S10 - test event 1 - Legend on TST?

[fransslabak]

Dear TST enthusiasts,

With the start of season 10 looming, I’d like to hear your thoughts on switching to Legend for TST. Now that our Xbox friends have gone to razor-like polling points, it might be the right time to do this… or would most of you pull out if we did? Let me have your thoughts, preferably based on actually trying it in one of our two test events (starting Sunday 10 and Sunday 17).

If we move to Legend, should we have a cut or not?

And, for the record, switching to Legend IS an option; all other settings will remain the same and the marker will NOT be removed… just saying… 😎

Obviously, I am counting on hammers1man , longpole , and friends to play this and tell all their friends to do the same.

Also, pollingpoints , counting on you to get some more Pro players involved.

Anyway, let me know how you would feel about this switch.

Best wishes
Frans

[Craig / Hendomedes]

Thanks for trying this out Frans. Will definitely play this tomorrow.

Personally speaking I quite like the no cut on TST. And I think it would work even better with legend as there would be more ebb and flow throughout the four rounds and allow people to shoot up on the last two if they get hot.

Hopefully goes down well 👍

[honeybadger64]

When all this hubbub started a few weeks ago, rather than just saying over and over, no, I went away and played some rounds on legend difficulty. I wouldn't want to just repeat my personal opinion without some evidence.

The results of playing that difficulty with grids on were, from a personal point of view, disappointing. It just felt like going back to the dreadful days of red fasts and unfathomable tempo. Big misses to both sides from swings that felt the same. Huge shortfall of approaches penalising small errors.

I have spent two years grinding away through the frustration of TST, gaining some degree of understanding of how to guess which way the ball will go, I have achieved mid-level mediocrity bouncing around the the middle of the middle tier. I even derive a small amount of enjoyment out of playing (for the most part) real courses I recognise from the telly.

For me making it any more difficult will remove the last element of fun and enjoyment from something I value and enjoy. I will not be putting myself through any of these events and if these are the levels chosen for next season, I, for one, will not be participating.

[Craig / Hendomedes]

Sept 9, 2023 14:42:00 GMT -5 honeybadger64 said:

When all this hubbub started a few weeks ago, rather than just saying over and over, no, I went away and played some rounds on legend difficulty. I wouldn't want to just repeat my personal opinion without some evidence.

The results of playing that difficulty with grids on were, from a personal point of view, disappointing. It just felt like going back to the dreadful days of red fasts and unfathomable tempo. Big misses to both sides from swings that felt the same. Huge shortfall of approaches penalising small errors.

I have spent two years grinding away through the frustration of TST, gaining some degree of understanding of how to guess which way the ball will go, I have achieved mid-level mediocrity bouncing around the the middle of the middle tier. I even derive a small amount of enjoyment out of playing (for the most part) real courses I recognise from the telly.

For me making it any more difficult will remove the last element of fun and enjoyment from something I value and enjoy. I will not be putting myself through any of these events and if these are the levels chosen for next season, I, for one, will not be participating.

I'll just come back on this as one of the guys who has been pushing for a more difficult tour for years. And not to be argumentive at all btw I fully respect your decision and by no means take it for granted that TST will go legend. I'm just glad they're trying it out.

Essentially it boils down to providing a totally different experience from the main tours. In much the same way as 3-click your does but in the other direction. It brings the strategy a little closer to real golf and - most importantly I think - takes away certainty. The uncertainty of playing on legend is the only thing that makes this game enjoyable for me. And a few others. I know we're in the minority and I get it. A lot of people have built their game around, and enjoy, that certainty... counting, grids, beads, marker, vibration, forgiving misses on master etc. and ultra low scoring. But honestly I find that incredibly boring. That's not a judgement btw, simply a preference. I don't think I'm better than them. In fact I'm certain I'm not! But I simply don't enjoy playing that way. And moreover, if we're talking about rankings I don't think it's a very worthy way to determine those. It would be - imo - like having ranked leagues on Assetto Corsa with the braking line and brake assist on, counter strike tournaments with aim assist enabled (don't know if CS even has aim assist but you get me). In that regard honestly hand on heart I don't think legend WITH marker on is far enough for my own personal preference but look I'm realistic and I know that marker has become integral.to how the vast majority play and I'm just pleasantly surprised to see TST even try legend.

I've been playing mostly legend since TGC went to pro two years ago. And - again I'm not being argumentative or dismissive here - but that point about the swings differing is simply untrue. You get the exact same polling points and results but the forgiveness is simply reduced. It may be that you're a little tense knowing the difficulty is harder and snatching or holding back a little. But I am as certain as certain can be that there is no additional randomness on shot outcomes.

Essentially, and this might sound arrogant or something but I don't mean it to be, not every tour needs to be for everyone. In my opinion. TGC may well disagree. I can't tell them what's right or wrong it's their tour obviously but I hope I've always been at least transparently attempting to be respectful when offering feedback. In the same way not everyone needs to play three click not everyone needs to play TST. And ideally I would say why not have two tst divisions one master as is and one legend everything off. But then you have the poor bugger Frans in the middle trying to keep the whole thing viable and getting sh%$ from all sides. So, really, just a long ramble about the other side. Not trying to demean you in any way and I hope that's clear. Likewise not trying to force my opinion on anyone else or assume that I should have any say on how this tour is run. The only thing Frans owes any of us is for us to send him a crate of Dutch beer as a thank you for keeping us engaged in the game for five years in my case. Any suggestions I make are because I sincerely believe that a) they make the game better and would be a much better way to play a four round tournament and tour and b) hand on heart I think if people gave them time they would come to see how much more rewarding and realistic they are, especially if you have any interest in golf in real life.

Hope that comes across as intended mate. I would be very happy to play a round sometime with anyone on mic on my settings to try and give some insight as I think often the tone and intent of posts are lost on here and it devolves a little (maybe my fault on occasion).

[Deleted]

Sept 9, 2023 14:42:00 GMT -5 honeybadger64 said:

When all this hubbub started a few weeks ago, rather than just saying over and over, no, I went away and played some rounds on legend difficulty. I wouldn't want to just repeat my personal opinion without some evidence.

The results of playing that difficulty with grids on were, from a personal point of view, disappointing. It just felt like going back to the dreadful days of red fasts and unfathomable tempo. Big misses to both sides from swings that felt the same. Huge shortfall of approaches penalising small errors.

I have spent two years grinding away through the frustration of TST, gaining some degree of understanding of how to guess which way the ball will go, I have achieved mid-level mediocrity bouncing around the the middle of the middle tier. I even derive a small amount of enjoyment out of playing (for the most part) real courses I recognise from the telly.

For me making it any more difficult will remove the last element of fun and enjoyment from something I value and enjoy. I will not be putting myself through any of these events and if these are the levels chosen for next season, I, for one, will not be participating.

I think this is the whole point of difficulty in the game where for some it being too hard is frustrating and others it being golf on rails easy just boring. I have played legend no aids including without the awful marker in this game and I generally average par. It is not tempo I struggle with, it is swingplane and on legend swingplane is much more difficult. But I absolutely love this difficulty, there is something about a real SIM mode without any needless aids that feels pure and challenging. There should be more than just a single SIM difficulty. What TST has now and the real SIM challenge of an ultra sim tour and especially no friggin marker. Play the same courses but have 2 different tours master/legend would be a big evolution to sim golf on TGCTours.

[Deleted]

Sept 9, 2023 11:58:41 GMT -5 fransslabak said:

Dear TST enthusiasts,

With the start of season 10 looming, I’d like to hear your thoughts on switching to Legend for TST. Now that our Xbox friends have gone to razor-like polling points, it might be the right time to do this… or would most of you pull out if we did? Let me have your thoughts, preferably based on actually trying it in one of our two test events (starting Sunday 10 and Sunday 17).

If we move to Legend, should we have a cut or not?

And, for the record, switching to Legend IS an option; all other settings will remain the same and the marker will NOT be removed… just saying… 😎

Obviously, I am counting on hammers1man , longpole , and friends to play this and tell all their friends to do the same.

Also, pollingpoints , counting on you to get some more Pro players involved.

Anyway, let me know how you would feel about this switch.

Best wishes
Frans

I don't get this the fixation that having no marker is just not an option.
For 5 years now USE has had this setting and nobody complains about it. We have tampered with shot restrictions in 2K21 and shot shaper in TGC2019 etc but no marker has always never been an issue.
I remember when TST went from marker to marker only, it was pitchforks because nobody could sweep the green with the marker for elevation info anymore. We had the same old crap then that it was impossible to read greens without numbers for elevation.
2 weeks later it's forgotten about as people actually learned to read greens with the camera angles rather than digits.
That unsitely marker which is not only ugly should not be in the SIM mode of the game at all. There is a big sim community that does not like playing with it and I am certainly one of those.
Thanks for the invite Frans but I enjoy the game with no aids which includes no marker and legend difficulty. Would love to see a proper sim tour on TGCTours and will be surprised as since playing Matt's RGT I have only had that in societies that a few of us have created. Another level of TST with master for the less skilled would still be a SIM tour. Just not sure why after all these years marker only is considered sim.
I know a lot on TST play the other tours but from someone who has been playing sim golf only since 2014 on HB's games TGCTours is really missing something by not considering a legend no aids tour, it's a fantastic way to play the game. Tee to green you have a great challenge, putting you really have to watch your putt path as push and pulls are no way near as forgiving as master. It raises your game to a different level, for people who have been playing this game for years on TST why would you not want to raise your game to that level.

[weirsy2003]

This is a tricky topic but here are my thoughts. I enjoy Legend and think it’s quite a fair swing setting in 2K23. However, I think it’s probably best for overall participation levels to keep it on Master. TGC Tours are always caught between a rock and a hard place trying to appease the average player and I for one think they do a great job given the rather vocal minorities on either side of the spectrum wanting either a harder or easier game. I’ve recently discovered and play a couple societies that use Legend/no marker settings. As far as I know these aren’t exactly new but perhaps the names and formatting have changed. It’s important to note that neither are 4 round events. 1 is a handicapped 1 round event with roughly 3 events per week and the other is a 2 round scratch weekly tour. To my knowledge these are the largest societies playing “Ultra Sim” settings but each have roughly only 20 participants per event. With the re-introduction of EA golf (and other factors) TST and the main TGC tours have all seen a pretty dramatic reduction in weekly players. Some TST tournaments have only had 60 something players and that’s with no cut! All this is to say that I think if TST goes Legend you will lose the players who don’t want anything harder and the hard core golfers already have places to play. It would be great to have 1 big tour with the hardest possible settings but I just don’t think there’s enough demand for it. Another thing to consider is that nobody has unlimited time. As much as I enjoy playing all 3 Sim societies I’m not sure I can keep it up. Too many choices with similar settings/formats will ultimately lead to smaller societies that are harder to sustain which seems to be where we’re heading unfortunately.

[greyosprey]

I could be completely wrong, but I don't think Legend swing is going to increase the number of people playing TST. If anything, I think it will do the opposite.  That being said, as a CC-F player, Legend swing is playable on Xbox (XSX for me) even with a stock controller.   But casual players will probably struggle with it, especially no grids and some of these courses/conditions.   Personally, I find 2 rds of Legend difficulty far more tolerable than 4 rds.   If TST required all 4 rds to be played on Legend, I'd probably play even less than I already do, if at all.   If there was a way to bow out after 2 rds without penalty, I'd be more willing to play it.

I think there are 3 choices that should be considered.   And then a decision has to be made regarding eliminating flights and bringing back a cultine or not.   Personally, I'd like to see an option where a player could bow out after 2 rds without penalty.

1) Status quo - but bring back a cutline (bigger %) or no penalty for bowing out after 2 rds
2) Masters swing with no aiming marker (I know, but an alternative to Legend) - same regarding cutline
3) Legend with aiming marker - some form of cutline or no penalty for bowing out as long as 2 rds completed

[pat2020]

I want to give my own thoughts on the subject even though I doubt I will be able to play TGC at all this season.

First of all, TGC Tours only has a specific amount of societies to their disposal. I don't remember why specifically (Doyley would be the best person to answer why they can't add any more societies) but TGC can't add any more societies.

Now, we need to make one thing clear for everyone... TGC Tours has several thousand players... Frans will ponder a few things before making the final call.

I believe that Legend will bring a participation drop for TST, mostly because while the top tier players would be mostly fine with the move, the rest would probably be irritated by the move.

To me, Legend feels as a slightly tougher version of Master in 2K21 and easier than Legend was in 2K21. But it still can be challenging for the mid-tier player who loves to play TST.

Frans will have to decide if the interest is high enough that they can accept a smaller player base. They cannot have two separate TST because as I said above, it is not doable.

In the end, I would prefer having Platinum Tour on Legend over TST (Because it was an idea that was brought on before last season that was denied because of XBOX players not being able to play on it, back then) because it would be the closest thing to what Hendo would want and that is a specific tour for Legend and the rest on master.

But in the end, I feel like the status quo will be kept. Having that discussion is a good thing but we all need to remember that TGC Tours isn't making decisions for a few percent of his player base... But for the majority.

I know I rambled on a little too much lol

[longpole]

Hey all .
It's a welcome call Frans to try something a little different . I personally love playing legend and I certainly will give this a bash to try and make it happen as it will make the vibration boys work that little harder
(Vibration should be in difficulty settings) to make there partials stick to the pin .
My personal thoughts are TST numbers will drop with legend but will be more realistic with the scores .
With me im afraid it's all about the aiming marker that silly vibration aid that's not sim golf . I'd rather play master with marker off on TST , believe me on xbox numbers would be much better as all xbox sim society's play with no marker . So frans how about trying both perhaps before making your final decision.
I've never played with vibration but I did this morning for 5 mins and I couldn't believe how easy it is really I'll chuck up a clip on here in a sec .
So for me I'll play legend (with marker I suppose) but if it stays master with marker it's curtains as I know how easy it is and playing with players with vibration on its to hard to compete with some of the top players it's like too different difficultys
I know you can't please everybody but unfortunately it's the world these days.
Good luck out there fellow video game golfers 🏌️‍♂️ all the best 👍

[longpole]

[Craig / Hendomedes]

Sept 10, 2023 0:56:56 GMT -5 pat2020 said:

I want to give my own thoughts on the subject even though I doubt I will be able to play TGC at all this season.

First of all, TGC Tours only has a specific amount of societies to their disposal. I don't remember why specifically (Doyley would be the best person to answer why they can't add any more societies) but TGC can't add any more societies.

Now, we need to make one thing clear for everyone... TGC Tours has several thousand players... Frans will ponder a few things before making the final call.

I believe that Legend will bring a participation drop for TST, mostly because while the top tier players would be mostly fine with the move, the rest would probably be irritated by the move.

To me, Legend feels as a slightly tougher version of Master in 2K21 and easier than Legend was in 2K21. But it still can be challenging for the mid-tier player who loves to play TST.

Frans will have to decide if the interest is high enough that they can accept a smaller player base. They cannot have two separate TST because as I said above, it is not doable.

In the end, I would prefer having Platinum Tour on Legend over TST (Because it was an idea that was brought on before last season that was denied because of XBOX players not being able to play on it, back then) because it would be the closest thing to what Hendo would want and that is a specific tour for Legend and the rest on master.

But in the end, I feel like the status quo will be kept. Having that discussion is a good thing but we all need to remember that TGC Tours isn't making decisions for a few percent of his player base... But for the majority.

I know I rambled on a little too much lol

I think you, Weirsy, GreySprey and HoneyBadger all bring up a very relevant point that yes, if you put a gun to my head I agree with in all honesty, participation would drop. I guess in the end it's your guys call whether that is something worth having happen (on a separate tour) to offer a different experience, and if so is there a discussion for everything else off alongside legend as well, or would you still like TST to offer a similar gameplay experience without grids to keep participation up. And that's entirely on you guys for sure, I wouldn't presume to be able to influence that decision at all and respect your decision.

In theory I wonder if you did go all in whether this would have the more long -term shift of this becoming thought of in the same way as platinum. Because, to be clear, when I mentioned Assetto Corsa / Counter Strike comparison up there I'm more honing in on the grids, marker and / or vibration alongside legend rather than simply upping swing difficulty. Again, hoping this doesn't come across demanding or judgemental - fwiw I have no expectation Frans will consider taking it off, he's always been clear on that, and nor am I belittling the achievements of people who use those mechanics - I'm just firmly of the opinion that removing them gives a gameplay experience that differentiates it from having them on more than legend is a different experience to master. Albeit I'd be very happy to see even that switch on its own.

But at the end of the day you all have a ton of things to consider. It's not black and white. You have a playerbase that have grown accustomed to playing a particular way and a minority who would love to see a tour that essentially shuns all that for another experience all the whole having to survive on donations and work with limited society spots. I don't envy you and totally get any hesitancy to make sweeping changes as much as I'd welcome them. Hand on heart I had actually said to everyone I was never going to bring any of this up again on the forum because I'm conscious it causes animosity and I come across demanding, but just with it being brought up with the possible change I may as well chat one last time about it.

I ran Simulation Tour for a little while. 4 rounds, legend, no grids, no marker. Scoring varied around -5 to -20 for the winner. horusphoenix and I have played those settings whenever we play casual Matchplay rounds for years and I'd say if you don't shoot under par you aren't winning. Honestly I think that Simulation Tour proved two things. 1) those settings absolutely give the best challenge in the game and everyone who played enjoyed them (as far as they told me lol) and 2) you're all right. It's very niche. Would that change with the TGC banner endorsing them? Could it be factored into OWGR? Would longpole have a drink and abuse anyone who didn't play that way? Who knows, it's a risk, a lot of work, and no guarantees whatsoever. I'll play the test events regardless next two weeks and try to give honest feedback on the gameplay and some of the scoring from others. Watch me shoot +10 now and delete any trace of Hendomedes from the web 😂

Btw Pat just when you say you won't have time to play... I hope all is ok and that's because you're 'good busy' rather than anything else. I had a great time with RBT for a year or two chatting with you all in discord 👍

[Deleted]

Sept 10, 2023 1:50:04 GMT -5 longpole said:

And this is a valid point, it is not just an aid for putting but an aid for the whole short game. There is absolutely nothing simulation about moving a marker and hitting a backswing cue to a vibration aid for the selected carry distance. To me this is no different to playing with the swing meter on, no marker makes this more difficult.
On the subject of having a more equal difficulty across platforms what about mouse users? They have no option to use the vibration aid, that is hardly fair is it. Maybe just allow swing meter then so everyone can use the partial shot aid. I think the S in TST is totally ignored with marker only setting enabled.

[fransslabak]

I respectfully ask all of you to stick to providing feedback on Legend or Master, with all other settings as they are now. This is the choice we are deliberating, so input on that choice is helpful. Discussions on markers and vibration have been debated more than enough over the years and won’t help us make a decision on Legend versus Master for TST.

[Craig / Hendomedes]

Apologies Frans. Didn't mean to derail things. Moreso just trying to tease out what the objective would be for TST to go legend.

If it's to make it more difficult while accepting the possibility of lowering participation then I'd say yes it's a good move (but would maybe need to factor in some form of OWGR points to draw interest), if it's to make the game more 'sim' (I hate that term, it works and doesn't work, but you get me) honestly, maybe surprisingly, I'd say probably not. I don't think it really helps much in that regard without the other changes also and serves only to alienate the likes of the guys who have posted above while not really going far enough for pricks like me haha it's kind of in-between where neither party would be fully satisfied. All in my own opinion of course.

I think I tend to agree with Pat that if it's to create a more competitive swing difficulty scene the better solution would be for the pro tours to go legend (not just platinum, or hell if I get there quick in the new season yeah just platinum, what the hell haha) and keep TST as a more chilled out gridless experience on master that a lot of people seem to enjoy.

Hopefully that's useful. Certainly wasn't trying to strongarm a marker discussion or anything. Just thinking out loud on the reasoning behind legend here. If that makes sense!

And again, really appreciate the dialogue and the consideration of change. Said before and I'll say again, I'll play regardless 👍