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Post by greyosprey on Apr 5, 2022 21:04:58 GMT -5
Just curious. What happens if you don't reach $12K in donations? That will be the end. ... Just out of curiosity, and no idea as to the legal aspect of it, have you guys given any consideration to some type of monthly or yearly membership fee? While no guarantee to break even, it has to provide a little more of a guarantee than donations alone. |
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Post by SmilingGoats on Apr 5, 2022 21:35:56 GMT -5
We've discussed it in the past. It isn't really something we're keen on doing. The whole dynamic of the site changes when people shift from donors to customers. The expectations are different. The vibe is different. The responsibilities are different.
It's also not a business model that would ever be profitable considering how many man-hours it takes to run, most of which is done presently by volunteers. We could never hire people to do what the community now does for free. And I'm not sure it would be right to expect people to continue volunteering for free in support of a then membership-based business model.
There are some legal considerations, though, we'd mostly be fine on that. I do, even now, sometimes have to answer complaint letters from law firms. It is nice being able to point out that we do not profit in any way from what we're doing. If that were to change, we would have to accept that we're taking on additional liability, which likely wouldn't be worth it for a business model that wouldn't be profitable (as noted above).
So I know it seems like it would be a viable solution. But in reality, it changes a ton. And donations should work...I mean we're really not asking for that much considering the volume of people that participate on the site.
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Post by TimB on Apr 6, 2022 4:45:22 GMT -5
And donations should work...I mean we're really not asking for that much considering the volume of people that participate on the site. Sadly they arn't working. we are past the halfway mark of the season and it doesn't look promising. I know you guys may be reluctant to do this, not wanting to appear like you are begging or pushing too hard. But a monthly email to all members explaining the donation issue, ramifications of not meeting the goal and a request for even a small donation would be of great help to this site. Also just keeping this thread active so it doesn't get lost in the noise of all the other threads and posts going on. |
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Post by SkyBlueBen on Apr 7, 2022 16:03:05 GMT -5
Sadly I believe the majority of people who frequent the tours are oblivious to its needs and will only notice there is an issue if the site was to close down.
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Post by Brenelan on Apr 7, 2022 16:10:22 GMT -5
And donations should work...I mean we're really not asking for that much considering the volume of people that participate on the site. Sadly they arn't working. we are past the halfway mark of the season and it doesn't look promising. I know you guys may be reluctant to do this, not wanting to appear like you are begging or pushing too hard. But a monthly email to all members explaining the donation issue, ramifications of not meeting the goal and a request for even a small donation would be of great help to this site. Also just keeping this thread active so it doesn't get lost in the noise of all the other threads and posts going on. Appreciate y'all bumping this every once in a while, I was overdue to make a donation. |
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Post by Cecil Harvey on Apr 25, 2022 2:55:33 GMT -5
We've discussed it in the past. It isn't really something we're keen on doing. The whole dynamic of the site changes when people shift from donors to customers. The expectations are different. The vibe is different. The responsibilities are different. It's also not a business model that would ever be profitable considering how many man-hours it takes to run, most of which is done presently by volunteers. We could never hire people to do what the community now does for free. And I'm not sure it would be right to expect people to continue volunteering for free in support of a then membership-based business model. There are some legal considerations, though, we'd mostly be fine on that. I do, even now, sometimes have to answer complaint letters from law firms. It is nice being able to point out that we do not profit in any way from what we're doing. If that were to change, we would have to accept that we're taking on additional liability, which likely wouldn't be worth it for a business model that wouldn't be profitable (as noted above). So I know it seems like it would be a viable solution. But in reality, it changes a ton. And donations should work...I mean we're really not asking for that much considering the volume of people that participate on the site. Sadly that 100% perfectly reasonable take is lost on many (but not all) of the active player base. A large portion of the active player base, IMO, do not take part in these forums sadly, and are unaware that it is supported by voluntary donations. I just wonder if a post or sticky within each of the PC/XB/PS TGCT Societies would add a meaningful amount to get to the season goal or not. Not a pleading post, but simply pointing out that the matter of fact that this site needs donations to survive. Just my 2 pennies here. |
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Post by Giraffe72 on Apr 25, 2022 5:40:10 GMT -5
I would really love it if we could get the recurring donations going again. A direct debit out of my account every month worked for me. Since that stopped I've made one donation but it's normally pushed to the back of my priorities, especially with the money situation a lot of us now find ourselves in. £75 to fill my little car up!  Get those going and then have a little push on recruiting recurring donors. I didn't notice £6 a month so much and would go back to that. Over a year that adds up and if enough people go the same way you'd soon reach your goals. It would be a great shame if this site went just because not enough people knew. |
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Post by sandsaver01 on Apr 25, 2022 5:59:44 GMT -5
I mentioned this in a previous post but got no response; eliminate the "Ad Free" provision on the site and save $81 a month. I can ignore ads and I am sure others can as well.
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Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Apr 25, 2022 9:49:00 GMT -5
If anything gets turned into a 'pay-to-play' format, you might consider charging designers per submission (and I say this as a designer on pg2 of listings by # approved  ) or even let them 'buy' an event on their course which they can name, & choose it's tees/pins/conditions ?? TGCT Admins lose some quality control, obviously, with that model, but based on forum & in-game chatter, it's not like they're currently pleasing everyone, all the time.
I venture that "Pay $250 to Sponsor your own event" is more appealing to folks with disposable income than "Pay $10 to see your name at the bottom of a CC-I leaderboard".
What about soliciting ACTUAL sponsors instead of retaining the oddball events ( when was the last season that the "Vietnam Open" was on a SE Asia-style course, for example) that currently exist ?? C'mon all of you business owners & managers who play here, step up and 2000 people will see your company's name for 4 rounds. 
p.s.thought - Does TGCT have any demographic numbers to offer potential sponsors - how many members are 'real life' golfers, age groups, and thus targetable for online merchandisers of gloves, tees, etcetera ? After all "golf equipment online" results in 299 MILLION Google matches.
pps - I'm retired on SocSecurity, and not the healthiest guy, so I likely don't have an extra few bucks except in the best of months, sorry.
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Post by sroel908 on Apr 25, 2022 10:34:57 GMT -5
If anything gets turned into a 'pay-to-play' format, you might consider charging designers per submission (and I say this as a designer on pg2 of listings by # approved ) or even let them 'buy' an event on their course which they can name, & choose it's tees/pins/conditions ?? TGCT Admins lose some quality control, obviously, with that model, but based on forum & in-game chatter, it's not like they're currently pleasing everyone, all the time.
I venture that "Pay $250 to Sponsor your own event" is more appealing to folks with disposable income than "Pay $10 to see your name at the bottom of a CC-I leaderboard".
What about soliciting ACTUAL sponsors instead of retaining the oddball events ( when was the last season that the "Vietnam Open" was on a SE Asia-style course, for example) that currently exist ?? C'mon all of you business owners & managers who play here, step up and 2000 people will see your company's name for 4 rounds.
p.s.thought - Does TGCT have any demographic numbers to offer potential sponsors - how many members are 'real life' golfers, age groups, and thus targetable for online merchandisers of gloves, tees, etcetera ? After all "golf equipment online" results in 299 MILLION Google matches.
pps - I'm retired on SocSecurity, and not the healthiest guy, so I likely don't have an extra few bucks except in the best of months, sorry.
I think ideas on how to raise money are always interesting and worth looking at, but allowing people to pay to have courses put on tour would not be great. Charging designers to submit courses at all is even worse, IMO. What happens when the course submissions dry up, and the only courses people paying to submit are not "Tour Worthy"-level? People complain about the courses used now (my own course got destroyed last week on CC as being a "softball" course and a "birdiefest"...it yielded some insanely low scores and people were pretty salty about it because everyone hates fun, I guess). I know that will always been the case; people will complain about each and every course put on tour. And it will never change, no matter where the courses come from and how they get selected. Now imagine it's a goofball course that allows you to shoot holes-in-one on every shot? Or is an auto-gen nightmare that doesn't have legal pins on the slowest green speeds? There still needs to be a level of QA, and not just a pay-to-play system when it comes to course submissions and scheduling. Also, allowing people to pay to have courses on tour kind of defeats the open community we have here, and would shut a lot of people out who might otherwise get some visibility in the virtual golf course design world. I do like the thought of sponsoring an event instead...that would better fit the tours I believe. |
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Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Apr 25, 2022 18:46:45 GMT -5
If anything gets turned into a 'pay-to-play' format, you might consider charging designers per submission (and I say this as a designer on pg2 of listings by # approved ) or even let them 'buy' an event on their course which they can name, & choose it's tees/pins/conditions ?? TGCT Admins lose some quality control, obviously, with that model, but based on forum & in-game chatter, it's not like they're currently pleasing everyone, all the time.
I venture that "Pay $250 to Sponsor your own event" is more appealing to folks with disposable income than "Pay $10 to see your name at the bottom of a CC-I leaderboard".
What about soliciting ACTUAL sponsors instead of retaining the oddball events ( when was the last season that the "Vietnam Open" was on a SE Asia-style course, for example) that currently exist ?? C'mon all of you business owners & managers who play here, step up and 2000 people will see your company's name for 4 rounds.
p.s.thought - Does TGCT have any demographic numbers to offer potential sponsors - how many members are 'real life' golfers, age groups, and thus targetable for online merchandisers of gloves, tees, etcetera ? After all "golf equipment online" results in 299 MILLION Google matches.
pps - I'm retired on SocSecurity, and not the healthiest guy, so I likely don't have an extra few bucks except in the best of months, sorry.
I think ideas on how to raise money are always interesting and worth looking at, but allowing people to pay to have courses put on tour would not be great. Charging designers to submit courses at all is even worse, IMO. What happens when the course submissions dry up, and the only courses people paying to submit are not "Tour Worthy"-level? People complain about the courses used now (my own course got destroyed last week on CC as being a "softball" course and a "birdiefest"...it yielded some insanely low scores and people were pretty salty about it because everyone hates fun, I guess). I know that will always been the case; people will complain about each and every course put on tour. And it will never change, no matter where the courses come from and how they get selected. Now imagine it's a goofball course that allows you to shoot holes-in-one on every shot? Or is an auto-gen nightmare that doesn't have legal pins on the slowest green speeds? There still needs to be a level of QA, and not just a pay-to-play system when it comes to course submissions and scheduling. Also, allowing people to pay to have courses on tour kind of defeats the open community we have here, and would shut a lot of people out who might otherwise get some visibility in the virtual golf course design world. I do like the thought of sponsoring an event instead...that would better fit the tours I believe. I can see your points, but aren't there literally thousands of good courses already submitted ?
Reach out to those creators first ... who knows ? Even my wife might go in for budgeting a "Bobaloo Classic" to be played, he-he.
As you say, even the best courses have detractors. And a chunk of those just do NOT understand what the CC tours are intended to be, honestly.
But I'd think TGCT players must be a viable market in some way, and it certainly doesn't fly in the face of the 'spirit' of golf these days to go commercial. I don't doubt that soliciting would be hard work in & of itself - selling is not for everyone.
Thanks for the give-n-take, Steve !
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Post by sroel908 on Apr 25, 2022 19:07:46 GMT -5
I think ideas on how to raise money are always interesting and worth looking at, but allowing people to pay to have courses put on tour would not be great. Charging designers to submit courses at all is even worse, IMO. What happens when the course submissions dry up, and the only courses people paying to submit are not "Tour Worthy"-level? People complain about the courses used now (my own course got destroyed last week on CC as being a "softball" course and a "birdiefest"...it yielded some insanely low scores and people were pretty salty about it because everyone hates fun, I guess). I know that will always been the case; people will complain about each and every course put on tour. And it will never change, no matter where the courses come from and how they get selected. Now imagine it's a goofball course that allows you to shoot holes-in-one on every shot? Or is an auto-gen nightmare that doesn't have legal pins on the slowest green speeds? There still needs to be a level of QA, and not just a pay-to-play system when it comes to course submissions and scheduling. Also, allowing people to pay to have courses on tour kind of defeats the open community we have here, and would shut a lot of people out who might otherwise get some visibility in the virtual golf course design world. I do like the thought of sponsoring an event instead...that would better fit the tours I believe. I can see your points, but aren't there literally thousands of good courses already submitted ?
Reach out to those creators first ... who knows ? Even my wife might go in for budgeting a "Bobaloo Classic" to be played, he-he.
As you say, even the best courses have detractors. And a chunk of those just do NOT understand what the CC tours are intended to be, honestly.
But I'd think TGCT players must be a viable market in some way, and it certainly doesn't fly in the face of the 'spirit' of golf these days to go commercial. I don't doubt that soliciting would be hard work in & of itself - selling is not for everyone.
Thanks for the give-n-take, Steve !
Sure thing, Bob! I also see your points. There are so very many courses in the database by amazing designers, that is true. But how many of those folks would stop if a paywall got added? Heck, even some of the more well-known designers are simply hanging 'em up due to burnout or lack of time. A system that would require payment to even submit a course would cause the number of designers willing to do it to dwindle even more. I also see the future designs and designers being most hindered by the addition of a submission fee. Anyone who would be interested in designing, and would want to put a first course out there for review, would have to pay for their course to even be considered? It takes many designers multiple tries before they even get an approved course. I guess you could still get feedback before submitting, but that's pretty daunting to say to someone who's never submitted a course that they have to pony up even before it could get an official review. I could see people sponsoring events, in that they could spend some money to name it...and maybe as a middle ground, they could choose a course from the Tour Worthy list to be the host of that event. That way, there's no cost to designers to submit, and you could theoretically choose you own course design if it was deemed TW. The QA stays in place, people can still submit freely, and TGCT can pull in a bit of additional money in the process. |
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Post by fransslabak on Apr 26, 2022 3:19:24 GMT -5
What I don't get is that if you go to the main website and you are logged in, there is no special button or big newsflash or something that catches your eye to ask for donations... Surely, that would help?
If you're logged off (and maybe new), there is a question somewhere "down there" about whether this site costs money but once again, there is nothing to immediately draw attention to making donations...
So, attention to donations now needs to come from people that happen to stumble upon this thread...
This confuses me - if donations are needed, why not promote them more?
Best wishes
Frans
PS Before anyone asks - yes, I already have made a donation
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Post by SkyBlueBen on Apr 26, 2022 6:40:50 GMT -5
I would really love it if we could get the recurring donations going again. A direct debit out of my account every month worked for me. Since that stopped I've made one donation but it's normally pushed to the back of my priorities, especially with the money situation a lot of us now find ourselves in. £75 to fill my little car up!  Get those going and then have a little push on recruiting recurring donors. I didn't notice £6 a month so much and would go back to that. Over a year that adds up and if enough people go the same way you'd soon reach your goals. It would be a great shame if this site went just because not enough people knew. Agree totally. The direct debit was spot on and going out just after pay day I didn't even notice it. And us old folks are forgetful!! |
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nunzio0108
Caddy
Posts: 68 
Tour: Challenge Circuit
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Post by nunzio0108 on Apr 26, 2022 23:35:20 GMT -5
Why can't TGC Tours ask HB Studios and 2k to help financially? If TGC Tours stops a lot of players will not buy the game anymore as TGC Tours is such a big part of the Golf Club.
TGC Tours could charge a yearly fee to play the tour.
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) or even let them 'buy' an event on their course which they can name, & choose it's tees/pins/conditions ?? TGCT Admins lose some quality control, obviously, with that model, but based on forum & in-game chatter, it's not like they're currently pleasing everyone, all the time.
