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Post by staypuft39 on Dec 3, 2018 10:45:04 GMT -5
The problem is, not many designers complete courses like this. Not a ton of appeal in making a course that only 5% of players can score on. I've long thought about doing a super tough course...but the payoff for months of hard work seems to be 95% of people saying your course is crap. No thanks. I enjoyed the week too, but I doubt we have more than 3 or 4 of these courses floating around out there that don't look/play like garbage. I'd much rather see some GOOD courses get fitted with new tees/pins than see us playing architectural junk (which is what is needed to pose a huge challenge most times). Should be a great design contest then. I know we had a US Open one Season 1 or 2 to create the toughest but fairest course you could design. We had some real doozies. Others were then used for future events. Good times! I've barked up that tree before for a US Open contest but no response from the powers that be. You're right, it would create tough courses made by top designers for a great prize. Seems perfect so hopefully some wheels can get turning there. We have a great CC-level design contest but a top-tour contest is definitely lacking.
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Post by KenTremendous on Dec 3, 2018 10:47:30 GMT -5
Fu*k me thats a stern test in R1, hurricane winds, pencil thin fairways and many par 4's that cant even be reached in two. Its not a bad course, but the conditions made it an almost impossible ask. I was +3 at one point, managed to get back to E at the end but yeah, not a great way to step back up the top level
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Post by Kenny on Dec 3, 2018 10:57:16 GMT -5
This may be the best course all year. No idea how this is the minor PGA event. Was just inside the Top 50 in FedEx but would have loved if this was the regular event as this is what I have been asking for. I did play Round 1 yesterday before not knowing where I would be and managed a -5. Par is a great score on many holes, play smart, and birdies are few and far between. We need more like this Dale coruler2 1x per month. Please! The problem is, not many designers complete courses like this. Not a ton of appeal in making a course that only 5% of players can score on. I've long thought about doing a super tough course...but the payoff for months of hard work seems to be 95% of people saying your course is crap. No thanks. I enjoyed the week too, but I doubt we have more than 3 or 4 of these courses floating around out there that don't look/play like garbage. I'd much rather see some GOOD courses get fitted with new tees/pins than see us playing architectural junk (which is what is needed to pose a huge challenge most times). I didn’t curse Pablo once during any of my four rounds...honest (ahem). It was a great pick with really testing conditions making it helluva hard to score well on. But afterwards there was a wry smile on my face as it was great fun trying!!
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Post by rob4590 on Dec 3, 2018 10:58:42 GMT -5
Should be a great design contest then. I know we had a US Open one Season 1 or 2 to create the toughest but fairest course you could design. We had some real doozies. Others were then used for future events. Good times! I've barked up that tree before for a US Open contest but no response from the powers that be. You're right, it would create tough courses made by top designers for a great prize. Seems perfect so hopefully some wheels can get turning there. We have a great CC-level design contest but a top-tour contest is definitely lacking. The question would be - is it possible to create both types of course in the same design? What I mean by that is - create a super tough, super long, tight course with very firm and very fast greens, with tucked pins on ledges, long irons in etc for the PGA - and then by changing to forward tees you make the fairways much wider at the point that CC players will then hit it to - and then have short irons in, soften the greens up and make them slower (so in theory easier). Could produce two pin sets as another option - PGA (tough and tucked) and CC (central and flat and easy(er))
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Post by staypuft39 on Dec 3, 2018 11:03:40 GMT -5
The problem is, not many designers complete courses like this. Not a ton of appeal in making a course that only 5% of players can score on. I've long thought about doing a super tough course...but the payoff for months of hard work seems to be 95% of people saying your course is crap. No thanks. I enjoyed the week too, but I doubt we have more than 3 or 4 of these courses floating around out there that don't look/play like garbage. I'd much rather see some GOOD courses get fitted with new tees/pins than see us playing architectural junk (which is what is needed to pose a huge challenge most times). I didn’t curse Pablo once during any of my four rounds...honest (ahem). It was a great pick with really testing conditions making it helluva hard to score well on. But afterwards there was a wry smile on my face as it was great fun trying!! Totally agree. This course is absolutely one of those handful that is a great test without feeling too forced (and even then, with milder winds -10 is a pretty reasonable round here). I am fearful of seeing some not-well-designed RCR's and fictional "tough" courses though. I much prefer courses like this on very high winds.
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Post by staypuft39 on Dec 3, 2018 11:30:08 GMT -5
I've barked up that tree before for a US Open contest but no response from the powers that be. You're right, it would create tough courses made by top designers for a great prize. Seems perfect so hopefully some wheels can get turning there. We have a great CC-level design contest but a top-tour contest is definitely lacking. The question would be - is it possible to create both types of course in the same design? What I mean by that is - create a super tough, super long, tight course with very firm and very fast greens, with tucked pins on ledges, long irons in etc for the PGA - and then by changing to forward tees you make the fairways much wider at the point that CC players will then hit it to - and then have short irons in, soften the greens up and make them slower (so in theory easier). Could produce two pin sets as another option - PGA (tough and tucked) and CC (central and flat and easy(er)) I mean, it SHOULD be possible, but when I think about courses that challenge the TGC pros the most, they have: - large forced carries - very steep hazards/chances at bogey or worse - lots of inconvenient trees - island greens/cape greens - wickedly sculpted greens with a ton of runoffs And none of those are very convenient for beginner players. Plus, those beginner players would have to play the appropriate tees, which I don't think anyone does. They choose the tips and let it fly. I'd like to think architectural value could stop the best players at this game, but I just don't think it can. You have to resort to some dirty tricks and then hope for wind. That said, if anyone knows of a course like this IRL or in this game, I'd love to hear about it. I may be forgetting a gem that does just this.
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Post by rob4590 on Dec 3, 2018 11:45:12 GMT -5
I mean, it SHOULD be possible, but when I think about courses that challenge the TGC pros the most, they have: - large forced carries - very steep hazards/chances at bogey or worse - lots of inconvenient trees - island greens/cape greens - wickedly sculpted greens with a ton of runoffs And none of those are very convenient for beginner players. Plus, those beginner players would have to play the appropriate tees, which I don't think anyone does. They choose the tips and let it fly. I'd like to think architectural value could stop the best players at this game, but I just don't think it can. You have to resort to some dirty tricks and then hope for wind. That said, if anyone knows of a course like this IRL or in this game, I'd love to hear about it. I may be forgetting a gem that does just this. Well in theory, TPC Sawgrass was supposed to be the real life version of 'that course' when it was designed back in the 70's - but then you now see them shooting 63 round it - so that didn't work for too long!!! You could never make a real life course that will challenge TGC players properly - as any such course would be simply unplayable in real life. Real life US Open courses - level par wins (and they hate it like R3 at Shinnecock earlier this year!) - that got taken apart in-game too.... The two TGC2 courses that were probably closest to being 'that tough' were Widows Cliffs and Brookledge?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2018 12:02:08 GMT -5
The problem is, not many designers complete courses like this. Not a ton of appeal in making a course that only 5% of players can score on. I've long thought about doing a super tough course...but the payoff for months of hard work seems to be 95% of people saying your course is crap. No thanks. I enjoyed the week too, but I doubt we have more than 3 or 4 of these courses floating around out there that don't look/play like garbage. I'd much rather see some GOOD courses get fitted with new tees/pins than see us playing architectural junk (which is what is needed to pose a huge challenge most times). Should be a great design contest then. I know we had a US Open one Season 1 or 2 to create the toughest but fairest course you could design. We had some real doozies. Others were then used for future events. Good times! And one of those courses, Falcon Bay, was just used on the Euro Tour last week.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2018 12:52:12 GMT -5
My favorite events the last 5 years were the ones held at Harbour Pointe in Season 1 and at Dunas Del Pinet in Season 3. Both were extremely tough and par was actually a par and not a bogey. It's probably been 2 years since the last event that had a couple of holes play over par. Will be interesting to see Whats going on tomorrow after Dwain was commenting in Cunucks stream that the PGA isn't fun and Tim needs to step in. What about the players that do want a tough event once every two years? I'll give the 1st round a go tonight after work. Got my t shirt ready to go though:
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Post by mellowswe on Dec 3, 2018 13:07:46 GMT -5
Couple of good rounds to start, 66-61 for a -13 at the halfway point. Now if only I can get the putter going in the final 2 rds... =)
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Post by SweetTeeBag on Dec 3, 2018 13:31:54 GMT -5
What about the players that do want a tough event once every two years? It should once per month at a minimum. I can't believe people enjoy shooting -60 every week. It's not fun where par is like a bogey. I really don't get the mentality but that's just me I guess.
Twin Lakes is a tough but fair test where you need to think before each shot. Driver off the tee isn't always the right club. The winds really push this to the limits. It doesn't get much better than this IMO. The current leaderboard is something to behold not seen many times around these parts.
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Post by GW_Hope on Dec 3, 2018 14:05:07 GMT -5
I love when you feel like you gained with a birdie. As long as it plays fair. Sounds like this one does. Looking forward to it.
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Post by gordyberry on Dec 3, 2018 14:30:27 GMT -5
Mixed bag opening 68. Only really disappointing because I was bogey-free -4 through 14. I thought I should have been able to go at least -1 the rest of the way looking back at how those closing holes played, but two pulls off the tee didn't help.
At least I was able to finally putt well, though that's a byproduct of spraying the ball everywhere and just making sure to fix my mistakes. 5 fairways, 7 greens, and 22 putts, though I did chip one in and made a putt from the fringe. Considering my season average is a hair under 27 putts, that's wonderful.
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Post by SweetTeeBag on Dec 3, 2018 14:31:39 GMT -5
I love when you feel like you gained with a birdie. As long as it plays fair. Sounds like this one does. Looking forward to it. For sure. Not a fan of just aim down the middle of fairway and hit driver and get your 100% driving accuracy stat. Take a look at your surroundings and play smart. There are scoring holes out there but you have to be patient and pick your spots.
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Post by Crazycanuck1985 on Dec 3, 2018 16:25:02 GMT -5
Feel like the Canadian in me should chime in here. First off, I want to apologize to Chris as I ripped the course pretty hard on my stream yesterday. Much of it was due to frustration and not warranted and the more I think of it, it was less to do with the actual course and more to do with the Round 1 setup.
Just to clarify, I have always been in the camp of preferring tougher courses. I almost always (well, not this week) finish better on tougher courses with tougher conditions. I enjoy difficult winds, but it just seemed like every single hole in R1 the wind was not at your advantage. 480-510 yard par 4s with a 21 mph headwind is no fun, especially when its impossible to reach in two. This happened at least twice in Round 1. Round 2 was miles better, I just didn't hit the ball well at all, adding to the frustration. It was just a real grind that I found un-enjoyable. Maybe put a super tough round like this as R2,3 or 4? Also, why the heck was this course a minor tourney stop? This was big tournament/major quality of difficulty. I think that threw me off as well.
I usually don't mind the grind some weeks, even when I play poorly, but those round 1 conditions just sucked the fun out of the entire tournament for me. So again, my apologies Chris, emotions just got the better of me, it just wasn't a good week for me on tour.
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