnolia and Fire Rock. I simply didn't enjoy fire rock due to some of the bad pin positions and just rushed thru my last 3 rounds when things started going haywire in round 2. On the other hand this is for a Major Tournament so you can expect 110%. (Also there are no unfair pins at Magnolia.)
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