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Post by carstoni92 on Jan 4, 2022 18:57:56 GMT -5
I am curious as to how the courses are selected for the events. There have been some really subpar ones so far this season, including the current one (Vendgarn). I find it odd that TGC Tours seems to do such an awesome job with the design community, but struggles to select quality courses for their season events. Am I missing something here? Positively love TGC Tours and the organization that goes into each season running smoothly is wildly impressive. Seems that it could just be a tad better with more high quality courses in the rotation.
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Post by sroel908 on Jan 4, 2022 19:59:57 GMT -5
I am curious as to how the courses are selected for the events. There have been some really subpar ones so far this season, including the current one (Vendgarn). I find it odd that TGC Tours seems to do such an awesome job with the design community, but struggles to select quality courses for their season events. Am I missing something here? Positively love TGC Tours and the organization that goes into each season running smoothly is wildly impressive. Seems that it could just be a tad better with more high quality courses in the rotation. Genuinely curious about your issues with with courses like Vendgarn, and what makes them "subpar". Is it the difficulty? The style of course? What do you consider a "high quality" course? I'm not sure what you mean in your statement... As far as how courses get picked, it all starts when a wannabe golf course designer and the video game PGA TOUR 2K21 fall in love... In all seriousness, a designer submits their created course here, a reviewer, well, reviews it, and gives it one of three designations: Not Approved, Approved, or Tour Worthy. Tour Worthy courses are put into a pool for TGCT schedulers to pick from. Schedulers check out the courses and select the ones they want on their tours. Then, rangers (full disclosure, I am one) are asked to play the courses to check for illegal pins and lag, and can offer impressions on how the course plays in various conditions. The schedulers take that info and set up the events how they wish.
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Post by carstoni92 on Jan 4, 2022 21:09:06 GMT -5
Majonoza Bay, Kidnappers Lookout, Redtail River, Blackwater Marsh Club, Butter's Bay, Whisper Dunes, Surprise Mountain Resort, Pinnacles Golf Club, Lost Preserve, Yeti Creek CC - Black (personal favorite), El Dorado, Blind Rabbit Golf Club, South Yarra GC, Vintage Ranch, Top of the Lake Club, Rising Fawn Country Club, Reverand Green Golf Club, Chiang Mai, Thailand, Oasis Beach Golf Club, Persephone Golf Club, Whiskey Dunes - Tour, Falling Water Golf Club (another favorite), Whiskey Trails, White Pepper Dunes, St. Cyrus, Kaiuma Bay, Aristida Dunes Club (another favorite), Lake Sofia GC, Old Faroe Dunes, Salish Ridge Golf Club, The Rock. I keep a running list of courses I really enjoy that I think play beautifully. These are from the first few pages of that list. I think most, if not all, are approved and/or Tour worthy. I would also argue that every course listed above is significantly better than Vendgarn. I don't think Vendgarn is too difficult. Probably the opposite actually. I just think it is a sloppy course. Greenside bunkers that run with up to the green with zero rough or even fringe. Tiny strips of fairway between bunkers and rough that would never exist on an actual golf course. Bare ground immediately off the green. That is just in the first 3 or 4 holes. It isn't a terrible course, just seems like a rushed design with not a lot of attention to detail. To be fair, I imagine it is not an easy task to plan out an easy task to plan out an entire season of courses. I know it takes a lot of time and effort on my part just to select 30 courses per season for my society. I was just curious what the process is for the course selections since there are are tons of better courses that could have likely been used instead. Appreciate you explaining how that works!
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Post by carstoni92 on Jan 4, 2022 21:12:38 GMT -5
I am curious as to how the courses are selected for the events. There have been some really subpar ones so far this season, including the current one (Vendgarn). I find it odd that TGC Tours seems to do such an awesome job with the design community, but struggles to select quality courses for their season events. Am I missing something here? Positively love TGC Tours and the organization that goes into each season running smoothly is wildly impressive. Seems that it could just be a tad better with more high quality courses in the rotation. Genuinely curious about your issues with with courses like Vendgarn, and what makes them "subpar". Is it the difficulty? The style of course? What do you consider a "high quality" course? I'm not sure what you mean in your statement... As far as how courses get picked, it all starts when a wannabe golf course designer and the video game PGA TOUR 2K21 fall in love... In all seriousness, a designer submits their created course here, a reviewer, well, reviews it, and gives it one of three designations: Not Approved, Approved, or Tour Worthy. Tour Worthy courses are put into a pool for TGCT schedulers to pick from. Schedulers check out the courses and select the ones they want on their tours. Then, rangers (full disclosure, I am one) are asked to play the courses to check for illegal pins and lag, and can offer impressions on how the course plays in various conditions. The schedulers take that info and set up the events how they wish. Also, just saw that you have done a RCR of Madeline Island! Definitely going to check that out. Played there a few times. Super interesting design with all the double greens.
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Post by sroel908 on Jan 4, 2022 22:43:10 GMT -5
Cool, I played Madeline Island in real life a year or so ago and really enjoyed it.
As for the courses you listed...I'm pretty sure those have been used on tour at one point or another, likely last season, as those are all pretty well known tracks. I think the idea of TGCT is to showcase new designs and new designers as often as possible and not go back and play the same ones over and over again.
Also, not all courses are suitable for all levels of play. It wouldn't make sense to put a really challenging course on CC level, in the same way it doesn't make sense to have a super easy track on Platinum.
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Post by carstoni92 on Jan 4, 2022 22:57:44 GMT -5
Nice. I last played there 3 summers ago.
What you’re saying about not repeating courses and showcasing new designs makes sense. I guess my preference would be that the level of courses be prioritized first over showcasing a new design just for the sake of showcasing a new design. But it’s not my society and I’ll continue to play them regardless. Just an observation I’ve made so far this season.
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Post by twofor22 on Jan 5, 2022 20:10:37 GMT -5
Greenside bunkers going right up to the green edge is actually a feature of the courses on the Melbourne sandbelt.
That course that's holding the special events thing this week is fantastic, but I gave up playing it after two rounds because the lag is ridiculous, at least on my system. Disappointing because although I'm not officially in that event, I was actually going well on the in game leaderboard.
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Post by sroel908 on Jan 5, 2022 21:41:03 GMT -5
Greenside bunkers going right up to the green edge is actually a feature of the courses on the Melbourne sandbelt. That course that's holding the special events thing this week is fantastic, but I gave up playing it after two rounds because the lag is ridiculous, at least on my system. Disappointing because although I'm not officially in that event, I was actually going well on the in game leaderboard. I rangered the course that's being used in the Champions event, and there was a bit of lag, but none that caused any issues when playing. I think courses tend to be more prone to really bad lag once they're added to a society for some reason.
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Post by twofor22 on Jan 5, 2022 22:37:23 GMT -5
Greenside bunkers going right up to the green edge is actually a feature of the courses on the Melbourne sandbelt. That course that's holding the special events thing this week is fantastic, but I gave up playing it after two rounds because the lag is ridiculous, at least on my system. Disappointing because although I'm not officially in that event, I was actually going well on the in game leaderboard. I rangered the course that's being used in the Champions event, and there was a bit of lag, but none that caused any issues when playing. I think courses tend to be more prone to really bad lag once they're added to a society for some reason. I found it affected putting more than tee to green shots. With those I just focus on keeping the tempo on point, but putting I often use the putter head as a guide to distance control, and when it lags I often end up hitting it too hard. I might give it another go later and just play through it because I did enjoy the challenge of keeping up with the better players.
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Post by Q on Jan 6, 2022 10:07:33 GMT -5
I rangered the course that's being used in the Champions event, and there was a bit of lag, but none that caused any issues when playing. Love ya Sroel, couldn't be more spot on in this thread. Not every course can be a superstar and frankly if someone is getting Tour Worthy for the first time (or the first time in a while), we love featuring them here. People can work really hard on some of these courses and It feels nice to reward them for it as a Tour Worthy rating is still quite an accomplishment! Courses you are mentioning as great have all been used in different tours and we still have loads of unused tour worthy courses ready to go (reason why we made TW harder to get). That being said, I quite enjoyed this one (most of what you pointed out was intentional) more than a few on your list for playability alone. As for lag we literally have rangers playing on beat up old consoles to test and even testing with alternative societies dont even show lag. Some courses that never lagged in the past now do while other laggy ones seem to be "cured". Even if rangers point out some lag we still end up using them because it's such a common problem that it's unavoidable at this point. In the end we're all human, unpaid, and volunteers who make mistakes, I certainly do and the plat boys let me know lol.
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Post by twofor22 on Jan 6, 2022 10:31:00 GMT -5
I played the third round of that event earlier and for some reason there wasn't really any lag at all this time except on the 16th green, which led to an unfortunate four putt double bogey.
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Post by cd06 on Jan 6, 2022 11:14:06 GMT -5
I am curious as to how the courses are selected for the events. There have been some really subpar ones so far this season, including the current one (Vendgarn). I find it odd that TGC Tours seems to do such an awesome job with the design community, but struggles to select quality courses for their season events. Am I missing something here? Positively love TGC Tours and the organization that goes into each season running smoothly is wildly impressive. Seems that it could just be a tad better with more high quality courses in the rotation. FYI, Vendgarn was a top 10 finisher in the recent CC Design Contest and generally people loved it, myself included . I know it's just your opinion on the course, but schedulers, reviewers and rangers alike know it's a quality course, hence it being on tour. Hopefully this doesn't come across the wrong way, never my intention.
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Post by trailducker on Jan 6, 2022 11:14:34 GMT -5
Majonoza Bay, Kidnappers Lookout, Redtail River, Blackwater Marsh Club, Butter's Bay, Whisper Dunes, Surprise Mountain Resort, Pinnacles Golf Club, Lost Preserve, Yeti Creek CC - Black (personal favorite), El Dorado, Blind Rabbit Golf Club, South Yarra GC, Vintage Ranch, Top of the Lake Club, Rising Fawn Country Club, Reverand Green Golf Club, Chiang Mai, Thailand, Oasis Beach Golf Club, Persephone Golf Club, Whiskey Dunes - Tour, Falling Water Golf Club (another favorite), Whiskey Trails, White Pepper Dunes, St. Cyrus, Kaiuma Bay, Aristida Dunes Club (another favorite), Lake Sofia GC, Old Faroe Dunes, Salish Ridge Golf Club, The Rock. I keep a running list of courses I really enjoy that I think play beautifully. These are from the first few pages of that list. I think most, if not all, are approved and/or Tour worthy. I would also argue that every course listed above is significantly better than Vendgarn. I don't think Vendgarn is too difficult. Probably the opposite actually. I just think it is a sloppy course. Greenside bunkers that run with up to the green with zero rough or even fringe. Tiny strips of fairway between bunkers and rough that would never exist on an actual golf course. Bare ground immediately off the green. That is just in the first 3 or 4 holes. It isn't a terrible course, just seems like a rushed design with not a lot of attention to detail. To be fair, I imagine it is not an easy task to plan out an easy task to plan out an entire season of courses. I know it takes a lot of time and effort on my part just to select 30 courses per season for my society. I was just curious what the process is for the course selections since there are are tons of better courses that could have likely been used instead. Appreciate you explaining how that works! Just a question but are you aware what a Sandbelt course is? Because that’s the style this is going for. Bunkers cut into all the surfaces on that style of course. Just look up South Yarra for another version of it. Now could some of the surfaces be a bit more tighter at these traditions? Yes and Axel the designer I assume would say that’s a fair critique. A bit of benefit of the doubt is that is extremely difficult to pull off everywhere. This course was top 10 in the recent CC comp for a reason. I assume those technical aspects of his held it off from going further but to say it’s a bad course most would argue isn’t quite accurate. There’s also been a handful of way more questionable courses on your then this one.
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Post by jwtexan on Jan 6, 2022 11:17:33 GMT -5
My record as a scheduler is impeccable. I will not be questioned.
Seriously though, to be honest it is a bit random how I choose my courses. I'll happily admit that I tend to focus on courses coming out of the latest design contest when those publish deadlines come up, just because those are more proven designers giving it their all in a contest so it usually produces top courses. Other times of the year I go through the completed courses thread, find something I like, and send it to the rangers. Or I've even found courses that aren't on the threads at all by looking through the latest courses that are marked tour worthy. Tpetro is a perfect example of that. He had been submitting courses to the database for months, but didn't know about the forums. I found a course of his called "Olde Mill" that I thought was outstanding. Mentioned it on the forums, and he got a tour spot. Now he is a big contributor to the design community here.
More than a few times a year though, I also try to find a designer that is newer and has produced a gem, and feature them as well, even if it isn't top shelf just yet. Everyone needs their shot and honestly getting one of your first few courses on tour is a huge learning opportunity because of the positive and yes negative feedback that can come with it. Being able to go to the tgctours scoreboard page and actually see how each hole performed in different conditions is a big deal. You can learn what works and what doesn't in design by seeing how it plays when hundreds or thousands of users go at it over a week and the tgctours stats pages are a very nice way to utilize that data. Also it is probably just a soft spot in me because I remember when my first course was put on tour and how that inspired me to keep going and get better as a designer.
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Post by zacheroni on Jan 6, 2022 14:55:50 GMT -5
Everybody in this thread has nailed it with their responses. I don't really have anything to add other than, people have tons of different opinions on the same course. Some people won't look at a course the same way as another person.
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